Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

2019-20 State Of The Habs


H_T_L
 Share

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I saw it as a bad trade for sure! think about it who was going to replace Sergachev? much much harder to find good Dmen than forwards. and even though he was young he had all the right stuff to be very good and he is. Drouin was already a question mark with Tampa and small, skill is there but many more question marks even then.

Same here. The major problem I had with the deal at the time was that wingers can usually be signed in free agency. Scoring centers and legit top 4 defencemen? Not really, usually you'll have to trade for them and give up additional assets. Bergevin pulled the trigger (giving up additional assets in the process!) and the whole Drouin becoming-a-centre experiment clearly didn't work out, so we ended up trading a legit top 4 Dman (who was regarded as such back then, possibly even top 2) for a ~50-point winger with no defensive game to speak of. Now we're extremely thin at LD while Drouin is what he is, a guy with a tantalizing toolset and glaring consistency issues. If he's on his game, wow, if not he's arguably our worst forward on the ice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

  at the time I thought the trade was fair value ...a guy with a 'tantalizing toolset " coming to a team that was roundly criticised every day for lack of offence and centres for an as yet unproven commodity in Sergachev ...I thought it was a fair trade-off ...Sergachev has proven to be a decent D-man but not all top 10 draft picks make it to star status ...including Drouin at this point ....this series isn't over yet ...maybe he will do something to change people's minds 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  at the time I thought the trade was fair value ...a guy with a 'tantalizing toolset " coming to a team that was roundly criticised every day for lack of offence and centres for an as yet unproven commodity in Sergachev ...I thought it was a fair trade-off ...Sergachev has proven to be a decent D-man but not all top 10 draft picks make it to star status ...including Drouin at this point ....this series isn't over yet ...maybe he will do something to change people's minds 

It was a fair trade at the time.  We were getting a proven, young player for a prospect with 4 NHL games to his name.  Drouin, was what, 22? - and had over 150 games in the NHL, including a +50 point season and a nearly PPG playoff run the year earlier through several rounds.  He was a proven entity - Sergachev was (highly touted) risk.   

Tampa Bay made this trade to mitigate their loses in the expansion draft and this way they could open up Drouin's spot (Sergachev was exempt).

 

Im not saying it was the right move but you cant re-write history either.  TB took a huge gamble, giving up a proven player for a prospect.  Teams do that all the time but usually the player they are giving up are at, or past, their prime.     


It turns out that Sergachev has played very well for them.. and drouin has - at best - stalled to where he was when we traded for him... but the deal was not lopsided when made.. it was just a dumb one based on our needs. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

It was a fair trade at the time.  We were getting a proven, young player for a prospect with 4 NHL games to his name.  Drouin, was what, 22? - and had over 150 games in the NHL, including a +50 point season and a nearly PPG playoff run the year earlier through several rounds.  He was a proven entity - Sergachev was (highly touted) risk.   

Tampa Bay made this trade to mitigate their loses in the expansion draft and this way they could open up Drouin's spot (Sergachev was exempt).

 

Im not saying it was the right move but you cant re-write history either.  TB took a huge gamble, giving up a proven player for a prospect.  Teams do that all the time but usually the player they are giving up are at, or past, their prime.     


It turns out that Sergachev has played very well for them.. and drouin has - at best - stalled to where he was when we traded for him... but the deal was not lopsided when made.. it was just a dumb one based on our needs. 

 

 

Drouin was not really proven! he showed flashes but i would not call him proven. that being said Sergachev was an unkown to some extent but most folks around the league were pretty high on him and we needed him more in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

Drouin was not really proven! he showed flashes but i would not call him proven. that being said Sergachev was an unkown to some extent but most folks around the league were pretty high on him and we needed him more in my opinion.

He was proven as an NHL player. That is indisputable. 

He had nearly 100 points in just over 160 NHL games when we traded for him. Thats a proven NHL player.   Sergachev had played 4 games.   

Again, i never said i liked the trade or that it was the right trade for us. What I am saying is that if it was lopsided at all at the time, it was in our favour.  Tampa incurred the much higher risk.  In the end it worked out for them but there were not guarantees. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, maas_art said:

He was proven as an NHL player. That is indisputable. 

He had nearly 100 points in just over 160 NHL games when we traded for him. Thats a proven NHL player.   Sergachev had played 4 games.   

Again, i never said i liked the trade or that it was the right trade for us. What I am saying is that if it was lopsided at all at the time, it was in our favour.  Tampa incurred the much higher risk.  In the end it worked out for them but there were not guarantees. 

Still don't agree about Drouin but that's is fine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

Still don't agree about Drouin but that's is fine. 

The problem most of us had with that trade initially is that we had two gaping team holes,,,,center and left D.  Neither of those were addressed with that move.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, maas_art said:

It was a fair trade at the time.  We were getting a proven, young player for a prospect with 4 NHL games to his name.  Drouin, was what, 22? - and had over 150 games in the NHL, including a +50 point season and a nearly PPG playoff run the year earlier through several rounds.  He was a proven entity - Sergachev was (highly touted) risk.   

Tampa Bay made this trade to mitigate their loses in the expansion draft and this way they could open up Drouin's spot (Sergachev was exempt).

 

Im not saying it was the right move but you cant re-write history either.  TB took a huge gamble, giving up a proven player for a prospect.  Teams do that all the time but usually the player they are giving up are at, or past, their prime.     


It turns out that Sergachev has played very well for them.. and drouin has - at best - stalled to where he was when we traded for him... but the deal was not lopsided when made.. it was just a dumb one based on our needs. 

 

 

 I agree with what you say except that it was a dumb trade based on our needs at the time ...those were our needs at the time and we gave up an unproven 9th overall for a still very young  3rd overall ..Drouin's talent was undeniable but he wouldn't be the first NHLer in the first 3 or 4  years not to live up to expectations ...At the time as well Tampa couldn't offer him the money he wanted and the term because they were up against the cap ..lots of pundits thought Montreal stole him at the time considering what he did in the play-offs the year before . Some people are basing the results of the trade on our present LHD need . That being said I thought a real stinker was trading away a young McDonagh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yep and we still have one of those holes! center seems to shaping up ok

I was one of the guys happy with getting JD when the trade went down because i thought it added to our offense. Didn't expect them to try to fill our #1 center need with a winger and further weaken our defensive depth to do it. It was a gamble that kind of blew up in our face. Not the worst trade this team has made but so far not working out in our favour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I saw it as a bad trade for sure! think about it who was going to replace Sergachev? much much harder to find good Dmen than forwards. and even though he was young he had all the right stuff to be very good and he is. Drouin was already a question mark with Tampa and small, skill is there but many more question marks even then.

I couldn't say it any better...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, H_T_L said:

I was one of the guys happy with getting JD when the trade went down because i thought it added to our offense. Didn't expect them to try to fill our #1 center need with a winger and further weaken our defensive depth to do it. It was a gamble that kind of blew up in our face. Not the worst trade this team has made but so far not working out in our favour

I too was happy with the trade and had even suggested going after Drouin when all of the trade talk was about other players. Les Canadienne without any French Canadian content seemed weird and Drouin had his problems with the hold out in Tampa. I still think this is a fair trade although Drouin worried me the first game back with the bad penalties. I though he turned a corner this year but then the injuries hit.  At this point we see a Sergachev who is playin less with the arrival of McDonaugh an Drouin trying to play injury free for a change. This playoff will be a good indicator of where Drouin stands. While I think Tampa has had a decent edge in this trade Sergachev is not yet a lock as a top 4 and Drouin is still a big question mark. A few more goals like last nights and a head to head with Tampa may be just what the doctor ordered to get a better update on this deal.

Hopefully it starts to swing a little more towards our favour. We have been given the answer to all the what ifs this year as injuries have been a big part of our difficulties, but alas now we can see just how effective a healthy Habs team can be. Time to enjoy the back to the future moment for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

I too was happy with the trade and had even suggested going after Drouin when all of the trade talk was about other players. Les Canadienne without any French Canadian content seemed weird and Drouin had his problems with the hold out in Tampa. I still think this is a fair trade although Drouin worried me the first game back with the bad penalties. I though he turned a corner this year but then the injuries hit.  At this point we see a Sergachev who is playin less with the arrival of McDonaugh an Drouin trying to play injury free for a change. This playoff will be a good indicator of where Drouin stands. While I think Tampa has had a decent edge in this trade Sergachev is not yet a lock as a top 4 and Drouin is still a big question mark. A few more goals like last nights and a head to head with Tampa may be just what the doctor ordered to get a better update on this deal.

Hopefully it starts to swing a little more towards our favour. We have been given the answer to all the what ifs this year as injuries have been a big part of our difficulties, but alas now we can see just how effective a healthy Habs team can be. Time to enjoy the back to the future moment for sure.

JD's game changed after that goal. He actually pushed the puck forward from that point on with a couple shots on net to boot. Didn't see the patented telegraphed drop pass after that. Somebody has to tell him to stop making those obvious plays to the point on the PP from the half wall. He needs to make more plays to the net to be effective on that 1st wave. Maybe he will break out if we somehow get past these Pens

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think winning this series might end up being the worst thing that could happen to us. The way things are shaping up, we'd likely draw Tampa next round and then potentially Philly and then potentially Washington and then the best from the West. Odds that we win 4 best-of-7 series against the best remaining teams? Pretty darn low. So we're throwing away a top 10 pick and 1/8 chance at Lafreniere for this. Not the Habs fault for trying to win, but the NHL's decision to include us in the post-season is really screwing us over.

That said, some positives to come from the line-up changes yesterday. It took Julien an entire year to start getting the lines going in the right direction, but we finally saw Danault put next to Lehkonen and put on a true checking line, which is where he belongs. I've been advocating this for a long time, so I'm happy to see it. Likewise, I've been calling for a reunion of Drouin-JK-Armia since we saw that line work so well to start the season, so that makes sense to me too.  And giving your best center in Suzuki the best wingers also makes sense. It's almost like CJ finally woke up with respect to his lines and I don't know what took him so long nor do I know if he'll stick with it, but it's a nice start.

Up front, the only things that don't make much sense right now are how to fit Domi in and why Weal is still with the team and not sitting behind Evans/Poehling every night. Domi, like JK and Galchenyuk and Pacioretty before him, is a skill player who really isn't going to give you full value playing with scrubs on the 4th line. Weal and Weise are probably the worst two linemates we could choose for him. Evans and Poehling would have been a step up, but even then, they're not fantastic. Byron's playing well, but one option would be to move Domi up onto a line with Danault and Lehkonen, leaving you with Byron-Poehling-Weise/Evans as your 4th line. It makes more sense to give those players 7-8 minutes a game than to give Domi less ice time. Sadly, it looks like Domi's days here may be numbered.

On D, I still think Chiarot is overrated and is getting caught out of position around his own net too much. Weber and Petry and Kulak have been stellar though and are carrying the team. The 3rd pair, in contrast, has been awful. Ouellet has been the better of the two, albeit hard to know how to judge Mete when he's being asked to play the wrong side of the ice. I'd much rather see Juulsen or even Fleury on their natural side of the ice on the right and leave one of Mete or Ouellet on the left. So a few things left for Julien to get right, but at least we're making some progress.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I think winning this series might end up being the worst thing that could happen to us. The way things are shaping up, we'd likely draw Tampa next round and then potentially Philly and then potentially Washington and then the best from the West. Odds that we win 4 best-of-7 series against the best remaining teams? Pretty darn low. So we're throwing away a top 10 pick and 1/8 chance at Lafreniere for this. Not the Habs fault for trying to win, but the NHL's decision to include us in the post-season is really screwing us over.

That said, some positives to come from the line-up changes yesterday. It took Julien an entire year to start getting the lines going in the right direction, but we finally saw Danault put next to Lehkonen and put on a true checking line, which is where he belongs. I've been advocating this for a long time, so I'm happy to see it. Likewise, I've been calling for a reunion of Drouin-JK-Armia since we saw that line work so well to start the season, so that makes sense to me too.  And giving your best center in Suzuki the best wingers also makes sense. It's almost like CJ finally woke up with respect to his lines and I don't know what took him so long nor do I know if he'll stick with it, but it's a nice start.

Up front, the only things that don't make much sense right now are how to fit Domi in and why Weal is still with the team and not sitting behind Evans/Poehling every night. Domi, like JK and Galchenyuk and Pacioretty before him, is a skill player who really isn't going to give you full value playing with scrubs on the 4th line. Weal and Weise are probably the worst two linemates we could choose for him. Evans and Poehling would have been a step up, but even then, they're not fantastic. Byron's playing well, but one option would be to move Domi up onto a line with Danault and Lehkonen, leaving you with Byron-Poehling-Weise/Evans as your 4th line. It makes more sense to give those players 7-8 minutes a game than to give Domi less ice time. Sadly, it looks like Domi's days here may be numbered.

On D, I still think Chiarot is overrated and is getting caught out of position around his own net too much. Weber and Petry and Kulak have been stellar though and are carrying the team. The 3rd pair, in contrast, has been awful. Ouellet has been the better of the two, albeit hard to know how to judge Mete when he's being asked to play the wrong side of the ice. I'd much rather see Juulsen or even Fleury on their natural side of the ice on the right and leave one of Mete or Ouellet on the left. So a few things left for Julien to get right, but at least we're making some progress.

 

 

 

 

I am in the anybody but the Flyers mode as they seem to be our toughest opponent these days. We have good results against Tampa, Boston or Washington. We can still improve our skating which is a huge asset. Hopefully Pitt doesn't get Lafreniere either if we knock them out.

I am not sure how final any of these changes are but given some of our youth have grown by almost a full year since the start of the season Julien appears to be ready to trust them a little more. We have an abundance of average to above average talent but have not really developed any superstars. Some were upset with Domi going to the 4th line but he has proven himself to be a very streaky player. He seems to be getting in less trouble with the turnovers that have been a highly negative part of his game and his physicality (although I am still waiting to see some of this) is more suited to this role especially with a Byron who has speed to burn. I would like to see Domi stick around but he may start feeling the heat from some youth soon and he is the newest Hab to be making blind passes to no one again. Poehling has struggled and I thought Evans was our best answer but he seems to leave himself open to some vicious hits that are resulting in injury. We have had our share of tough breaks be it Shaw, Reway, Bozon and Ikonen who have all had their careers ended or close to it, so hopefully Evans will not be another one. JK appears to be back, but Armia still has room to improve as does Drouin, although Drouin appears to be playing much better. If Drouin can return to the player we had at the start of the year that line should be very effective. Lehkonen and Byron have also stepped up, and look very good. 

Ironically Julien appears to be doing a better job as of late. There were quite a few games this year where I felt he did not have the team ready to play including the first preseason game against the Leafs. The defense hanging in there for now and appear to be making life a little easier for Carey who is doing a great job of slowing the play down and diminishing the number of turnovers in our end. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I think winning this series might end up being the worst thing that could happen to us. The way things are shaping up, we'd likely draw Tampa next round and then potentially Philly and then potentially Washington and then the best from the West. Odds that we win 4 best-of-7 series against the best remaining teams? Pretty darn low. So we're throwing away a top 10 pick and 1/8 chance at Lafreniere for this. Not the Habs fault for trying to win, but the NHL's decision to include us in the post-season is really screwing us over.

That said, some positives to come from the line-up changes yesterday. It took Julien an entire year to start getting the lines going in the right direction, but we finally saw Danault put next to Lehkonen and put on a true checking line, which is where he belongs. I've been advocating this for a long time, so I'm happy to see it. Likewise, I've been calling for a reunion of Drouin-JK-Armia since we saw that line work so well to start the season, so that makes sense to me too.  And giving your best center in Suzuki the best wingers also makes sense. It's almost like CJ finally woke up with respect to his lines and I don't know what took him so long nor do I know if he'll stick with it, but it's a nice start.

Up front, the only things that don't make much sense right now are how to fit Domi in and why Weal is still with the team and not sitting behind Evans/Poehling every night. Domi, like JK and Galchenyuk and Pacioretty before him, is a skill player who really isn't going to give you full value playing with scrubs on the 4th line. Weal and Weise are probably the worst two linemates we could choose for him. Evans and Poehling would have been a step up, but even then, they're not fantastic. Byron's playing well, but one option would be to move Domi up onto a line with Danault and Lehkonen, leaving you with Byron-Poehling-Weise/Evans as your 4th line. It makes more sense to give those players 7-8 minutes a game than to give Domi less ice time. Sadly, it looks like Domi's days here may be numbered.

On D, I still think Chiarot is overrated and is getting caught out of position around his own net too much. Weber and Petry and Kulak have been stellar though and are carrying the team. The 3rd pair, in contrast, has been awful. Ouellet has been the better of the two, albeit hard to know how to judge Mete when he's being asked to play the wrong side of the ice. I'd much rather see Juulsen or even Fleury on their natural side of the ice on the right and leave one of Mete or Ouellet on the left. So a few things left for Julien to get right, but at least we're making some progress.

Agree with pretty much everything here Ted.


The idea of winning being a bad thing is probably true, but honestly what can you do. Like you said: you give those guys a shot & they are going to take it.   IMHO as long as we dont lose the next round, Im ok with the run.  Even losing in the "second" round (our 3rd) would be ok because of the experience some of these kids (and vets - these are Domi's first playoffs and even Petry only has 21 career playoff games!).  Obviously getting a generational talent like Laf would be preferable but getting 9th OVA vs. JK, Suzuki etc valuable playoff experience... not quite as terrible. 

 

I also agree about the lines.  Still some work to do but easily the best lines we've seen from Julien all year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Unfortunately it looks like Evans might be doing concussion protocol ...I thought he played decently well and is a bigger body than Weal ...if the point of the exercise is to get some play-off experience for the young guys than I'm all for putting in either Juulsen or Fleury (for #61) and Poehling for Evan's spot ...I even think Belzile would be worth a shot ....these guys are playing for their pride right now and although I never like the idea of giving up a shot at #1 (or the idea of this obvious money grab) I'm liking the emerging  team chemistry 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 Unfortunately it looks like Evans might be doing concussion protocol ...I thought he played decently well and is a bigger body than Weal ...if the point of the exercise is to get some play-off experience for the young guys than I'm all for putting in either Juulsen or Fleury (for #61) and Poehling for Evan's spot ...I even think Belzile would be worth a shot ....these guys are playing for their pride right now and although I never like the idea of giving up a shot at #1 (or the idea of this obvious money grab) I'm liking the emerging  team chemistry 

I also would put Poehling & either Juulsen or Fleury in for Ouellet.

I think Belzille is still hurt? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Agree with pretty much everything here Ted.


The idea of winning being a bad thing is probably true, but honestly what can you do. Like you said: you give those guys a shot & they are going to take it.   IMHO as long as we dont lose the next round, Im ok with the run.  Even losing in the "second" round (our 3rd) would be ok because of the experience some of these kids (and vets - these are Domi's first playoffs and even Petry only has 21 career playoff games!).  Obviously getting a generational talent like Laf would be preferable but getting 9th OVA vs. JK, Suzuki etc valuable playoff experience... not quite as terrible. 

 

I also agree about the lines.  Still some work to do but easily the best lines we've seen from Julien all year. 

I'd be okay with a run if we made the conference finals. Anything less isn't worth much to me, to be honest. It's funny, because if you think of things the other way, I highly doubt anyone would be okay with a playoff run of 1 or 2 rounds. If I told you we had Lafreniere in our organization and that we could make a guaranteed 3-round playoff run but would get knocked out in the Eastern conference semis and that as compensation for that playoff experience, we would be forced to trade Lafreniere for the 16th overall pick, would you do it? Would 3 rounds of NHL playoff experience for you be worth making that trade-off?

Even if you end up with the 9th pick, that's still a much better choice than 16th (or 28th if we make the ECF). Imagine having a chance at getting a player like Sergachev in the top 10 and instead trading that pick for a pick that lands you a guy like Beaulieu or Tinordi or Leblanc or Poehling or so on. And yes, I fully realize you could find Patrice Bergeron or Nik Lidstrom or PK Subban outside of the top 10 or outside of the first round, but history shows that top 10 picks are much more likely to be regular NHLers and stars than guys who are picked in the 2nd half of the first round. You'd have to think we're unlikely to have too many years where we get a 12.5% shot at 1st overall and especially in a year where the projected top pick is a Quebecer who has publicly stated he wants to play for the Habs. Seems like a bad time to miss out on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Even if you end up with the 9th pick, that's still a much better choice than 16th (or 28th if we make the ECF). Imagine having a chance at getting a player like Sergachev in the top 10 and instead trading that pick for a pick that lands you a guy like Beaulieu or Tinordi or Leblanc or Poehling or so on. And yes, I fully realize you could find Patrice Bergeron or Nik Lidstrom or PK Subban outside of the top 10 or outside of the first round, but history shows that top 10 picks are much more likely to be regular NHLers and stars than guys who are picked in the 2nd half of the first round. You'd have to think we're unlikely to have too many years where we get a 12.5% shot at 1st overall and especially in a year where the projected top pick is a Quebecer who has publicly stated he wants to play for the Habs. Seems like a bad time to miss out on that.

I would like short term pain for long term gain with a Penguins comeback - not so much for a shot against Laf but picks 9 39,40 is better than 16, 39 and 47 and so forth. At 9 we have a shot at Perfetti Holtz and Quinn vs 16 Jarvis, Holloway Mercer and the eggs risk of Lapierre. However it is a deep draft and will be interesting. The 2nd part is that a series win validates Bergevin even more that he’s on the right track when the reality is we miss contending pieces despite a lot of character and heart on the team

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, claremont said:

I would like short term pain for long term gain with a Penguins comeback - not so much for a shot against Laf but picks 9 39,40 is better than 16, 39 and 47 and so forth. At 9 we have a shot at Perfetti Holtz and Quinn vs 16 Jarvis, Holloway Mercer and the eggs risk of Lapierre. However it is a deep draft and will be interesting. The 2nd part is that a series win validates Bergevin even more that he’s on the right track when the reality is we miss contending pieces despite a lot of character and heart on the team

I feel the same way about all of this... it has been fun to watch... but the end result has to favor the future. A 12.5% chance of drafting Lafrenière (or a 9th overall pick should the lottery not go their way) sounds much more beneficial than a short-lived playoffs run…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, claremont said:

The 2nd part is that a series win validates Bergevin even more that he’s on the right track when the reality is we miss contending pieces despite a lot of character and heart on the team

Both can be true at the same time. Yes we’re missing a couple of contending pieces, but I think it is also true that we are on the right path. One good defensmen (maybe it’s Romanov) and one good forward (maybe it’s Caulfield) and wow, what a difference that would make. And their already in the system, toss in a big trade or FA signing in the off season, could make for a very interesting team next year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • H_T_L locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...