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2019-20 State Of The Habs


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Some very interesting (and telling) comments from Kotkaniemi and Bouchard:

"Frustrating is the right word. Things haven’t been going very well recently and I haven’t been playing much. It’s a new start here and I hope I have more ice time to allow myself to be successful. I did what I could with minutes from the third line and throwing the puck around the corner to get it.
The game systems here are clear. Everyone knows what his job is here, I like that,"
 
"I am happy with his attitude and his effort," said Bouchard. "By cons, there are five clips that I showed him and if he does that in the National League, he does not go to the fifth. He finishes on the third. Not because he’s a bad hockey player, but he can’t afford that in high caliber hockey. "
 
Proof again that some of our kids probably need some time under Bouchard.  He's made it clear over and over that he sees Laval as a "training ground" - he doesnt really care if he wins as long as the players are improving. In Montreal there's no time for training, its all about "Win the game."


Id almost like to see Poehling sent down too (I dont think Suzuki has anything to learn).  Let those guys fight hard down there, get a lot of minutes, and hopefully a deep playoff run. That would be very beneficial for all of our prospects  going forward. 
 
 
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43 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

"I am happy with his attitude and his effort," said Bouchard. "By cons, there are five clips that I showed him and if he does that in the National League, he does not go to the fifth. He finishes on the third. Not because he’s a bad hockey player, but he can’t afford that in high caliber hockey. "
 

Trying to puzzle out through the translation (and I read french and it still doesn't make sense) .. what he means by "does not go to the fifth"

Doesn't go 5th overall?  

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5 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Ok ... looking at the schedule and there is one and only one scenario that I can cheer for us to make the playoffs under.      That the last WC spot is between us and Toronto and on the last day of the season and we make it by beating them. (our last scheduled game is against them)

...or.....we prevent them from squeaking into the play-offs by beating them in a must-win game 

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19 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Trying to puzzle out through the translation (and I read french and it still doesn't make sense) .. what he means by "does not go to the fifth"

Doesn't go 5th overall?  

I'm going to take a stab at translating this vague reference to 5 clips . I read it as there are 5 no-nos for an NHLer . If you have 3 and aren't improving  in your game the Habs will not find you worth keeping or in other words you won't even get a peak at the 5th . I assume it has a lot to do with defensive responsibility , attitude , consistently making good decisions with the puck and work ethic .

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7 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

That's almost as good ... but it'd be just beautiful if we beat them in a shootout and their last chance was Matthews who shoots it wide.

 

Just now, arpem-can said:

I'm going to take a stab at translating this vague reference to 5 clips . I read it as there are 5 no-nos for an NHLer . If you have 3 and aren't improving  in your game the Habs will not find you worth keeping or in other words you won't even get a peak at the 5th . I assume it has a lot to do with defensive responsibility , attitude , consistently making good decisions with the puck and work ethic .

 

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8 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

That's almost as good ... but it'd be just beautiful if we beat them in a shootout and their last chance was Matthews who shoots it wide.

 and Leaf Nation watching the game in "Maple Leaf Square" wonder what happened and become silent and then abandon their Austin Matthews jerseys ….repeat rinse repeat  

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37 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Trying to puzzle out through the translation (and I read french and it still doesn't make sense) .. what he means by "does not go to the fifth"

Doesn't go 5th overall?  

 

10 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I'm going to take a stab at translating this vague reference to 5 clips . I read it as there are 5 no-nos for an NHLer . If you have 3 and aren't improving  in your game the Habs will not find you worth keeping or in other words you won't even get a peak at the 5th . I assume it has a lot to do with defensive responsibility , attitude , consistently making good decisions with the puck and work ethic .

Yeah i wasnt sure what Bouchard meant there either.  I thought either like Arpem-can said: you wont get a chance to even make the 4th and 5th mistakes if you make those first 3 you'll never be a regular -   or - he meant to say "1st" (instead of 5th) meaning "you'll never be a 1st liner, you'll peak as a 3rd" but i dont know.

Either way I am just amazed at how well Bouchard seems to be in control of things down there. Imagine if we had had a competent AHL coach before him!

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46 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

Yeah i wasnt sure what Bouchard meant there either.  I thought either like Arpem-can said: you wont get a chance to even make the 4th and 5th mistakes if you make those first 3 you'll never be a regular -   or - he meant to say "1st" (instead of 5th) meaning "you'll never be a 1st liner, you'll peak as a 3rd" but i dont know.

Either way I am just amazed at how well Bouchard seems to be in control of things down there. Imagine if we had had a competent AHL coach before him!

yeah i feel good about our asset development in Laval. we will need to make some sweet moves to get our NHL team into better shape though! i really feel like we have some good players with of course a hole or two in the lineup i just don't feel like we use them very well right now.

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5 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

yeah i feel good about our asset development in Laval. we will need to make some sweet moves to get our NHL team into better shape though! i really feel like we have some good players with of course a hole or two in the lineup i just don't feel like we use them very well right now.

I think the problem, to me, is that we're just still a ways away from guys being ready. I still think there's a very good chance we have quality players at most positions and most are under 25 so that bodes very well, but of course guys like Petry, Weber and possibly Price probably wont be 'prime time' when guys like Caufield or Brook are. 

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1 hour ago, arpem-can said:

I'm going to take a stab at translating this vague reference to 5 clips . I read it as there are 5 no-nos for an NHLer . If you have 3 and aren't improving  in your game the Habs will not find you worth keeping or in other words you won't even get a peak at the 5th . I assume it has a lot to do with defensive responsibility , attitude , consistently making good decisions with the puck and work ethic .

 

2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Trying to puzzle out through the translation (and I read french and it still doesn't make sense) .. what he means by "does not go to the fifth"

Doesn't go 5th overall?  

 

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

 

Yeah i wasnt sure what Bouchard meant there either.  I thought either like Arpem-can said: you wont get a chance to even make the 4th and 5th mistakes if you make those first 3 you'll never be a regular -   or - he meant to say "1st" (instead of 5th) meaning "you'll never be a 1st liner, you'll peak as a 3rd" but i dont know.

Either way I am just amazed at how well Bouchard seems to be in control of things down there. Imagine if we had had a competent AHL coach before him!

Bouchard was saying that he showed Kotkaniemi 5 clips of his play, each of them being a mistake he made. He said basically that if you make those mistakes, usually you'll be benched by the 3rd one and you won't even get the opportunity to make the 4th or 5th ones because you won't be seeing the ice.

In any case, very clear that JK is not pleased with the lack of opportunity at the NHL level and maybe more importantly, the communication about what he has to do better. Very similar to the Pacioretty situation a few years ago, where he told everyone he was glad to go to the NHL and finally get real coaching (from Cunneyworth), rather than being benched every time he made a bad play and then stuck on the 3rd or 4th line. Pacioretty told the media he hoped he only got recalled if the Habs planned on using him in a role that suited his abilities, which is basically the same thing we can say about JK.

I'll say this. JK hasn't played really well this season, but he played well when he had Drouin and Armia as linemates. He hasn't been given the same opportunities that Danault and Domi and Suzuki have been afforded, and he has had to play with some bad linemates (at least in terms of their offensive abilities). As with Galchenyuk, I kind of just want to see an offensive player given a chance to play an offensive role, especially when the games here don't matter for the rest of the year. NOW is the time to experiment and find out what your young guys can do. We know what Danault can do with Gallagher and Tatar. It's more vital to know if JK can do even more with them (or two other offensive linemates).

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

...In any case, very clear that JK is not pleased with the lack of opportunity at the NHL level and maybe more importantly, the communication about what he has to do better. Very similar to the Pacioretty situation a few years ago, where he told everyone he was glad to go to the NHL and finally get real coaching (from Cunneyworth), rather than being benched every time he made a bad play and then stuck on the 3rd or 4th line. Pacioretty told the media he hoped he only got recalled if the Habs planned on using him in a role that suited his abilities, which is basically the same thing we can say about JK.

I'll say this. JK hasn't played really well this season, but he played well when he had Drouin and Armia as linemates. He hasn't been given the same opportunities that Danault and Domi and Suzuki have been afforded, and he has had to play with some bad linemates (at least in terms of their offensive abilities). As with Galchenyuk, I kind of just want to see an offensive player given a chance to play an offensive role, especially when the games here don't matter for the rest of the year. NOW is the time to experiment and find out what your young guys can do. We know what Danault can do with Gallagher and Tatar. It's more vital to know if JK can do even more with them (or two other offensive linemates).

Agree with this... Unfortunately, Habs coaching is pressured to make the playoffs even when the possibilities are bleak. Let's hope that this will turn out the way it did with Pacioretty back then.

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I realize our playoff hopes are hanging on a string but i'm not 100% in the tank camp yet. I would be on board if the organization layed out an obvious plan to do a quick turnaround of 1 to 3 years,,, but bargain bin has always been a bandaid GM since he's been here, and until he's gone I expect more of the same. There's still a few nails to hammer in before I officially bury this team.

It's a Jekyl and Hyde group we have this year and the good guys are still capable of hanging with the best but when we're bad we're terrible. 

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35 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I realize our playoff hopes are hanging on a string but i'm not 100% in the tank camp yet. I would be on board if the organization layed out an obvious plan to do a quick turnaround of 1 to 3 years,,, but bargain bin has always been a bandaid GM since he's been here, and until he's gone I expect more of the same. There's still a few nails to hammer in before I officially bury this team.

It's a Jekyl and Hyde group we have this year and the good guys are still capable of hanging with the best but when we're bad we're terrible. 

Like don't get me wrong ... I would love them to make the playoffs and compete.    I just don't see this team has having the depth or talent to win it all.   And even if we do manage by some miracle to make it this year, that just sets us up for 2-3 more years of being a bubble team that just "almost makes it" every season.

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29 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I realize our playoff hopes are hanging on a string but i'm not 100% in the tank camp yet. I would be on board if the organization layed out an obvious plan to do a quick turnaround of 1 to 3 years,,, but bargain bin has always been a bandaid GM since he's been here, and until he's gone I expect more of the same. There's still a few nails to hammer in before I officially bury this team.

It's a Jekyl and Hyde group we have this year and the good guys are still capable of hanging with the best but when we're bad we're terrible. 

  For me it's not a matter of tanking ...this trade deadline offers an opportunity for Bergevin to change the dynamics of the club and get better . I like Petry but his value is about as high as it gets right now and he's up for contract in one year  and he will bring in decent prospect offers . I would rather keep Tatar unless an offer blows the doors off . Bergy has some important contracts coming up and will need some cap flexibility  ...Petry offers that . 

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18 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Like don't get me wrong ... I would love them to make the playoffs and compete.    I just don't see this team has having the depth or talent to win it all.   And even if we do manage by some miracle to make it this year, that just sets us up for 2-3 more years of being a bubble team that just "almost makes it" every season.

The way i see it is that there is maybe 2 to 3 elite teams (not unbeatable but tough) and the rest are pretty much in the same boat parity wise,,, so even the so called bubble team can be viewed as a contender. Don't see that much disparity between teams rated 4th to 16th. We're a long ways off from being that elite team, so not fully convinced that tanking for one year and selling off is a recipe to get us there. Many have tried that formula and none of them stick out as having succeeded long term. In this day and age you need to flip things around quickly and find that winning combination. Some times it can be done in a couple years (trades/signings) but after that you really need to luck out on your picks panning out. Unfortunately i have little faith this management team is capable of delivering on either strategy.

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22 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

  For me it's not a matter of tanking ...this trade deadline offers an opportunity for Bergevin to change the dynamics of the club and get better . I like Petry but his value is about as high as it gets right now and he's up for contract in one year  and he will bring in decent prospect offers . I would rather keep Tatar unless an offer blows the doors off . Bergy has some important contracts coming up and will need some cap flexibility  ...Petry offers that . 

I would have no problem moving Petry for a good deal, because as you said we have cap concerns to deal with down the road ( as do all teams). I wouldn't consider trading him and him alone a sign we're tanking, but just good asset management. Is MB capable of that?

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1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

I realize our playoff hopes are hanging on a string but i'm not 100% in the tank camp yet. I would be on board if the organization layed out an obvious plan to do a quick turnaround of 1 to 3 years,,, but bargain bin has always been a bandaid GM since he's been here, and until he's gone I expect more of the same. There's still a few nails to hammer in before I officially bury this team.

It's a Jekyl and Hyde group we have this year and the good guys are still capable of hanging with the best but when we're bad we're terrible. 

Im the same. We now have 9 games before the trade deadline. If we miraculously win say, 7 of them, im willing to forgo the firesale & see what we can do this year. I think there'd be a sliver of a chance.

If we lose even 3 or 4 of the next 9 I think its time to call it a season. 

52 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

  For me it's not a matter of tanking ...this trade deadline offers an opportunity for Bergevin to change the dynamics of the club and get better . I like Petry but his value is about as high as it gets right now and he's up for contract in one year  and he will bring in decent prospect offers . I would rather keep Tatar unless an offer blows the doors off . Bergy has some important contracts coming up and will need some cap flexibility  ...Petry offers that . 

I also get that.  I think its silly to tank in this day and age because you end up in this rut like Edmonton or Buffalo: even when you finally get the good players you dont have a culture of winning - and of course its impossible to guarantee a lottery win.  That said, we have some assets that will clearly not be in their prime when guys like Suzuki, JK, Caufield, Romanov, Brook, Primeau and others are.   Id consider moving (some of, obviously not all of them):  Weber, Price, Petry, Tatar, Kovalchuk, any of our 4th line guys and ( i know i'll get slack for this but...) even Gallagher if the price was right.

31 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

The way i see it is that there is maybe 2 to 3 elite teams (not unbeatable but tough) and the rest are pretty much in the same boat parity wise,,, so even the so called bubble team can be viewed as a contender. Don't see that much disparity between teams rated 4th to 16th. We're a long ways off from being that elite team, so not fully convinced that tanking for one year and selling off is a recipe to get us there. Many have tried that formula and none of them stick out as having succeeded long term. In this day and age you need to flip things around quickly and find that winning combination. Some times it can be done in a couple years (trades/signings) but after that you really need to luck out on your picks panning out. Unfortunately i have little faith this management team is capable of delivering on either strategy.

I do agree with this to a degree.  Most teams have gamebreakers though. Price could still be a gamebreaker (but hasnt played that way consistently for a while) Weber and Kovy also - just too far past their prime.  We have a ton of really good supporting cast members but without that gamebreaker I put us in the the lower end of the scale - although I do believe if we had not had so many injuries we'd be in the playoff picture right now. 

24 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I would have no problem moving Petry for a good deal, because as you said we have cap concerns to deal with down the road ( as do all teams). I wouldn't consider trading him and him alone a sign we're tanking, but just good asset management. Is MB capable of that?

Does MB have a plan? thats the real question.

I honestly think he sees our top pairing for the next 5 years as Romanov-Weber.  He doesnt seem to grasp that Weber is already out of his Prime & Romanov has not yet hit his (if he ever does).  He just seems oblivious to timing.

MB is like a chef who can make beautiful dishes but cant serve them all at once. You get your chicken, then 10 minutes later your potatoes, then 10 minutes later your veg... etc...

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2 hours ago, H_T_L said:

I would have no problem moving Petry for a good deal, because as you said we have cap concerns to deal with down the road ( as do all teams). I wouldn't consider trading him and him alone a sign we're tanking, but just good asset management. Is MB capable of that?

good question ….we're going to find out soon 

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6 hours ago, maas_art said:

Im the same. We now have 9 games before the trade deadline. If we miraculously win say, 7 of them, im willing to forgo the firesale & see what we can do this year. I think there'd be a sliver of a chance.

If we lose even 3 or 4 of the next 9 I think its time to call it a season. 

I also get that.  I think its silly to tank in this day and age because you end up in this rut like Edmonton or Buffalo: even when you finally get the good players you dont have a culture of winning - and of course its impossible to guarantee a lottery win.  That said, we have some assets that will clearly not be in their prime when guys like Suzuki, JK, Caufield, Romanov, Brook, Primeau and others are.   Id consider moving (some of, obviously not all of them):  Weber, Price, Petry, Tatar, Kovalchuk, any of our 4th line guys and ( i know i'll get slack for this but...) even Gallagher if the price was right.

I do agree with this to a degree.  Most teams have gamebreakers though. Price could still be a gamebreaker (but hasnt played that way consistently for a while) Weber and Kovy also - just too far past their prime.  We have a ton of really good supporting cast members but without that gamebreaker I put us in the the lower end of the scale - although I do believe if we had not had so many injuries we'd be in the playoff picture right now. 

Does MB have a plan? thats the real question.

I honestly think he sees our top pairing for the next 5 years as Romanov-Weber.  He doesnt seem to grasp that Weber is already out of his Prime & Romanov has not yet hit his (if he ever does).  He just seems oblivious to timing.

MB is like a chef who can make beautiful dishes but cant serve them all at once. You get your chicken, then 10 minutes later your potatoes, then 10 minutes later your veg... etc...

1. season is over.  lets be real. 

2. I really want to highlight your point about the lack of gamebreakers. this is the main main main thing wrong with this team. we have some potential gamebreaker prospects, but by the time they even get there, if they will even get there, a lot of these guys we like will not be the players they are now to put it in its most positive light

3. that being said, petry, weber and gallagher are actually my top 3 to move by a mile....and despite petry being the one named the most , really at all, I want weber and gallagher even above him. those 2 have such a high regard league wide that I think the return would be incredible, and I really think THAT would be the true "reset". we can actually get returns on those 2 which would be multiple assets that could help right away/very soon.  couple that with the fact that despite the intangibles bla bla that they bring, they are self evidently not making us win anything right now, and the future is in the future. 

4. does MB have a plan? he sure does. trot out the exact same discount lineup for fear of doing anything drastically forward thinking, make every excuse under the sun, and  assume we will come close enough to the playoffs that he can continue blowing the same hot air loser talk for another year and just keep kicking the can down the road 

 

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