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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Thought id dig this thread up since a lot of us were a bit worried about the captain to start the year.   Ive read three separate articles lately suggesting Weber's name should at least be in the discussions for the Norris.  Now, obviously its way early (Not even halfway) and Carlson has a big point lead - but - here's an interesting stat:

Since October 17th:

Carlson: 25 games, 31 points.    
Yandle:  24 games, 24 points  
Weber: 26 games, 24 points
Hedman: 21games, 22 points
Makar: 23 games 22points.  

The big question is obviously: can he maintain this pace?  Hamilton, while still ahead has cooled lately and Carlson has come back to earth (still tops in points by a D but nowhere near the spread).


I think if Shea can keep it up, he gets at least consideration.   As a 3 time finalist (including 2 of the closest votes in the last 25 years of voting) there's a sliver of a chance he gets the "political" vote - the way actors sometimes get the academy award in years they dont really deserve it because they were overlooked in years they did.  As guys who watch Shea every game we know that his defensive game has suffered a bit lately but he still has that Man Mountain reputation and that can go a long way in the world of hockey voting... 

 

 

Yep every year since the trade several folks love to jump on any chance to slag Webber....... not sure why he is what he is and he is good at it i don't see a big drop off in his game coming any time soon. he did not look all that slow when he blasted down the ice for that wrap around goal, could it be because for the first time since he got here he has a good partner with some size and experience? I really hope Subban can find his grove but if he does not this trade will have been a win it could have been even better if MB had not allowed PK's value to drop.

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14 hours ago, maas_art said:

Thought id dig this thread up since a lot of us were a bit worried about the captain to start the year.   Ive read three separate articles lately suggesting Weber's name should at least be in the discussions for the Norris.  Now, obviously its way early (Not even halfway) and Carlson has a big point lead - but - here's an interesting stat:

Since October 17th:

Carlson: 25 games, 31 points.    
Yandle:  24 games, 24 points  
Weber: 26 games, 24 points
Hedman: 21games, 22 points
Makar: 23 games 22points.  

The big question is obviously: can he maintain this pace?  Hamilton, while still ahead has cooled lately and Carlson has come back to earth (still tops in points by a D but nowhere near the spread).


I think if Shea can keep it up, he gets at least consideration.   As a 3 time finalist (including 2 of the closest votes in the last 25 years of voting) there's a sliver of a chance he gets the "political" vote - the way actors sometimes get the academy award in years they dont really deserve it because they were overlooked in years they did.  As guys who watch Shea every game we know that his defensive game has suffered a bit lately but he still has that Man Mountain reputation and that can go a long way in the world of hockey voting... 

 

 

I think he should be considered absolutely. He is also tied with Carlson for +11 highest plus of all those defenseman. Carlson is also playing on a much more offensive stacked team which elevates his point production. Weber plays all the tough minutes and also already has 60 blocked shots. The Norris anymore has gotten to be the trophy for the best offensive production from a defensive man not the best overall defense which is what the trophy was originally about and should be. I've seen his name already mentioned on NHL network and on different segments on XM NHL Network radio by several of the host. A lot of defenseman actually get the trophy later on. Lindstrom won several Norris trophies well into his 30's . Giordono won his in his 30's . As offensively great as Karlson is he was one of the examples of winning with offense only. He rarely kills penalties and has had several terrible - minus nights. There was a game earlier this year where SJ had 5 against and Karlson was on for all 5 and looked bad pout there defensively. That's one of the main reasons when so many want this guy ect. I look at the bigger picture not just what does this defenseman bring offensively. 

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2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I think he should be considered absolutely. He is also tied with Carlson for +11 highest plus of all those defenseman. Carlson is also playing on a much more offensive stacked team which elevates his point production. Weber plays all the tough minutes and also already has 60 blocked shots. The Norris anymore has gotten to be the trophy for the best offensive production from a defensive man not the best overall defense which is what the trophy was originally about and should be. I've seen his name already mentioned on NHL network and on different segments on XM NHL Network radio by several of the host. A lot of defenseman actually get the trophy later on. Lindstrom won several Norris trophies well into his 30's . Giordono won his in his 30's . As offensively great as Karlson is he was one of the examples of winning with offense only. He rarely kills penalties and has had several terrible - minus nights. There was a game earlier this year where SJ had 5 against and Karlson was on for all 5 and looked bad pout there defensively. That's one of the main reasons when so many want this guy ect. I look at the bigger picture not just what does this defenseman bring offensively. 

Agree.  If Carlson ends up with say 75 points and Weber with 65 then i think he has a chance. If Carlson hits like 90 then its going to be basically impossible for anyone to beat him for the Norris (regardless of all the stuff you mentioned).

I think that Hamilton and Yandle will fade.  I believe its going to come down to Carlson, Weber, Hedman Josi and Makar when the dust settles but still a lot of hockey left to play. 

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  • 1 year later...
4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yup, top 10 PP goals by defensmen.  He could legitimately hit top 5 by the time he retires. 

Yep he has not slowed down as much as many felt he would he could do it. he is a dedicated player and takes care of himself it is a young mans game but some guys can remain effective later in their careers.

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On 12/18/2019 at 9:17 PM, ramcharger440 said:

Yep every year since the trade several folks love to jump on any chance to slag Webber....... not sure why he is what he is and he is good at it i don't see a big drop off in his game coming any time soon. he did not look all that slow when he blasted down the ice for that wrap around goal, could it be because for the first time since he got here he has a good partner with some size and experience? I really hope Subban can find his grove but if he does not this trade will have been a win it could have been even better if MB had not allowed PK's value to drop.

 

On 1/19/2021 at 5:56 PM, ramcharger440 said:

Yep he has not slowed down as much as many felt he would he could do it. he is a dedicated player and takes care of himself it is a young mans game but some guys can remain effective later in their careers.

Still feeling that way? I didn't like the trade then, and I'm liking it less every game.

2016-17     Montreal finished   7th  -  first round loss

2017-18     Montreal finished 28th

2018-19     Montreal finished 14th  -  DNQ

2019-20     Montreal finished 24th  -  shouldn't have qualified  -  first round loss

So really.  Did we improve?

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3 minutes ago, electron58 said:

 

Still feeling that way? I didn't like the trade then, and I'm liking it less every game.

2016-17     Montreal finished   7th  -  first round loss

2017-18     Montreal finished 28th

2018-19     Montreal finished 14th  -  DNQ

2019-20     Montreal finished 24th  -  shouldn't have qualified  -  first round loss

So really.  Did we improve?

Yep still feel the same way. has he had a tough start to the year yes, is he the only player on the team to have had a tough start no. poaching a post from 2019 seems a bit personal don't ya think? you have every right to not like a trade same as I have every right to like it. Just for the record PK  was a great player most of his career but he has had his own issues on ice. so really is it that simple? and has PK  really improved any of the teams he played on? perhaps but then again he is not the only player on those teams is he.

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1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yep still feel the same way. has he had a tough start to the year yes, is he the only player on the team to have had a tough start no. poaching a post from 2019 seems a bit personal don't ya think? you have every right to not like a trade same as I have every right to like it. Just for the record PK  was a great player most of his career but he has had his own issues on ice. so really is it that simple? and has PK  really improved any of the teams he played on? perhaps but then again he is not the only player on those teams is he.

Nothing personal intended. I just thought the trade was one sided as we were getting SW on the down side of his career. He's showing it more & more every game. I was hoping that he had some kind of injury to explain his game, but I doubt that.PK was always a dynamic skater and did well on good teams. Even lately, although the stats say otherwise. Just making conversation. I like SW as a person, and in his prime, he was dominant. Nashville made that trade for a reason. 

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7 hours ago, electron58 said:

Nothing personal intended. I just thought the trade was one sided as we were getting SW on the down side of his career. He's showing it more & more every game. I was hoping that he had some kind of injury to explain his game, but I doubt that.PK was always a dynamic skater and did well on good teams. Even lately, although the stats say otherwise. Just making conversation. I like SW as a person, and in his prime, he was dominant. Nashville made that trade for a reason. 

And Nashville traded away PK (much quicker) for a reason also. PK looked good when playing along side Markov he looked good with Nashville stacked defense. PK is and has always been about PK. I have always loved this trade and I still do! Everyone has their opinions and that's all they are is opinions. 

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9 hours ago, electron58 said:

Nothing personal intended. I just thought the trade was one sided as we were getting SW on the down side of his career. He's showing it more & more every game. I was hoping that he had some kind of injury to explain his game, but I doubt that.PK was always a dynamic skater and did well on good teams. Even lately, although the stats say otherwise. Just making conversation. I like SW as a person, and in his prime, he was dominant. Nashville made that trade for a reason. 

 

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

And Nashville traded away PK (much quicker) for a reason also. PK looked good when playing along side Markov he looked good with Nashville stacked defense. PK is and has always been about PK. I have always loved this trade and I still do! Everyone has their opinions and that's all they are is opinions. 

Both sides of this argument are valid Weber has been good with the Habs but is not as good as he was with Nashville same goes for Subban. If you ask me I think both players were expendable for Nashville for different reasons. Part of me wonders what our D could look like if we were to reacquire PK (half retained). We could potentially line up today

Subban-Weber

Edmundson-Petry

Kulak-Romanov

Then we can take our time with the upcoming LHD prospects and we still have PK to help ease the transition from Weber to Fleury and Brook (plus whatever other RHD we draft in the future). 

On the other hand taking PK back could upset the balance of the dressing room chemistry which could negatively impact the team as well. PK has not been as good as Weber since leaving Montreal either.

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10 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

 

Both sides of this argument are valid Weber has been good with the Habs but is not as good as he was with Nashville same goes for Subban. If you ask me I think both players were expendable for Nashville for different reasons. Part of me wonders what our D could look like if we were to reacquire PK (half retained). We could potentially line up today

Subban-Weber

Edmundson-Petry

Kulak-Romanov

Then we can take our time with the upcoming LHD prospects and we still have PK to help ease the transition from Weber to Fleury and Brook (plus whatever other RHD we draft in the future). 

On the other hand taking PK back could upset the balance of the dressing room chemistry which could negatively impact the team as well. PK has not been as good as Weber since leaving Montreal either.

PK is a naturally gifted skater. I always thought if he had just simplified his game a little. He never really seemed to learn when to take the risky plays and at times just wait for the game to come to you. If Chucky had learned to utilize his line mates better and put more into the little defensive things in his game I believe he could of been a star. Natural talents sometimes just have to learn how to work with in the team structure and different coaches. PK does have a great shot and is mobile he would help the PP. I agree at this time I don't know how he would fit in. He's older now and has built his brand. If he could check his ego at the door you never know. I believe he could play the off side because of his mobility. 

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5 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

PK is a naturally gifted skater. I always thought if he had just simplified his game a little. He never really seemed to learn when to take the risky plays and at times just wait for the game to come to you. If Chucky had learned to utilize his line mates better and put more into the little defensive things in his game I believe he could of been a star. Natural talents sometimes just have to learn how to work with in the team structure and different coaches. PK does have a great shot and is mobile he would help the PP. I agree at this time I don't know how he would fit in. He's older now and has built his brand. If he could check his ego at the door you never know. I believe he could play the off side because of his mobility. 

Yes and PK needs the Markov/Weber type of player to be successful and Weber needs the Subban type of player as well, hence the reason I could see this being an interesting pairing but like I said at the same time PK's ego may be too big to overcome any positive he would bring back.

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Its been 5 years, Im not sure if there's much point in revisiting the trade but their seasons this year seem pretty similar.  I think there's an outside chance either will rebound  - but obviously recent history is on Weber's side. 

Weber looked a lot better last game but i still contend you're not going to see a great turnaround from him unless you give him a better partner. Gone are the days where he can carry a poor LD. As one writer wrote recently: MB traded for "Nashville Shea Weber" - that guy is gone - but there's still a lot of value in Montreal Shea Weber.  

If Romanov keeps playing like he did last game I think the coaches will have to try him next to Weber and that could indeed revitalize his game for the near future. I like Chairot and I think he's still useful but he shouldnt be anywhere close to our top pairing. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Its been 5 years, Im not sure if there's much point in revisiting the trade but their seasons this year seem pretty similar.  I think there's an outside chance either will rebound  - but obviously recent history is on Weber's side. 

Weber looked a lot better last game but i still contend you're not going to see a great turnaround from him unless you give him a better partner. Gone are the days where he can carry a poor LD. As one writer wrote recently: MB traded for "Nashville Shea Weber" - that guy is gone - but there's still a lot of value in Montreal Shea Weber.  

If Romanov keeps playing like he did last game I think the coaches will have to try him next to Weber and that could indeed revitalize his game for the near future. I like Chairot and I think he's still useful but he shouldnt be anywhere close to our top pairing. 

 

 

I would like to see Romanov with Weber. Weber with Mete wasn't bad at times. I think you could ease the pairing by different times and situations within the game. I think in the long run it could work out. 

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1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

I would like to see Romanov with Weber. Weber with Mete wasn't bad at times. I think you could ease the pairing by different times and situations within the game. I think in the long run it could work out. 

Romanov with Weber would definitely help the defense overall.  The less SW handles the puck, the better.  It may also limit his 5 on 5, making SW a little fresher for the PK.  & the PP, since they insist on playing SW big minutes.

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1 hour ago, electron58 said:

Romanov with Weber would definitely help the defense overall.  The less SW handles the puck, the better.  It may also limit his 5 on 5, making SW a little fresher for the PK.  & the PP, since they insist on playing SW big minutes.

His PK stats have been pretty bad this year. I think there's some suggestion we actually limit his PK role TBH.    I know it goes against the narrative but the reality is that we all get older.   There's nothing wrong with pushing him to the second pair and second PK unit.  

Since im sure that Petry-Edmundson is probably safe, Id actually be cool with Kulak-Weber (Which performed well in years past).  3rd pair would be Romanov-Chairot who, under the right icetime, I think would be quite effective. 

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In order of which Weber pairings are most likely to have success based on how much the other guy complements him:

1. Romanov-Weber

2. Kulak-Weber

3. Petry-Weber

4. Mete-Weber

5. Edmundson-Weber

6. Chiarot-Weber

 

so we're pretty much at the bottom of the barrel with what we're going with right now.

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5 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

In order of which Weber pairings are most likely to have success based on how much the other guy complements him:

1. Romanov-Weber

2. Kulak-Weber

3. Petry-Weber

4. Mete-Weber

5. Edmundson-Weber

6. Chiarot-Weber

 

so we're pretty much at the bottom of the barrel with what we're going with right now.

I like the first 2. Gotta be better than the status quo.

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  • 1 month later...

Last night we watched Auston Matthews blow past Weber and cleanly beat his check. I know that AM is (regrettably) one of the premiere talents in the NHL. I know that only a few players could make that play, but it wasnt even close.  In his prime, no one in the league could do that to Weber. Heck, im not sure if AM could have done it last year.

Weber hasnt just lost a step, he looks positionally weak and, frankly, confused out there.  I love Shea. I want him to succeed but every game it gets a bit worse right now. Some have speculated injury but I dont think thats the issue. 

The coaches should be doing something. Moving him down the lineup, giving him a more mobile partner, making a plan that suits him better (maybe Julen's old zone coverage system was better for Shea)

But, I also wonder if Shea should be saying something to the team. You know he's upset. He's frustrated. He's broken sticks and slammed doors over his own play.  Would it not be appropriate - as a leader of this team - to go to the coaches & say "guys, i need to ease back a little."

Everyone needs to be thinking of the team and right now, this 1st pairing is kiling us.   Im not sure if Petry-Kulak or Petry-Edmundson can handle those minutes but I know for sure Weber-Edmundson cant right now. 

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38 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Last night we watched Auston Matthews blow past Weber and cleanly beat his check. I know that AM is (regrettably) one of the premiere talents in the NHL. I know that only a few players could make that play, but it wasnt even close.  In his prime, no one in the league could do that to Weber. Heck, im not sure if AM could have done it last year.

Weber hasnt just lost a step, he looks positionally weak and, frankly, confused out there.  I love Shea. I want him to succeed but every game it gets a bit worse right now. Some have speculated injury but I dont think thats the issue. 

The coaches should be doing something. Moving him down the lineup, giving him a more mobile partner, making a plan that suits him better (maybe Julen's old zone coverage system was better for Shea)

But, I also wonder if Shea should be saying something to the team. You know he's upset. He's frustrated. He's broken sticks and slammed doors over his own play.  Would it not be appropriate - as a leader of this team - to go to the coaches & say "guys, i need to ease back a little."

Everyone needs to be thinking of the team and right now, this 1st pairing is kiling us.   Im not sure if Petry-Kulak or Petry-Edmundson can handle those minutes but I know for sure Weber-Edmundson cant right now. 

He has been having an awful year but who replaces him? to replace what we need him to be doing is going to take a trade no one here right now can do what we need sure they could play better than he is right now but even that is not enough we need someone who is better than even Petry because he should be our second pairing leader with a better more complete RHD ahead of him if we want to contend. so in my view right now if this is going to be the new normal for Webber we need a new #1 pairing Petry and either Eddy or Kulak on the second pairing and some mix of what we have left on the third. never having fixed our issue at LHD is really coming back to haunt us now. how many years has it been?

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21 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

He has been having an awful year but who replaces him? to replace what we need him to be doing is going to take a trade no one here right now can do what we need sure they could play better than he is right now but even that is not enough we need someone who is better than even Petry because he should be our second pairing leader with a better more complete RHD ahead of him if we want to contend. so in my view right now if this is going to be the new normal for Webber we need a new #1 pairing Petry and either Eddy or Kulak on the second pairing and some mix of what we have left on the third. never having fixed our issue at LHD is really coming back to haunt us now. how many years has it been?

That really is the question.  Petry has been awesome but I agree that its not a certainty he can handle 1st pair minutes - and I would guess thats why the team hasnt made the switch.

And I also agree, LHD is our biggest issue.  If you had 1 top pairing LHD the whole thing would look different because one of Weber or Petry could handle that top pairing IF the other guy was a legit #1 LHD. Without that you have 2 guys who probably cant play #1RD AND make up for their partner.

 

The real takeaway here though is:  Does MB not see this? Surely he has to, right?  I understand if there are no guys out there who fix this problem, i understand if the asking price is too high for one but what I wouldnt understand is if MB (and the coaching staff) is actually not seeing this is a huge problem. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

That really is the question.  Petry has been awesome but I agree that its not a certainty he can handle 1st pair minutes - and I would guess thats why the team hasnt made the switch.

And I also agree, LHD is our biggest issue.  If you had 1 top pairing LHD the whole thing would look different because one of Weber or Petry could handle that top pairing IF the other guy was a legit #1 LHD. Without that you have 2 guys who probably cant play #1RD AND make up for their partner.

 

The real takeaway here though is:  Does MB not see this? Surely he has to, right?  I understand if there are no guys out there who fix this problem, i understand if the asking price is too high for one but what I wouldnt understand is if MB (and the coaching staff) is actually not seeing this is a huge problem. 

 

 

I am pretty sure they see it but how do you fix it? it will take a magic trade to do it! no little fix it trade here it will be a big gulp trade like the one that brought Webber here in the first place that means someone meaningful will have to go as much for the money as for the talent! to get a blue chip Dman we will have to let go of a blue chip forward and probably a prospect anything less won't get us the kind of quality we need.

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

That really is the question.  Petry has been awesome but I agree that its not a certainty he can handle 1st pair minutes - and I would guess thats why the team hasnt made the switch.

And I also agree, LHD is our biggest issue.  If you had 1 top pairing LHD the whole thing would look different because one of Weber or Petry could handle that top pairing IF the other guy was a legit #1 LHD. Without that you have 2 guys who probably cant play #1RD AND make up for their partner.

 

The real takeaway here though is:  Does MB not see this? Surely he has to, right?  I understand if there are no guys out there who fix this problem, i understand if the asking price is too high for one but what I wouldnt understand is if MB (and the coaching staff) is actually not seeing this is a huge problem. 

 

 

Well,  all of the media sees it, and they are constantly writing about it. Unless Bergevin is a turtle,  he must know it. But, ya know, trades are hard. He's got the cap space, "No Excuses"!

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46 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I am pretty sure they see it but how do you fix it? it will take a magic trade to do it! no little fix it trade here it will be a big gulp trade like the one that brought Webber here in the first place that means someone meaningful will have to go as much for the money as for the talent! to get a blue chip Dman we will have to let go of a blue chip forward and probably a prospect anything less won't get us the kind of quality we need.

Drouin +++

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