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Kovalchuk

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8 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I dis agree with your assessment of our prospects. Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki and Poehling may not be on the same level as a McDavid or McKinnon or Crosby or Malkin or Point but they are all either parallel or slightly ahead or behind guys like Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov were when they were drafted maybe not now but definitely when they were drafted. Difference is the way they were developed most went through the AHL and when called up were put in top roles not saddled on the 3rd or 4th line.

If Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki and Poehling  become anything close to  Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov  I will be ecstatic .

You may want to confirm but I don't think any of  Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov  spent time in the AHL . They were that good that they made the jump to the NHL right away .

Suzuki seems to be doing fine in his 1st yr

 Kotkaniemi has taken a step back .

Poehling hasn't done anything special .

And who knows how Caufield will react when he's playing against pros .

I dont have an issue with how the Habs coaches deal with young players. They know and see more than we do . We all want the prospects play with better players and get top minutes but they have to earn it . The coaches are putting the best lineup together that they feel gives them the best chance to win the hockey games . Look at Galchenyuk . We all wanted him to be the # 1 C . Well  he's been traded twice , can't seem to be a # 1 C on two other teams and the talk is he's being shopped by Pittsburgh, so I guess Habs' knew something we didn't. 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, maas_art said:

that rarely happens unless the player has a real history with the team (ie pleks) so i think if you trade him at the deadline, thats most likely it.  

Its all about the return at this point. If someone wants to pay good value for Kovy I bid adieu but if the pickins are slim, honestly id rather we keep him.  I feel like he and Suzuki are developing something special and if playing with him for even just another 20 games means that Suzuki adds another element to his game going forward, its well worth it.

Ive said before, a lot of Kovy's 'specialness' comes from his audacity - which is true of a lot of elite players - he does things that others wouldnt even consider doing (because they arent exactly 'safe') because he KNOWs he can make it work.  Ovechkin does this. Stamkos does this.  If some of that rubs off on Suzuki going forward?  Well worth keeping him for - and thats on top of the points he's going to put up for us. 

100%

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38 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

If Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki and Poehling  become anything close to  Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov  I will be ecstatic .

You may want to confirm but I don't think any of  Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov  spent time in the AHL . They were that good that they made the jump to the NHL right away .

Suzuki seems to be doing fine in his 1st yr

 Kotkaniemi has taken a step back .

Poehling hasn't done anything special .

And who knows how Caufield will react when he's playing against pros .

I dont have an issue with how the Habs coaches deal with young players. They know and see more than we do . We all want the prospects play with better players and get top minutes but they have to earn it . The coaches are putting the best lineup together that they feel gives them the best chance to win the hockey games . Look at Galchenyuk . We all wanted him to be the # 1 C . Well  he's been traded twice , can't seem to be a # 1 C on two other teams and the talk is he's being shopped by Pittsburgh, so I guess Habs' knew something we didn't. 

 

 

Everyone keeps saying they have to earn top minutes and blah blah blah but Suzuki didn't earn anything out of camp he was just given top minutes

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32 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Everyone keeps saying they have to earn top minutes and blah blah blah but Suzuki didn't earn anything out of camp he was just given top minutes

Suzuki started with Thompson on the 4th line and then did some time on the wing when we had injuries. He's done what he's been asked to do. Earlier when asked about the wing or center he said he didn't care as he played both during juniors. He didn't start on the pp or pk. He work ethic ,attitude and most of all his hockey IQ and playing responsibly (basically being a 200' player) has earned him playing time and position. He has earned the coaches trust by doing what they ask. Stankos when he came into the league watched a lot of games from the press box as a rookie. Later on he said it helped him. Having the right attitude means a lot. No matter the skill level the NHL is another step. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

that rarely happens unless the player has a real history with the team (ie pleks) so i think if you trade him at the deadline, thats most likely it.  

Its all about the return at this point. If someone wants to pay good value for Kovy I bid adieu but if the pickins are slim, honestly id rather we keep him.  I feel like he and Suzuki are developing something special and if playing with him for even just another 20 games means that Suzuki adds another element to his game going forward, its well worth it.

Ive said before, a lot of Kovy's 'specialness' comes from his audacity - which is true of a lot of elite players - he does things that others wouldnt even consider doing (because they arent exactly 'safe') because he KNOWs he can make it work.  Ovechkin does this. Stamkos does this.  If some of that rubs off on Suzuki going forward?  Well worth keeping him for - and thats on top of the points he's going to put up for us. 

Yeah, your right, it doesn’t happen very often. The way I see it is this..

- For us to keep Kovy (and me be comfortable with it) he’s going to have to be willing to take less money and term than other teams are willing to offer. Basically, give us a discount because Montreal is where he wants to be.

- For Kovy to sign with us in the off-season (and me to be comfortable with it) he’s going to have to be willing to take less money and term than other teams are willing to offer. Basically, give us a discount because Montreal is where he wants to be.

So either way, the only way Kovalchuk is on our team next year is if Montreal is where he really wants to be. 

I don’t think he has any interest in sitting out the postseason. 

Since he would be the definition of a rental player, it would be unlikely (not 100%, but highly unlikely) that whoever picks him up at the deadline would try and extend him for next season. So we would have as fair a shot at signing him in the off-season as anyone, if not the advantage (assuming he does in fact want to be in Montreal).

So unless he’s willing to sign for short and cheap, before the deadline (which I think is unlikely, as I expect him to absolutely go into the off-season as a UFA), it’s actually an absolute must that we trade him. Not to mention that the fact that if we’re not in a position to make the playoffs he would almost guaranteed want to be traded to a team that is. He might actually take offence to us not trading him and giving him that opportunity. 

So I think our best shot at signing him for next year is to trade him to a contender and make it crystal clear that we DO want him back next year. It’s like they say, “if you love something, set it free...”

 

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3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Suzuki started with Thompson on the 4th line and then did some time on the wing when we had injuries. He's done what he's been asked to do. Earlier when asked about the wing or center he said he didn't care as he played both during juniors. He didn't start on the pp or pk. He work ethic ,attitude and most of all his hockey IQ and playing responsibly (basically being a 200' player) has earned him playing time and position. He has earned the coaches trust by doing what they ask. Stankos when he came into the league watched a lot of games from the press box as a rookie. Later on he said it helped him. Having the right attitude means a lot. No matter the skill level the NHL is another step. 

:6280:

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3 hours ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

 

- For us to keep Kovy (and me be comfortable with it) he’s going to have to be willing to take less money and term than other teams are willing to offer. Basically, give us a discount because Montreal is where he wants to be.

 

 

I don't think there are any players at age 35 who would take less term and money to stay in Montreal, or anywhere.

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5 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

I think if the plan is to bring in Romanov once his KHL deal expires, it only stands to reason that you would want a guy like Kovalchuk.  A veteran presence for the young Russian to mentor under signed to a modest extension is a huge asset.  It also helps young sniper Cole Caufield.  I would be interested to see if Caufield ends this season in Laval, if not MTL to add scoring punch.  I would be interested to know how contract talks are going for both Romanov and Caufield.

I would prefer to see him in Laval next year for at least half the season. 

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3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Suzuki started with Thompson on the 4th line and then did some time on the wing when we had injuries. He's done what he's been asked to do. Earlier when asked about the wing or center he said he didn't care as he played both during juniors. He didn't start on the pp or pk. He work ethic ,attitude and most of all his hockey IQ and playing responsibly (basically being a 200' player) has earned him playing time and position. He has earned the coaches trust by doing what they ask. Stankos when he came into the league watched a lot of games from the press box as a rookie. Later on he said it helped him. Having the right attitude means a lot. No matter the skill level the NHL is another step. 

What short memory we have, the lineup to start the year was

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher 

Lehkonen-Domi-SUZUKI

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia

Byron-Thompson-Weal

It was that way through the first 9 or 10 games before Suzuki was dropped to the 4th line. The following link is a line by line analysis done on Oct 1st to prove my point of Suzuki getting handed a top 6 role. If anyone had earned it it was Kotkaniemi who put up 39 points in 78 games the year before while only getting 3rd line minutes and very little PP time.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/line-line-pairing-pairing-analysis-2019-20-canadiens/sn-amp/

Argue all you want but facts are facts Suzuki earned NOTHING at the start of the year he was HANDED the role.

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

What short memory we have, the lineup to start the year was

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher 

Lehkonen-Domi-SUZUKI

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia

Byron-Thompson-Weal

It was that way through the first 9 or 10 games before Suzuki was dropped to the 4th line. The following link is a line by line analysis done on Oct 1st to prove my point of Suzuki getting handed a top 6 role. If anyone had earned it it was Kotkaniemi who put up 39 points in 78 games the year before while only getting 3rd line minutes and very little PP time.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/line-line-pairing-pairing-analysis-2019-20-canadiens/sn-amp/

Argue all you want but facts are facts Suzuki earned NOTHING at the start of the year he was HANDED the role.

That may be true, but he has shown that he deserves 2nd line minutes. 

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7 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

That may be true, but he has shown that he deserves 2nd line minutes. 

Absolutely now he does deserve the role but the argument was why are some guys handed top 6 roles like Suzuki but guys like KK who has just as much tallent and was even praised by CJ at the end of last season not afforded the same opportunities from this team. There is no arguing that at this point in the year both Suzuki and KK are where they should be BUT would KK need to be in Laval IF he was afforded the same role as Suzuki was awarded? We will never know but we can all see what saddling him with Weal, Cousins, Lehkonen, Peca, Weise and other 4th line quality players has done to the kids confidence.

Edited by campabee82
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1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

What short memory we have, the lineup to start the year was

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher 

Lehkonen-Domi-SUZUKI

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia

Byron-Thompson-Weal

It was that way through the first 9 or 10 games before Suzuki was dropped to the 4th line. The following link is a line by line analysis done on Oct 1st to prove my point of Suzuki getting handed a top 6 role. If anyone had earned it it was Kotkaniemi who put up 39 points in 78 games the year before while only getting 3rd line minutes and very little PP time.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/line-line-pairing-pairing-analysis-2019-20-canadiens/sn-amp/

Argue all you want but facts are facts Suzuki earned NOTHING at the start of the year he was HANDED the role.

You actually with the very start having JK with Drouin (the teams best winger) and Armia JK diffidently wasn't being punished? Suzuki was at wing also. Which JK even as a rookie has been given a center position for "almost" all of his playing time. Even as I did state Suzuki has played a much smarter overall game than JK. Having skill is only part of the game. Also the way Jullien likes to roll lines when everyone is healthy it's more of a top 9 than just a top 6 usually gives you good ice time. Suzuki wasn't put on the PP right away either and Suzuki earned his way into PK duties as well. I am one who likes JK , but he actually played himself to where he is now. He is still only 19. He may of been better off staying in Finland an extra year or starting in Laval. The team at the time (last season) though was in such need they wanted him up as a center ASAP. The team needs are different now and there isn't a reason to rush him now.  If he is a true professional this stint in Laval he will take advantage of and he'll be better off in the long run. The commentators on Sports net were basically saying that there is no exact path for every player some take longer and some do go up and down. 

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5 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

You actually with the very start having JK with Drouin (the teams best winger) and Armia JK diffidently wasn't being punished? Suzuki was at wing also. Which JK even as a rookie has been given a center position for "almost" all of his playing time. Even as I did state Suzuki has played a much smarter overall game than JK. Having skill is only part of the game. Also the way Jullien likes to roll lines when everyone is healthy it's more of a top 9 than just a top 6 usually gives you good ice time. Suzuki wasn't put on the PP right away either and Suzuki earned his way into PK duties as well. I am one who likes JK , but he actually played himself to where he is now. He is still only 19. He may of been better off staying in Finland an extra year or starting in Laval. The team at the time (last season) though was in such need they wanted him up as a center ASAP. The team needs are different now and there isn't a reason to rush him now.  If he is a true professional this stint in Laval he will take advantage of and he'll be better off in the long run. The commentators on Sports net were basically saying that there is no exact path for every player some take longer and some do go up and down. 

I think my point is being missed. I like Suzuki and agree right now he is exactly where he deserves to be and also after the half season KK has had he is where he deserves to be. I was referring to how the team handles it's rookies. KK last year got piss poor wingers and averaged what about 12 minutes a night and still put up 39 points. Suzuki this year started on the 2nd line wing and before he was dropped to the 4th line was getting about 16 minutes a night. That's not equal treatment for 2 guys that project to both be a 1 or 2 center who were both in their respective roomie years. Plus as soon as Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia line started racking up points both Drouin and Armia were moved up and KK got the left overs again. That's when Suzuki was dropped back to the 4th line cause he wasn't producing and that's what turned both Suzuki's and KK's season around to their current situations. KK got frustrated at CJ and Suzuki started to play harder to earn back his spot. 

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8 hours ago, habs1952 said:

I don't think there are any players at age 35 who would take less term and money to stay in Montreal, or anywhere.

Your probably right. And there are going to be teams that offer him beyond reasonable money and term. I’ve liked having Kovalchuk so far, but I don’t want to have to go above and beyond in a bidding war just to get’em.

But you never know, he clearly wasn’t happy in Jersey, wasn’t happy in LA. He seems to be happy here. So maybe we trade him at the deadline and he has a Tatar/Vegas like experience. Maybe if Montreal is the only positive playing experience for him in recent memory, it will help tip the scales.

Also, just to be clear, I don’t expect Kovalchuk to sign another 700k contract. I just suspect that there will be at least one team out there willing to pay 5$ x 3 years, and anything resembling that or higher is just more than I’d be comfortable with

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10 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I think my point is being missed. I like Suzuki and agree right now he is exactly where he deserves to be and also after the half season KK has had he is where he deserves to be. I was referring to how the team handles it's rookies. KK last year got piss poor wingers and averaged what about 12 minutes a night and still put up 39 points. Suzuki this year started on the 2nd line wing and before he was dropped to the 4th line was getting about 16 minutes a night. That's not equal treatment for 2 guys that project to both be a 1 or 2 center who were both in their respective roomie years. Plus as soon as Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia line started racking up points both Drouin and Armia were moved up and KK got the left overs again. That's when Suzuki was dropped back to the 4th line cause he wasn't producing and that's what turned both Suzuki's and KK's season around to their current situations. KK got frustrated at CJ and Suzuki started to play harder to earn back his spot. 

No two rookies or any players are treated the same on any team for a variety of reasons. JK had a decent rookie year playing on the 3rd line facing a lot less tougher match ups and getting more offensive zone starts. He was being protected as a rookie should be. He also trailed off quite a bit in the second half last season. Early this year he did have a good start but it was more of Drouin and Armia making him look better. The above bold as you stated is the difference. Domi's name is on the board 'because" of attitude, but somehow JK gets frustrated or "loses confidence " and it's the coaches fault. It's the NHL they are all professionals , play your way to where you need to be. 

It doesn't matter what job you have everyone has control of two things...….Attitude and Effort.     

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https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/traikos-oilers-will-find-out-if-theyre-a-one-man-show-with-mcdavid-out

If Toronto has a soft spot for its grinders (see: Wendel Clark, Darcy Tucker and now Kyle Clifford), then Montreal has a spot in its heart for those who play the game with ample amount of flair (see: Guy Lafleur and Alex Kovalev). That’s why the Ilya Kovalchuk experiment is working out as well as it has. No one appreciates talent and passion quite like Habs fans, who have embraced Kovalchuk as one of their own since Day 1. That’s why a contract extension seems like a no-brainer … That Kovalchuk has embraced — and fed off — the spotlight in Montreal is not a surprise. Though he spent most of his career in Atlanta and New Jersey, he played six seasons in Russia for SKA St. Petersburg, which is sort of the KHL’s equivalent of the Canadiens.

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Dreger reporting that Habs have started talks with Kovalchuk about a contract extension, which could look something like 1 year, 3.5M base salary with bonuses potentially bringing it up to 5M. If that's the deal Kovalchuk wants, it's a hard pass for me. If we were going to do a bonus-enhanced contract, it would look more like this for me:

2.5M base salary

750k for playing in 60 games

750k for 40 points

Base shouldn't be more than 3M and total value with bonuses shouldn't exceed 4M. If you're paying 5M to Kovalchuk, you may as well find another younger guy like Drouin or Tatar or so on to pay.

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On 2/9/2020 at 8:54 PM, campabee82 said:

I think my point is being missed. I like Suzuki and agree right now he is exactly where he deserves to be and also after the half season KK has had he is where he deserves to be. I was referring to how the team handles it's rookies. KK last year got piss poor wingers and averaged what about 12 minutes a night and still put up 39 points. Suzuki this year started on the 2nd line wing and before he was dropped to the 4th line was getting about 16 minutes a night. That's not equal treatment for 2 guys that project to both be a 1 or 2 center who were both in their respective roomie years. Plus as soon as Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Armia line started racking up points both Drouin and Armia were moved up and KK got the left overs again. That's when Suzuki was dropped back to the 4th line cause he wasn't producing and that's what turned both Suzuki's and KK's season around to their current situations. KK got frustrated at CJ and Suzuki started to play harder to earn back his spot. 

While I do think KK should have been afforded more top 6 minutes and PP time, I think part of the difference is age.   Suzuki came in as a 20 year old ... on Oct 1 this year KK was still the 3rd youngest player in the league ... so they wanted to shelter him longer given his age and he slumped.   Then injuries happened and he got saddled with guys like Weal, Cousins and Peca ... where instead they should have moved him up to 1C or 2C and Danault play more of a checking role.    But definitely I see the difference between KK and Suzuki's usage coming down more to age and maturity than anything else.    

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2 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

While I do think KK should have been afforded more top 6 minutes and PP time, I think part of the difference is age.   Suzuki came in as a 20 year old ... on Oct 1 this year KK was still the 3rd youngest player in the league ... so they wanted to shelter him longer given his age and he slumped.   Then injuries happened and he got saddled with guys like Weal, Cousins and Peca ... where instead they should have moved him up to 1C or 2C and Danault play more of a checking role.    But definitely I see the difference between KK and Suzuki's usage coming down more to age and maturity than anything else.    

Wrong thread???

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Dreger reporting that Habs have started talks with Kovalchuk about a contract extension, which could look something like 1 year, 3.5M base salary with bonuses potentially bringing it up to 5M. If that's the deal Kovalchuk wants, it's a hard pass for me. If we were going to do a bonus-enhanced contract, it would look more like this for me:

2.5M base salary

750k for playing in 60 games

750k for 40 points

Base shouldn't be more than 3M and total value with bonuses shouldn't exceed 4M. If you're paying 5M to Kovalchuk, you may as well find another younger guy like Drouin or Tatar or so on to pay.

I would love it if Kovy signed this kind of contract with Montreal ...he knows what he's worth but I think it would have to be at least a 2 or 3 yr deal ...I'm all in  for signing him now and keeping both  him and his attitude in the dressing room ...that miked-up session during the skills competition in Montreal shows what a great addition and teammate this guy has been in his short time in Montreal ...I also think being comfortable in a city with his family  makes all the difference at this stage of his career ..if he believes Montreal is on the right path he'll sign

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1 hour ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

Wrong thread???

Read what I replied to

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Dreger reporting that Habs have started talks with Kovalchuk about a contract extension, which could look something like 1 year, 3.5M base salary with bonuses potentially bringing it up to 5M. If that's the deal Kovalchuk wants, it's a hard pass for me. If we were going to do a bonus-enhanced contract, it would look more like this for me:

2.5M base salary

750k for playing in 60 games

750k for 40 points

Base shouldn't be more than 3M and total value with bonuses shouldn't exceed 4M. If you're paying 5M to Kovalchuk, you may as well find another younger guy like Drouin or Tatar or so on to pay.

i get what you're saying but if its a 1 year deal I can live with it. You know we arent paying to the cap anyway so might as well use it on Kovy. I think one more year having him around guys like Suzuki and JK (and possibly caufield) could be a huge long-term gain for our young talented players. 

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57 minutes ago, maas_art said:

i get what you're saying but if its a 1 year deal I can live with it. You know we arent paying to the cap anyway so might as well use it on Kovy. I think one more year having him around guys like Suzuki and JK (and possibly caufield) could be a huge long-term gain for our young talented players. 

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand, you don't want to set a bad precedent of overpaying for UFA's that other guys will start to compare themselves too and you have to think about how moveable the contract is if ever you want to trade him at next year's deadline. Kovy had a nice 10-15 game stretch when he first got here, but he's cooled off since and at 36-37, he's still a gamble as to what he brings you next year. I think he can get it done for bursts, but I am not sure how he will perform over a full season, and there are questions too:

- Will Kovy bring it as much if his career is no longer on life support?

- Will he be getting 1st-line minutes next year as he was for a large part of his hot-streak?

- Can he hold up playing 1st-line minutes?

- If there's a new coach, will that person like him as much as Julien appears to?

I like Kovalchuk as a place holder. It gives you a year to figure out what you're doing with guys like Caufield or Ylonen. It maybe lets you trade one of Tatar, Domi, or Drouin for other assets. And it gets you an expiring contract in 2021, when you have a boatload of guys to re-sign. But at the same time, the price has to reflect his age and performance. You look at guys like Marleau and Jagr, and these guys didn't live up to their latest deals. You look at Justin Williams and he's got a base deal of 700k with a max of 2M with bonuses included. Joe Thornton is playing for 2M and he's better than Kovalchuk. To me, max'ing out at 4M with bonuses included is reasonable and maybe even generous as an offer. Other than the 10-15 game stretch here, Kovalchuk hasn't done much in the NHL in a long time, so there's no impetus there to have to give more.

 

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If 3.5M is what he wants, why not? As it stands, we're not going to compete for the cup next season anyway and there's currently nobody he'd be taking valuable ice time away from. Caufield isn't ready for prime time, there's no point in rushing him given the current state of the team. Signing Kovalchuk to a 1-year deal won't hurt us. You could still trade him next season, there will be takers for sure.

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Martin McGuire reporting the same thing as Dreger, which is that the Habs have submitted a 1-year offer to Kovalchuk for 3.5M plus incentives. He has until tomorrow to accept it or he could be traded...

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