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ramcharger440

Enough

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Posted (edited)

after last nights game and another poor season with no real changes made to improve an average team even with cap space to do it early in the year when it may have made some kind of difference it is time to call it with this management team. Enough is enough! MB confirms CJ for next year already when this team is going nowhere! he himself has done nothing of note for at least two years to really make us better we are going nowhere fast we have had two complete 8 game meltdowns we can't hold a lead to save our lives and the coach is confirmed already! this is a farce of the highest order! on the day a living legend form our team passes it is a sad state of affairs we have here right now and it is now obvious it will not get any better with the group we have in place. CJ  is still coaching like it is 10 years ago MB is still calling out or promising # rookie centers! it is like a bad dream over and over! come on enough is enough! we need a GM  who does not think trades are hard! and a coach who can try new systems! if the ownership does not see this we are doomed to be middle of the road for years to come. So sad the Pocket Rocket is a reminder of when this team took chances and had the best players and the best coaches and the best Gm's in hockey. Now we are a joke.

Edited by ramcharger440
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Things Marc Bergevin has done:

Turned PK into Weber (no one mentions this anymore for some reason, now that it's clear we won it)

Turned Galchenyuk into Domi

Turned Pacioretty into Suzuki, Tatar and a pick

Got Paul Byron off waivers

Picked up Armia by taking on cap space

Turned Dale Weise into Danaul and Romanov (pick)

Turned a second-round pick into Petry and then extended him to a reasonable amount

Signed Gallagher (and Pacioretty) to incredible team-friendly deals

Just this year, through Kovalchuk and Scandella, he turned a fourth-round pick into a second and a third (with a chance Kovalchuk is coming back)

 

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

I'm not trading Weber and Price right now. Their elite talents and almost impossible to replace. But because MB won't do that, he sucks!

Yes, the Alzner deal was a disaster, that whole offseason was just wrong, but everyone is entitled to make a mistake here and there. 

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

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19 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Things Marc Bergevin has done:

Turned PK into Weber (no one mentions this anymore for some reason, now that it's clear we won it)

Turned Galchenyuk into Domi

Turned Pacioretty into Suzuki, Tatar and a pick

Got Paul Byron off waivers

Picked up Armia by taking on cap space

Turned Dale Weise into Danaul and Romanov (pick)

Turned a second-round pick into Petry and then extended him to a reasonable amount

Signed Gallagher (and Pacioretty) to incredible team-friendly deals

Just this year, through Kovalchuk and Scandella, he turned a fourth-round pick into a second and a third (with a chance Kovalchuk is coming back)

 

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

I'm not trading Weber and Price right now. Their elite talents and almost impossible to replace. But because MB won't do that, he sucks!

Yes, the Alzner deal was a disaster, that whole offseason was just wrong, but everyone is entitled to make a mistake here and there. 

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

To earn respect you have to win! and make the team better. fail and fail.

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18 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Things Marc Bergevin has done:

...

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

...

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

Build a team that wins?  That's the long and short of it.

 

He's had free reign and unlimited resources with which to build this team.  He's been at it for close to a decade and we're worse off now than when he started.  Yes, it's a hard job, and yes, we've had bad luck, and yes, not every team can win.   But we're not close to being a true competitor, and the moves he makes don't seem to indicate that he understands that.  In the last few years in particular all you hear about is us setting records for worst seasons, for losing streaks, etc.  I'll turn your question around on you: exactly how bad does this team have to be before you think it would be worth changing out the GM?

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5 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

To earn respect you have to win! and make the team better. fail and fail.

I judge him by what he does, by the moves he makes and doesn't make. I'm content with him being GM for the next 10 years. Habs fans are starting to sound more and more like Leafs fans

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

I judge him by what he does, by the moves he makes and doesn't make. I'm content with him being GM for the next 10 years. Habs fans are starting to sound more and more like Leafs fans

I totally understand both sides - what you’re saying vs the fire MB momentum. I’ve said many times that I have this love , hate deal with MB but unfortunately mostly all the other teams in our conference have improved or surpassed his progress, and while he appears to be on the right track, it’s not good enough by the comparables 

I can’t see 10 more years of rope for him - I would prefer he’s either out at the end of the season or one year maximum 
 

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2 hours ago, habsisme said:

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

Maybe not take a team that finished 1st in it's conference and tinkering them to the point they miss the playoffs 3 years straight?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, habsisme said:

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

This year was the year to make those moves.     Next year ...

a) Our veterens like Weber, Petry, Tatar etc will be 1 year older and regressed 1 year more .. their value will be lower.   

b )  Petry/Tatar are also UFA next year ... the year of the expansion draft.  So given we can only protect so many players and that Tatar/Petry will want long term contracts we likely lose both to free agency for nothing.

c ) The expansion draft will lower trade value as teams juggle their protected lists.

And news flash that's exactly what we are doing now ... watching a bunch of nobodies be bottom feeders for the past 3 years.    While scouting might be on Timmins,  the rest of the roster is on MB and he's failed utterly in constructing a competent team.     

Edited by HabsAlways
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The problem with MB is that he either has no plan, or cant see big picture.

Honestly i dont have a problem with pretty near any of his trades or his contracts.  I do have a problem with him devaluing players. Sure its worked out (domi > galchenyuk) but imagine if we hadnt devalued the player first? Maybe we could have gotten Domi + 2nd or something.  Anyway, thats detail thing.

Individually, in a vacuum most of his moves are fine - good even  - but a team isnt built in a vacuum. You gotta look at the needs of the team.  How many years have we had absolutely no one of quality on the LD?


The best analogy I can give for MB is this: He's putting new granite counters in the kitchen while the foundation is crumbling and the basement is flooding.  His tinkering is fine if the team is already good. But when you have huge holes at key positions, getting great quality 4th liners should not be a priority. 

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

Things Marc Bergevin has done:

Turned PK into Weber (no one mentions this anymore for some reason, now that it's clear we won it)

Turned Galchenyuk into Domi

Turned Pacioretty into Suzuki, Tatar and a pick

Got Paul Byron off waivers

Picked up Armia by taking on cap space

Turned Dale Weise into Danaul and Romanov (pick)

Turned a second-round pick into Petry and then extended him to a reasonable amount

Signed Gallagher (and Pacioretty) to incredible team-friendly deals

Just this year, through Kovalchuk and Scandella, he turned a fourth-round pick into a second and a third (with a chance Kovalchuk is coming back)

 

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

I'm not trading Weber and Price right now. Their elite talents and almost impossible to replace. But because MB won't do that, he sucks!

Yes, the Alzner deal was a disaster, that whole offseason was just wrong, but everyone is entitled to make a mistake here and there. 

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

  the one thing Bergevin has consistently done since coming to the conclusion that draft choices and prospects weren't worth rental players at deadline is hold onto draft picks ...the Team Prospect Ranking is anywhere from 2nd to 6th depending who you talk to ...they have netted in recent years KK , Poehling , Fleury , Romanov , Primeau and Caulfield ( + Sergachev for Drouin , Galchenyuk for Domi )...you can argue whether you like the trades or not but he hung onto them nevertheless and these players will be staples on the team for quite awhile at decent salary out-lay ...he's not about to reverse this trend until a viable game- breaker comes up for grabs in a trade  . 

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3 hours ago, habsisme said:

Things Marc Bergevin has done:

Turned PK into Weber (no one mentions this anymore for some reason, now that it's clear we won it)

Turned Galchenyuk into Domi

Turned Pacioretty into Suzuki, Tatar and a pick

Got Paul Byron off waivers

Picked up Armia by taking on cap space

Turned Dale Weise into Danaul and Romanov (pick)

Turned a second-round pick into Petry and then extended him to a reasonable amount

Signed Gallagher (and Pacioretty) to incredible team-friendly deals

Just this year, through Kovalchuk and Scandella, he turned a fourth-round pick into a second and a third (with a chance Kovalchuk is coming back)

 

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

I'm not trading Weber and Price right now. Their elite talents and almost impossible to replace. But because MB won't do that, he sucks!

Yes, the Alzner deal was a disaster, that whole offseason was just wrong, but everyone is entitled to make a mistake here and there. 

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

But those things only means to an end, the end being, of course, winning, and he hasn't done that - the team is worse than what he started with.

 

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4 hours ago, habsisme said:

Things Marc Bergevin has done:

Turned PK into Weber (no one mentions this anymore for some reason, now that it's clear we won it) Lateral move

Turned Galchenyuk into Domi Lateral Move

Turned Pacioretty into Suzuki, Tatar and a pick Plus move

Got Paul Byron off waivers Depth move

Picked up Armia by taking on cap space Depth move

Turned Dale Weise into Danaul and Romanov (pick) Plus move

Turned a second-round pick into Petry and then extended him to a reasonable amount Plus move

Signed Gallagher (and Pacioretty) to incredible team-friendly deals

Just this year, through Kovalchuk and Scandella, he turned a fourth-round pick into a second and a third (with a chance Kovalchuk is coming back)

 

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

I'm not trading Weber and Price right now. Their elite talents and almost impossible to replace. But because MB won't do that, he sucks!

Yes, the Alzner deal was a disaster, that whole offseason was just wrong, but everyone is entitled to make a mistake here and there. 

I don't want to watch a team of nobodies suddenly learn to win after being bottom feeders for 3-4 years. I'm not as optimistic that this will turn us into winners. We have a lot of picks and we need to draft better in the first round, that's on Timmins (though he's great in later rounds). 

I agree with MB that we need to keep trying to win. If next year is as bad as this year and there are teams willing to trade prospects for some of our expiring contracts, then I'm sure MB will make those moves. 

Ok, as you can see I have graded the significant moves. 

1. lateral moves obviously don't improve the team. as much as subban has fallen off a cliff in NJ (funny how we only won after he falls off a cliff, forget that it was a clear loss for the 1st 3 years) and as much as chuck has turned out to be a big nothing burger, the guys we got in, weber and domi, are essentially doing the jobs those guys were doing while they were here. so its a wash

2. Plus moves.....danault turns out to be a big win, however, he is merely a replacement for what plekanec was, which is an asset we completely mismanaged. so once again, its a wash.

Despite the fact that I think he totally lucked out and fluked off the pacioretty trade (tatar was a throw in to offset salary, the prospect we actually wanted was cody glass and we could have gotten a bigger return if we had identified the situation properly and prepared it i.e sakic with duchene) , a spade is a spade, its a win. tatar replaced patch production and suzuki looks like he will be a legit top 6 player. petry was also a clear win, great move and signing.

This leaves us in decent shape. these moves dont drastically improve the team, its largely lateral turnover from the previous edition, however that edition was fairly successful.

He loses all respect at this point:

the last time this edition....HIS edition.....made the playoffs, it included radulov, who is a better forward than any forward we currently have, and markov, who was still playing at a very high level.

He lets them both walk for nothing.........in the process disrespecting markov completely, who is an all time hab hero I might add.......panics, trades markov's replacement for radulov's replacement (drouin) and tries to replace markov with karl alzner. 

Both moves are monumental failures, and we bomb the season. how this man doers not get fired at that point is just mind boggling, and instead he keeps his job, and gives us a team that is short an $8 million forward and a $5 million defenseman, and tells us with a straight face its a playoff team. It was barely a playoff team with those 2. We rolled over and died unceremoniously in the 1st Rd. 

This guy is either delusional, or he is putting his ego and job security over the team, or both. It is a complete disrespect to the fanbase, and if he doesn't respect us, we should not respect him, so there you go.

You want my respect? grow a pair and admit that missing the playoffs 3 years in a row I guess kinda proves that this team isnt good enough, and sacrifice some asset capital to win now, or rebuild it. 

Im with you ramcharger. Its enough. take your loser talk and your cliches and your half measures and beat it.

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27 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

Ok, as you can see I have graded the significant moves. 

1. lateral moves obviously don't improve the team. as much as subban has fallen off a cliff in NJ (funny how we only won after he falls off a cliff, forget that it was a clear loss for the 1st 3 years) and as much as chuck has turned out to be a big nothing burger, the guys we got in, weber and domi, are essentially doing the jobs those guys were doing while they were here. so its a wash

2. Plus moves.....danault turns out to be a big win, however, he is merely a replacement for what plekanec was, which is an asset we completely mismanaged. so once again, its a wash.

Despite the fact that I think he totally lucked out and fluked off the pacioretty trade (tatar was a throw in to offset salary, the prospect we actually wanted was cody glass and we could have gotten a bigger return if we had identified the situation properly and prepared it i.e sakic with duchene) , a spade is a spade, its a win. tatar replaced patch production and suzuki looks like he will be a legit top 6 player. petry was also a clear win, great move and signing.

This leaves us in decent shape. these moves dont drastically improve the team, its largely lateral turnover from the previous edition, however that edition was fairly successful.

He loses all respect at this point:

the last time this edition....HIS edition.....made the playoffs, it included radulov, who is a better forward than any forward we currently have, and markov, who was still playing at a very high level.

He lets them both walk for nothing.........in the process disrespecting markov completely, who is an all time hab hero I might add.......panics, trades markov's replacement for radulov's replacement (drouin) and tries to replace markov with karl alzner. 

Both moves are monumental failures, and we bomb the season. how this man doers not get fired at that point is just mind boggling, and instead he keeps his job, and gives us a team that is short an $8 million forward and a $5 million defenseman, and tells us with a straight face its a playoff team. It was barely a playoff team with those 2. We rolled over and died unceremoniously in the 1st Rd. 

This guy is either delusional, or he is putting his ego and job security over the team, or both. It is a complete disrespect to the fanbase, and if he doesn't respect us, we should not respect him, so there you go.

You want my respect? grow a pair and admit that missing the playoffs 3 years in a row I guess kinda proves that this team isnt good enough, and sacrifice some asset capital to win now, or rebuild it. 

Im with you ramcharger. Its enough. take your loser talk and your cliches and your half measures and beat it.

This say's it all. i gave him a lot of rope he has done nothing to make this team any better than it was when he got here. we are no farther ahead sure he got some guy's in but they replaced players we already had they are not much better than what was already here. his biggest mistakes are not trades he has made it is the stuff he did not do. the coaching in Laval was so bad for so long we did not develop much! hanging on to MT for so long i mean come on! CJ is just a journyman coach stick in another era all moves he made! and if anyone thinks it made sense to get rid of the entire Lhd lineup in one year.......well then i don't know. he needed to take a risk and get new impact players in the right positions to make us stronger other GM'S seem to be able to sign impact players often more than one so i am done with this guy others can spend another 8-10 years supporting him i can't.

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4 hours ago, habsisme said:

I judge him by what he does, by the moves he makes and doesn't make. I'm content with him being GM for the next 10 years. Habs fans are starting to sound more and more like Leafs fans

LOL!

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5 hours ago, habsisme said:

What does this guy need to do to earn a little respect?????

Start by making the playoffs

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25 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

Ok, as you can see I have graded the significant moves. 

1. lateral moves obviously don't improve the team. as much as subban has fallen off a cliff in NJ (funny how we only won after he falls off a cliff, forget that it was a clear loss for the 1st 3 years) and as much as chuck has turned out to be a big nothing burger, the guys we got in, weber and domi, are essentially doing the jobs those guys were doing while they were here. so its a wash

2. Plus moves.....danault turns out to be a big win, however, he is merely a replacement for what plekanec was, which is an asset we completely mismanaged. so once again, its a wash.

Despite the fact that I think he totally lucked out and fluked off the pacioretty trade (tatar was a throw in to offset salary, the prospect we actually wanted was cody glass and we could have gotten a bigger return if we had identified the situation properly and prepared it i.e sakic with duchene) , a spade is a spade, its a win. tatar replaced patch production and suzuki looks like he will be a legit top 6 player. petry was also a clear win, great move and signing.

This leaves us in decent shape. these moves dont drastically improve the team, its largely lateral turnover from the previous edition, however that edition was fairly successful.

He loses all respect at this point:

the last time this edition....HIS edition.....made the playoffs, it included radulov, who is a better forward than any forward we currently have, and markov, who was still playing at a very high level.

He lets them both walk for nothing.........in the process disrespecting markov completely, who is an all time hab hero I might add.......panics, trades markov's replacement for radulov's replacement (drouin) and tries to replace markov with karl alzner. 

Both moves are monumental failures, and we bomb the season. how this man doers not get fired at that point is just mind boggling, and instead he keeps his job, and gives us a team that is short an $8 million forward and a $5 million defenseman, and tells us with a straight face its a playoff team. It was barely a playoff team with those 2. We rolled over and died unceremoniously in the 1st Rd. 

This guy is either delusional, or he is putting his ego and job security over the team, or both. It is a complete disrespect to the fanbase, and if he doesn't respect us, we should not respect him, so there you go.

You want my respect? grow a pair and admit that missing the playoffs 3 years in a row I guess kinda proves that this team isnt good enough, and sacrifice some asset capital to win now, or rebuild it. 

Im with you ramcharger. Its enough. take your loser talk and your cliches and your half measures and beat it.

 Just one point I'd like to clarify on the Weber/ Subban comparison ….I don't believe it was "a clear loss ' for Montreal  the first 3 years ..Weber played 162 games in the 1st 3yrs  and had 37 goals 54 a for 91 points a .56 ppg clip ...Subban had 35 goals and 95 assists in 211 games a .61 ppg . during that same time frame Subban was a +15 in 211 games while Weber was a plus +27 in 162 games . Also in that time frame Weber had 19 ppg & 14 assists for 33 ppps to Subbans 10 g & 10 assists for 20 ppps in 49 more games . Subban had the luxury of playing on a stacked defense in Nashville and Weber has played a bunch with a rookie in Montreal as the #1 pairing .So that comes to this year which has to be included in the 4- year trade conversation as well and where we see Weber is continuing his .56 career ppg production and Subban is now down to .53 ppg over the course of the trade . To further the comparison Subban over the course of the trade is a minus- 4 and Weber is a plus + 38 . There is a reason NHL players regard Weber highly and not so much Subban . And I was a Subban fan but he's certainly no clear cut winner of this trade even in  the 1st three years .

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2 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 Just one point I'd like to clarify on the Weber/ Subban comparison ….I don't believe it was "a clear loss ' for Montreal  the first 3 years ..Weber played 162 games in the 1st 3yrs  and had 37 goals 54 a for 91 points a .56 ppg clip ...Subban had 35 goals and 95 assists in 211 games a .61 ppg . during that same time frame Subban was a +15 in 211 games while Weber was a plus +27 in 162 games . Also in that time frame Weber had 19 ppg & 14 assists for 33 ppps to Subbans 10 g & 10 assists for 20 ppps in 49 more games . Subban had the luxury of playing on a stacked defense in Nashville and Weber has played a bunch with a rookie in Montreal as the #1 pairing .So that comes to this year which has to be included in the 4- year trade conversation as well and where we see Weber is continuing his .56 career ppg production and Subban is now down to .53 ppg over the course of the trade . To further the comparison Subban over the course of the trade is a minus- 4 and Weber is a plus + 38 . There is a reason NHL players regard Weber highly and not so much Subban . And I was a Subban fan but he's certainly no clear cut winner of this trade even in  the 1st three years .

It was a loss from the stand point that we traded the younger player straight up for the older one.    Ignoring Subban's total regression this year ... at the time of the trade he was a norris trophy winner and had just signed a long term deal with the Habs.   

We could dissect the value of each player to their teams at the time of the trade, but it came down to trading one skillset for another ... Subban was the better offensive player, Weber the defensive one.

Trading him for Weber wasn't the problem  ... the problem was Bergevin doing it 1 for 1 ... that's the sign of a GM who doesn't have a clue.     If you're going to get the guy who is 4 years older on a contract that doesn't expire till he's 40 you should be getting something along with Weber.

And what's even more interesting is you look at our record pre-Weber and post-Weber ... we've missed the playoffs 3 of the 4 years he's been with us.     You can try and look at the trade in hindsight all you want (where you include Subban's production this year), but the only fair way to judge Bergevin is not how the trade turned out but how it played out at the time, and bottom line is he gave up a Norris trophy winner for an older player on a terrible contract.

 

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30 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 Just one point I'd like to clarify on the Weber/ Subban comparison ….I don't believe it was "a clear loss ' for Montreal  the first 3 years ..Weber played 162 games in the 1st 3yrs  and had 37 goals 54 a for 91 points a .56 ppg clip ...Subban had 35 goals and 95 assists in 211 games a .61 ppg . during that same time frame Subban was a +15 in 211 games while Weber was a plus +27 in 162 games . Also in that time frame Weber had 19 ppg & 14 assists for 33 ppps to Subbans 10 g & 10 assists for 20 ppps in 49 more games . Subban had the luxury of playing on a stacked defense in Nashville and Weber has played a bunch with a rookie in Montreal as the #1 pairing .So that comes to this year which has to be included in the 4- year trade conversation as well and where we see Weber is continuing his .56 career ppg production and Subban is now down to .53 ppg over the course of the trade . To further the comparison Subban over the course of the trade is a minus- 4 and Weber is a plus + 38 . There is a reason NHL players regard Weber highly and not so much Subban . And I was a Subban fan but he's certainly no clear cut winner of this trade even in  the 1st three years .

not going to disregard these facts, all valid, all true. head to head stat to stat, its been pretty even.

Here's my take.

1. I agree with habsalways. if we had to trade him, I wanted 3 assets back like we got with patch. a lateral move for an older guy is a bad trade.

2. subban went to a cup final. then he won a presidents trophy and had another deep playoff run, within inches of a wcf final the next year. he was nominated for a norris and was a beast in both playoff runs

3. with the habs , he went to 2 ecf finals and a 2nd round. he was a beast and a major contributor in every playoff run we had which i believe was 3 appearances.

weber was brought into a team that had just made an ecf that bombed a year later. the thought was, subbans toxic personality was a cause of prolonged losing, and the lateral move would have intagibles like character and leadership that would have prevented such a breakdown from happening again.

his presence on the team has had no such impact. although he played very well in his one playoff run, it was a short and anticlimactic one. the fact is, we haven't won anything with weber as our star d. yes, nashville has had a way better overall team, but the fact is they did more with subban than they did with weber, and WE did more with subban than we did with weber. is that only on them as individuals? no. but its a fact. that coupled with the norris nomination thrown in there, and I give nashville the big nod as winners of that trade. I would also point out that as bad as he has done this year in NJ, nashville's decision to essentially trade him for duchene has blown up in their faces. They accomplished way more with him in the lineup vs. what they are now which is a bubble team on the outside. 

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8 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

It was a loss from the stand point that we traded the younger player straight up for the older one.    Ignoring Subban's total regression this year ... at the time of the trade he was a norris trophy winner and had just signed a long term deal with the Habs.   

We could dissect the value of each player to their teams at the time of the trade, but it came down to trading one skillset for another ... Subban was the better offensive player, Weber the defensive one.

Trading him for Weber wasn't the problem  ... the problem was Bergevin doing it 1 for 1 ... that's the sign of a GM who doesn't have a clue.     If you're going to get the guy who is 4 years older on a contract that doesn't expire till he's 40 you should be getting something along with Weber.

And what's even more interesting is you look at our record pre-Weber and post-Weber ... we've missed the playoffs 3 of the 4 years he's been with us.     You can try and look at the trade in hindsight all you want (where you include Subban's production this year), but the only fair way to judge Bergevin is not how the trade turned out but how it played out at the time, and bottom line is he gave up a Norris trophy winner for an older player on a terrible contract.

 

 My take is we traded a younger player (regardless of the Norris conversation) who had become a defensive liability and more of a solo player for a guy who had proven production , toughness , leadership and a team-first mentality  ….you can't pin the team's pre-Weber /post Weber  lack of success on one player any more than you can pin New jersey's year on Subban who in 65 games has 7 goals and 8 assists and is a minus -19 because he's playing on a poorer team than in Nashville ...I liked the trade immediately and would do again in a heartbeat at any time over the last 4 years regardless of the age difference 

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20 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

It was a loss from the stand point that we traded the younger player straight up for the older one.    Ignoring Subban's total regression this year ... at the time of the trade he was a norris trophy winner and had just signed a long term deal with the Habs.   

We could dissect the value of each player to their teams at the time of the trade, but it came down to trading one skillset for another ... Subban was the better offensive player, Weber the defensive one.

Trading him for Weber wasn't the problem  ... the problem was Bergevin doing it 1 for 1 ... that's the sign of a GM who doesn't have a clue.     If you're going to get the guy who is 4 years older on a contract that doesn't expire till he's 40 you should be getting something along with Weber.

And what's even more interesting is you look at our record pre-Weber and post-Weber ... we've missed the playoffs 3 of the 4 years he's been with us.     You can try and look at the trade in hindsight all you want (where you include Subban's production this year), but the only fair way to judge Bergevin is not how the trade turned out but how it played out at the time, and bottom line is he gave up a Norris trophy winner for an older player on a terrible contract.

 

It’s true that Subban was the younger player. But as much as you might not have liked Weber’s contract, Subban’s was worse. It came at a higher cap hit and it included a NTC. So on one hand, I too would expect a little something extra when trading a younger player for an older one, but on the other hand, if I was in Nashville’s position I’d have expected something extra for taking on the worse of the two contracts. So all in all I’d say it was a fairly reasonable one for one trade regardless of how it played out from there.

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3 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 My take is we traded a younger player (regardless of the Norris conversation) who had become a defensive liability 

And this right there is drinking deep of the Bergevin/Therrien cool aid ... he was not a defensive liability for us, he was puck possession monster that drove the offense.   Since he's been gone our biggest problem is zone exits and scoring ... strange how that all started when we traded the younger, offensively minded player for the older, slow defensively minded one

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Just now, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

It’s true that Subban was the younger player. But as much as you might not have liked Weber’s contract, Subban’s was worse. It came at a higher cap hit and it included a NTC. So on one hand, I too would expect a little something extra when trading a younger player for an older one, but on the other hand, if I was in Nashville’s position I’d have expected something extra for taking on the worse of the two contracts. So all in all I’d say it was a fairly reasonable one for one trade regardless of how it played out from there.

Subban's doesn't end when he's 40 ... He also had the Norris, which Weber didn't.     Value wise I'd say despite their different skillsets they were equally as valuable on the day of the trade ... so getting younger should always mean giving up a bit more regardless of the contract ... which in this case only has a cap hit different of 1.2 m .... so no, we didn't take on a much worse contract ... quite the opposite since Weber's goes till 2026 and he turns 40.    Weber has 6 years left @ 7.8m and Subban 3 @ 9 ... the contract differences in relation to the cap weren't enough to warrant it being 1 for 1 or Nashville getting more.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

after last nights game and another poor season with no real changes made to improve an average team even with cap space to do it early in the year when it may have made some kind of difference it is time to call it with this management team. Enough is enough! MB confirms CJ for next year already when this team is going nowhere! he himself has done nothing of note for at least two years to really make us better we are going nowhere fast we have had two complete 8 game meltdowns we can't hold a lead to save our lives and the coach is confirmed already! this is a farce of the highest order! on the day a living legend form our team passes it is a sad state of affairs we have here right now and it is now obvious it will not get any better with the group we have in place. CJ  is still coaching like it is 10 years ago MB is still calling out or promising # rookie centers! it is like a bad dream over and over! come on enough is enough! we need a GM  who does not think trades are hard! and a coach who can try new systems! if the ownership does not see this we are doomed to be middle of the road for years to come. So sad the Pocket Rocket is a reminder of when this team took chances and had the best players and the best coaches and the best Gm's in hockey. Now we are a joke.

RIP Henri Richard. I have been following the Canadiens since I was a small boy. They were able to beat other teams in so many different ways. A blowout. A comeback victory. A great individual performance - Maurice Richard in the 1944 semis against Toronto where he scored all 5 goals in a game 2 victory. And Ramcharger440, they are now a joke.

Edited by Larry-Launstein-Jr
Agrement with Ramcharger440.
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4 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Subban's doesn't end when he's 40 ... He also had the Norris, which Weber didn't.     Value wise I'd say despite their different skillsets they were equally as valuable on the day of the trade ... so getting younger should always mean giving up a bit more regardless of the contract ... which in this case only has a cap hit different of 1.2 m .... so no, we didn't take on a much worse contract ... quite the opposite since Weber's goes till 2026 and he turns 40.    Weber has 6 years left @ 7.8m and Subban 3 @ 9 ... the contract differences in relation to the cap weren't enough to warrant it being 1 for 1 or Nashville getting more.

Sorry I should’ve put more emphasis on the NTC, that’s what put PK’s contract over the top. Webber was, and still is tradable. Subban, with that NTC, not so much.

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

And this right there is drinking deep of the Bergevin/Therrien cool aid ... he was not a defensive liability for us, he was puck possession monster that drove the offense.   Since he's been gone our biggest problem is zone exits and scoring ... strange how that all started when we traded the younger, offensively minded player for the older, slow defensively minded one

 We can have our own opinions about whether the Subban/Weber trade has merits one way or the other . You can argue that he was a puck possession monster if you so choose and I'm not saying he wasn't effective in that manner but in my opinion he had become a defensive liability because he was coughing the puck up trying to do it all himself and trying moves like spinoramas in the D-zone  .This was becoming a regular occurrence that was leading to goals against . That's what I remember when I watched games . If I have an opinion about whether acquiring Weber was a good move or not there are plenty of fans that would agree and I'm sure plenty that wouldn't . That isn't to say that those who have a different opinion about this than you are " drinking deep of the Bergevin /Therrien cool aid " ...it's just an opinion of the value of a trade pros and cons which is the basis of discussion is it not ? 

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