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kinot-2
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On 4/18/2021 at 11:39 PM, kinot-2 said:

Isn't that a "racist" statement. :P

You "have" 3 golfing partners? Just asking. :rolleyes:

If you are all walking it is not too bad. But when you are riding you are sitting shoulder to shoulder and there are not enough carts for one rider each? Keep them closed until we get out of this third, fourth, fifth, sixth...........wave!!!!:wut2:

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3 hours ago, richard464 said:

If you are all walking it is not too bad. But when you are riding you are sitting shoulder to shoulder and there are not enough carts for one rider each? Keep them closed until we get out of this third, fourth, fifth, sixth...........wave!!!!:wut2:

Last year the carts were partitioned off to separate the 2 riders and there is no reason why both riders can't wear a mask while on the cart. And, if I'm not mistaken, not one case of Covid was related to golfing. People can fly sitting 3 feet apart in a tube but I can't golf walking six feet apart from my partners outdoors. Madness!

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3 minutes ago, habs1952 said:People can fly sitting 3 feet apart in a tube but I can't golf walking six feet apart from my partners outdoors. Madness!

You can also work in a manufacturing facility ( like Amazon ) but can’t go to a park 

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It's a real horror show in India right now. Those anti maskers and anti lockdown people should be given free tickets to India to work in Covid wards to experience first hand what's it like to sit back and do nothing. Hell,,,, maybe instead of fines that's what we should be doing here,,, making the party goers work the Covid wards in their local hospitals.

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2 hours ago, H_T_L said:

It is sad and also a sad state of affairs when a parent is hesitant to send their children to a hospital because of the current covid situation.. Heartbreaking .

It is sad but no more so than parents who lose babies, toddlers and youngsters to illness and disease. Where are the politicians expressing condolences in those cases? 

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I just can't wrap my head around the motivation for these anti maskers and lockdown people. I haven't heard a single one come up with an alternative plan. This BS they spew about infringing on their rights is just that,,,, a lot of bull. What about the rights of those who don't want to be exposed to this virus?  What is it exactly that they don't get? Should we just sit back and do nothing? We're seeing how that strategy is playing out in India. 

I have a sister in law waiting on surgery for a diagnosed cancer, and until this is under control, that procedure is on hold. I can just imagine how many others are in the same boat. What about their rights?

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I know I am in the minority here and a lot of people are not going to like what I am about to say. Covid is a serious health risk to certain groups of people, there is no denying that and we should no doubt be doing what we can to protect as many of the in the high risk demographics as possible. However none of the protocols put in place have even made a dent in protecting those people but have violated the rights and freedoms of all of us. My kids are afraid to go out side and play even in the front yard because when all of the lockdown and crap started they were outside playing together and someone in the neighborhood called the police because there were 8 children outside in a group. I actually had an argument with the officer about it cause 3 were from my house and 2 more were also siblings from another house. I asked him what if my wife, me and our 5 kids were outside together, his response was "if you are outside in a group larger than 5 people we will charge you". Like seriously we all live in the same house, eat the same food, share the same dishes and touch all of the same surfaces but we can't all go outside at the same time! Everyday we see more and more and more cases with no sign of slowing down even with all of these protocols and lockdowns. They simply are not working, the masks are a joke because they do not prevent the transmission of the virus, they just make people feel more secure in being around other people. Lockdowns and temporary closures of non-essential businesses are a joke, as the definition of a non-essential business is a joke itself. I can't go out and buy cloths, shoes or plumbing and electrical products (to repair toilets or lights or outlets) but I can go get alcohol, pot and cigarettes because the government needs to keep making their own money. Mental health issues are on the rise, alcoholism, drug abuse and many drug and alcohol based crimes but no one seems to care about that as long as we can protect certain demographics who cares about the rest of us. I am almost at the point where I could care less and am ready to say survival of the fittest should rule. I know that sounds cruel and arrogant but I really couldn't care anymore. I am not going to get vaccinated unless my employer forces me to and even then I am not going to do it without a fight. The fact that this virus is mutating and there is still no way to stop it suggests that there may never be a way to stop it, only slow it down. If that is the case lets get our lives back to normal and provide the shot to those who want to get it like we do with the flu shot. Enough of this pussyfooting around and screwing over the majority of the population for a select few, let them isolate and social distance themselves if that is what they want to do. Things need to get back to normal now that we know none of these measures work work a damn. It says a lot about our society when we have to shutdown the entire country to protect citizens from a virus that can be cured by washing your freaking hands!!! Suck it up people wash your damn hands! Well that is my rant and I hope not to have offended anyone here because I did not intend to. 

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39 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

. Covid is a serious health risk to certain groups of people, there is no denying that and we should no doubt be doing what we can to protect as many of the in the high risk demographics as possible.

I think it's a serious health risk to anyone. Recently a 13 yr old girl in Brampton passed away from it

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When you say back to normal,,, are you implying we do absolutely nothing and just let things get out of hand like it is in India? What's going to happen when your friends or relatives need to access the hospital and get turned away because they've been over run? Does it mean more if it affects your family directly? Before this current lockdown in Ontario, they we're projecting up to 12,000 daily cases in this province alone. At least it looks like we've peaked now although we've had to bring in outside help to man our maxed out hospitals.

I don't agree with every single measure of lockdowns. They're not intended to end pandemics, they're only intended to slow it down long enough to get enough people vaccinated. Seems to be working in the UK and Isreal.

I'm not going to diss somebody else's opinion but i would love to hear other solutions other then survival of the fittest. As mentioned,,, this virus is mutating. Do we wait until it mutates to a point where absolutely everybody who's infected risks dying? What's an acceptable rate of death,,,,, 3%, 10%, 50%? What if this mutates to the point where it's killing large numbers of children? Is it still survival of the fittest?

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3 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

I think it's a serious health risk to anyone. Recently a 13 yr old girl in Brampton passed away from it

Yes but how many people outside of the higher risk groups have passed away from it? Serious question, I really do not know the answer. I assume it is like the flu virus for healthy low risk individuals. You may get the odd anomaly that doesn't fit into the high risk categories but for the most part the vast majority of the population will be ok. Flu shots are not mandatory and are provided on a yearly basis to protect many of the same demographics that Covid affects why can't or shouldn't we do the same thing with the Covid vaccine? (another serious question).

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8 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Yes but how many people outside of the higher risk groups have passed away from it? 

A much higher percentage then the flu.

 

9 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Flu shots are not mandatory and are provided on a yearly basis to protect many of the same demographics that Covid affects why can't or shouldn't we do the same thing with the Covid vaccine? (another serious question).

In all likelyhood there will be some type of booster shot yearly to deal with variants in the near future. The more people get vaccinated worldwide the less chances variants have to develop if you follow the science. The fear is that a variant develops that becomes more deadly to all demographics before we get control in those poorer countries and that it becomes 100% vaccine resistant

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7 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

When you say back to normal,,, are you implying we do absolutely nothing and just let things get out of hand like it is in India? What's going to happen when your friends or relatives need to access the hospital and get turned away because they've been over run? Does it mean more if it affects your family directly? Before this current lockdown in Ontario, they we're projecting up to 12,000 daily cases in this province alone. At least it looks like we've peaked now although we've had to bring in outside help to man our maxed out hospitals.

I don't agree with every single measure of lockdowns. They're not intended to end pandemics, they're only intended to slow it down long enough to get enough people vaccinated. Seems to be working in the UK and Isreal.

I'm not going to diss somebody else's opinion but i would love to hear other solutions other then survival of the fittest. As mentioned,,, this virus is mutating. Do we wait until it mutates to a point where absolutely everybody who's infected risks dying? What's an acceptable rate of death,,,,, 3%, 10%, 50%? What if this mutates to the point where it's killing large numbers of children? Is it still survival of the fittest?

No absolutely not do nothing, I never said to do nothing. Right now so many of our friends and families are already being turned away from hospitals and urgent care units because of this. I am sure you are aware that the government has shutdown many hospitals, schools, jails, mental institutions over the last 20 or so years and those buildings are just sitting around empty and rotting. Why can't the government put them to use to house some of the covid patients while they recover? The government a while back implemented a PSW program for those on social services to help get them off of assistance and as a result flooded the industry so bad that too many people were without jobs. Some of those out of work PSW's could be hired to run these Covid recovery units. Of course some Doctors and Nurses would need to be on staff as well. I am just saying that there are many better options out there that would allow society to get up and running that the government is overlooking because of fear of doing the wrong things, but they keep trying things that clearly do not work. 

Explain how shutting down certain sections of a store but allowing the store to stay open slows down the virus. How about how you can't buy car parts to keep your car safe and on the road to travel between work and home but you can go get Pot and Beer, how does that slow down the virus? Every year people get the flu shot to prevent getting the flu, it is by choice, how is it now fair for my employer to say that I have to get the covid shot even if I do not want it fair to me? We will never be able to stop the virus completely, it will always be around much like the flu, does that mean that we should all have to isolate every 8-10 months for months at a time? IMO we should be looking at ways to relieve stress on hospitals like I suggested above while also allowing those who want to be vaccinated to be vaccinated. We should not be forcing anyone to do anything they do not wish to do ever. We should not be forcing lockdowns and fining people who go to parks or golfing or out to play hockey. Society needs to function as close to normal as possible otherwise the pandemic of opioid overdoses and alcohol related car accidents are going to continue to rise. As are many of the Drug and alcohol related crimes like B&E, auto theft and ***** that goes with them.

My survival of the fittest comment was a bit extreme, I am just so frustrated at the way the government is handling this. 

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Ok, like I said I wasn't trying to upset anyone. I just wanted to have my voice heard as well. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I will not post to this thread again as I understand that my view is offensive to others on here and I do not wish to further upset anyone, I also don't want anyone to think that I am trying to change the way they view the situation or that I don't understand that the virus is a serious concern to everyone. I know it is, I was just adding my perspective. 

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Campabee, just want to put a few things in perspective:

 

1. Not every measure put in place is extremely effective. Some work better than others. But the sum of these measures is without a doubt slowing the spread of the virus. If you simply opened all businesses and took away masks and social distancing and mass congregation and so on, the virus would be significantly more rampant. So I know it's frustrating to not see a clear effect of any one thing, but the total of what's being done is better than nothing. If I could make a hockey analogy since we're on a hockey board here, imagine you wanted to get Connor McDavid on your team as a UFA (equate signing him to having zero COVID) but he decides to go elsewhere. So instead you sign Jack Eichel (equate him to lockdown measures or masking or whatever else). That's still significantly better than signing Eric Staal (equate that to no health policies in place). Sure, it's not the optimal scenario that you envisioned, but it's still way better than the alternative. Letting people partake in outdoor activities is way less risky than indoor activities or other things, so I agree with you that there should be some leniency there, but all in all, we can't go down to no restrictions. We'd have exponentially more cases than we do now and a higher percentage of those cases would die because the capacity of the health care system is fairly fixed. And if you look at countries that followed restrictions to the max, well they worked and those countries are almost open 100% like there's no COVID.

2. Masking works. Again, it may not be 100% effective but just because it's not perfect, it doesn't mean it doesn't help to reduce spread. It's pretty clear that it does, again especially for indoor activities. You can't use masking alone and masking by itself is not enough, but it's still helpful. One thing that the WHO just announced and which needs to be made more clear to people is that COVID is an airborne disease. So just masking doesn't eliminate risk, but it does reduce it. Getting outdoors is significantly better than being in a crowd inside.

3. There is a potential end in sight. Vaccines are here, they're working to reduce spread. You look at Israel and the UK and the case numbers there have dropped substantially. We have great data that tells us vaccines reduce your own personal risk of getting COVID, they reduce the risk that you pass it on to a loved one (and particularly if you have kids or other family members who can't be vaccinated themselves), and most importantly, they reduce the risk of being hospitalized or dying (which in turn frees up healthcare resources to treat other problems). Again are vaccines perfect? No. Are there small risks? Yes. Might you need annual vaccines to keep up with variants? Yes. But so far there is no variant that exists that isn't vaccine-responsive. If you let COVID go rampant without vaccinating people, there's a much higher risk there will develop a vaccine-resistant variant, but we have a window now to slow down the spread and prevent that from happening. Vaccines work. If there's one thing I hope you take away from this, it's that you should go get vaccinated when you can.

4. Yes, not all people who get COVID die. If you're older or sicker you have a higher risk. BUT the variants are hospitalizing younger healthy people at a higher rate. You're not immune because you're 50 or 30 or even 15. And again, even if you survive COVID, you could pass it on to a friend or relative or contact and that person could be less fortunate than you and die. And to boot, not everyone who survives does well. Imagine surviving COVID but being so tired or short of breathe that you can't work, can't exercise, can't get up stairs. Imagine losing your sense of taste or smell permanently and never being able to enjoy food the same way. It's not all about whether you live or die, it's also about whether you're permanently or indefinitely incapacitated in some way by this.

Anyways, that's my spiel. We're all fed up of COVID. It sucks for everyone. Fastest way back to normal isn't to pretend it's not there, it's to get vaccinated and get your loved ones vaccinated. And while I'm here, it's courageous of you to post your thoughts knowing there'd be backlash over it. I'm not here to be angry over people's hesitancy to get vaccinated, but I also hope you're open to hearing why it's the best-case solution to what's out there. Feel free to PM me if you want.

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25 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

No absolutely not do nothing, I never said to do nothing. Right now so many of our friends and families are already being turned away from hospitals and urgent care units because of this. I am sure you are aware that the government has shutdown many hospitals, schools, jails, mental institutions over the last 20 or so years and those buildings are just sitting around empty and rotting. Why can't the government put them to use to house some of the covid patients while they recover? The government a while back implemented a PSW program for those on social services to help get them off of assistance and as a result flooded the industry so bad that too many people were without jobs. Some of those out of work PSW's could be hired to run these Covid recovery units. Of course some Doctors and Nurses would need to be on staff as well. I am just saying that there are many better options out there that would allow society to get up and running that the government is overlooking because of fear of doing the wrong things, but they keep trying things that clearly do not work. 

Explain how shutting down certain sections of a store but allowing the store to stay open slows down the virus. How about how you can't buy car parts to keep your car safe and on the road to travel between work and home but you can go get Pot and Beer, how does that slow down the virus? Every year people get the flu shot to prevent getting the flu, it is by choice, how is it now fair for my employer to say that I have to get the covid shot even if I do not want it fair to me? We will never be able to stop the virus completely, it will always be around much like the flu, does that mean that we should all have to isolate every 8-10 months for months at a time? IMO we should be looking at ways to relieve stress on hospitals like I suggested above while also allowing those who want to be vaccinated to be vaccinated. We should not be forcing anyone to do anything they do not wish to do ever. We should not be forcing lockdowns and fining people who go to parks or golfing or out to play hockey. Society needs to function as close to normal as possible otherwise the pandemic of opioid overdoses and alcohol related car accidents are going to continue to rise. As are many of the Drug and alcohol related crimes like B&E, auto theft and ***** that goes with them.

My survival of the fittest comment was a bit extreme, I am just so frustrated at the way the government is handling this. 

As i said above,,,,, i don't agree with everything about lockdowns. If businesses are taking precautions they should be allowed to do business even if it's at a reduced capacity. As far as i know,,, the vaccine is not forced on anybody and an employer can't make it a condition of employment.

I'm glad you clarified the comment about survival of the fittest because we're seeing that first hand in India where they can't even keep up with cremations. They can't even keep up with the reporting. They're saying 20 million cases and they suspect it's being under reported by as much as 10 times. That's a staggering figure and a wakeup call to countries who chose to let this virus run it's course through the population in the hope of herd immunity.  

My hope is that we soon get close to that 75% vaccination rate and start to open things back up again responsibly. My business has been greatly affected, because it involves working with kids directly, but i know i could never forgive myself if one of those kids died because of my indifferent attitude towards this virus. I've taken it serious since day one and so far so good.

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16 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Ok, like I said I wasn't trying to upset anyone. I just wanted to have my voice heard as well. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I will not post to this thread again as I understand that my view is offensive to others on here and I do not wish to further upset anyone, I also don't want anyone to think that I am trying to change the way they view the situation or that I don't understand that the virus is a serious concern to everyone. I know it is, I was just adding my perspective. 

Why do you think it's offensive? Your opinion is just as valid as anybody else's. We might not agree but if we don't debate then we miss an opportunity to educate ourselves. If you've been offended by my point of view then i guess i did a poor job of expressing myself and for that i apologize.

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My neighbours and very good friends are of Indian decent and have lived in Canada almost their entire lives but still have relatives in India. We were talking just recently and they were telling me stories about the horrors over there. Sick people are being turned away to die at home. Ambulances are lined up around the block at hospitals all hoping to get any treatment at all,,, many of them dying during the wait. Not only older being affected,,,,,,many younger are also dying because they can't even get oxygen to help them get past the worse of their infections. They cremate their dead over there for the most part, and they don't even have the supplies needed to keep up with the demand. 

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3 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

As i said above,,,,, i don't agree with everything about lockdowns. If businesses are taking precautions they should be allowed to do business even if it's at a reduced capacity. As far as i know,,, the vaccine is not forced on anybody and an employer can't make it a condition of employment.

I'm glad you clarified the comment about survival of the fittest because we're seeing that first hand in India where they can't even keep up with cremations. They can't even keep up with the reporting. They're saying 20 million cases and they suspect it's being under reported by as much as 10 times. That's a staggering figure and a wakeup call to countries who chose to let this virus run it's course through the population in the hope of herd immunity.  

My hope is that we soon get close to that 75% vaccination rate and start to open things back up again responsibly. My business has been greatly affected, because it involves working with kids directly, but i know i could never forgive myself if one of those kids died because of my indifferent attitude towards this virus. I've taken it serious since day one and so far so good.

I do understand what you are saying and appreciate you taking the time to discuss this civilly with me. I am not at all saying that measures shouldn't be in place or that we should open everything back up and ignore the virus, that would just be irresponsible. I am just feeling like every time the government implements new lockdowns or protocols they overlook the obvious solutions. For instance they have shut down Golf courses because they feel that too many people will congregate in the clubhouse. However they leave the beer stores and LCBO open. Now what do you think promotes more social gatherings Golfing outdoors or getting alcohol and pot and partying with some friends and family? If they were serious about the lockdown IMO they would need to shutdown the LCBO and Beer Stores and Pot Shops. Most people (myself included) follow the protocols put in place because it is the right thing to do. I have not heard whether or not I have to get a shot prior to being allowed back in the office but I imagine it will come because we are a multinational company with 180 employees in our office alone. I don't wish to make anyone else sick because I choose not to get the vaccine because that is not fair to them either, hence the reason I said I would probably put up a bit of a fight but eventually get the shot if it became a requirement. I will most likely end up getting the shot anyway as I have family that are in those high risk demographics but I do intend to wait a while simply because I feel like the vaccine was rushed out without too much data from testing. Sure they were able to do short term tests and we saw the results of some vaccines causing blood clots. No one really knows how the vaccines will affect us long term yet because there is no long term tests available. These are just some of my worries and frustrations, I don't want to cause others harm either and in fact because my wife works in a hotel we have already been exposed numerous times and have followed all isolation protocols as a result because we don't want to transmit anything to anyone else. 

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29 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Why do you think it's offensive? Your opinion is just as valid as anybody else's. We might not agree but if we don't debate then we miss an opportunity to educate ourselves. If you've been offended by my point of view then i guess i did a poor job of expressing myself and for that i apologize.

No you didn't offend me, I was just apologizing because I know how sensitive this issue is with many people. 

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Just now, campabee82 said:

No you didn't offend me, I was just apologizing because I know how sensitive this issue is with many people. 

Agreed,,,, it is a sensitive issue. I find when i'm discussing it with people that they don't have the whole story when they've formed an opinion. They don't ask questions and they don't look up facts. If we don't educate ourselves with debate and discussion then it leads to a lot of misconceptions. I had many members of my own family hesitant about vaccines but we've talked about it among ourselves and tried to sort through facts and falsehoods. Just about my entire family are now choosing to vaccinate. Fortunately we have a doctor in the family who's gone out of her way to make sure we all have the facts. I still have a brother who says he won't, along with a daughter but we're still hoping they have a change of heart.

The best way to approach this is as you've said,,, don't do it for yourself,, do it for others among your family and friends. It's a great attitude to have. I didn't get my shot for my sake as i pretty much have one of those " when it's your time it's your time" attitudes, but it would kill me if a loved one got it from me and had long lasting effects or worse,,, died.

Happy to hear your leaning towards getting yours. Hopefully our discussion has helped ease your mind.

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