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23 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I'm in the dump him camp but he is capable of making the odd decent transaction. There's just too many areas where he gets a fail to overcome the occasional good move.

Honestly as much as I dont like him, trades have really not been a problem. For the most part he's made good deals.  His biggest problem are the trades he hasnt made.  You want to trade Subban for Weber, an entirely different type of RHD? Sure.  But we still have gaping holes at centre (and LD with Markov a question mark) but he didnt address those.  The trades he actually made I think are either (almost all) good, or great to be honest. 

 

21 minutes ago, 26NCounting said:

MB is out to lunch, the FA for goalies is really deep this year, could have had a backup much cheaper than this. 

First off, its  3rd rounder. Not exactly high cost.   If you're talking "cheaper" in terms of salary, who exactly do you think is as good (or better) than Allen in the UFA market that will sign for 1 year?   Holtby is 30, wants term and wants to be a starter.  Lehner is 28, wants term and wants to be a starter. Markstrom is 30, wants term and wants to be a starter. Crawford and Khudobin are both older (34/35) and while they may not be looking for jobs as starters, they both have said they want at least 2 year deals. 

Id rather have Allen for 1 year (when Primeau my be ready) than any of those other guys for 2-3 years. If Primeau isnt ready then you sign another guy for 1 year. This team has a history of railroading rookies behind vets, the less often they get into that situation, the better. 

 

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Just to repeat myself here,,,,,,,, the difference between what we paid our goaltending duo last year to what our cost will be this year is just under 3 mill. I for one would have gladly paid some of that unused cap room to have Allan on the bench rather than either Kinkaid or CL backing up Price. Is it an overpaid duo??? No doubt, but let's face facts,,,, we might as well just depended on the emergency replacement then paying one of those guys.

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Just now, H_T_L said:

Just to repeat myself here,,,,,,,, the difference between what we paid our goaltending duo last year to what our cost will be this year is just under 3 mill. I for one would have gladly paid some of that unused cap room to have Allan on the bench rather than either Kinkaid or CL backing up Price. Is it an overpaid duo??? No doubt, but let's face facts,,,, we might as well just depended on the emergency replacement then paying one of those guys.

Yup. And as i mentioned above, there's basically no goalie on the UFA market that provides the same quality as Jake Allen that is not looking for term. This is huge.

Goor proactive move (for once) by bergevin. 

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1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

I would argue that backup goaltender was a desperate need for us. Doesn't solve all our problems but we all knew that position had to be dealt with in the off season. One less problem to deal with IMO.

He's the 18th highest paid goalie in the league currently (Allen that is).

You don't throw that kind of money at somebody to be a backup, even for 1 year.    Unless this is a step in another move it was yet another absolutely terrible trade by Bergevin.   Allen's cap hit is 4.35 million ... most teams are spending 2-3 on a backup.      Sure we can argue we still have 14m in cap ... to sign 2 FWs and a D.     That would get eaten up fast if we're looking for elite talent.

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10 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yup. And as i mentioned above, there's basically no goalie on the UFA market that provides the same quality as Jake Allen that is not looking for term. This is huge.

Good proactive move (for once) by bergevin. 

For sure, and hopefully, this year, Bergevin spends to the cap and gets the players we need.  Maybe he is finally learning, but getting a quality goalie on his terms instead of waiting for free agency and hoping the goalie he wants will come here?  Now, he can concentrate on his next move. I still like this trade. Win-Win for both teams.

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Allen is a career .913 goaltender. Over the past 3 seasons, he ranks 24th among 53 goalies with at least 3000 minutes played in save percentage at 5v5. He ranks 25th at high-danger save percentage, while facing the 4th-lowest high-danger chances among goalies. His teammate Jordan Binnington ranks 5th and 3rd respectively in those categories and faced the 9th-lowest high-danger chances against. The bottom line is that Jake Allen was a slightly-above-average goalie playing for a very strong defensive team. It remains to be seen if that will translate to having a worse defence in front of him here. I think he'll do a decent job, likely much better than any of the guys we've had here backing up Carey recently. And the contract doesn't hurt us in the long run. Like I said, the only thing I'm disappointed in is MB overpaying in a trade where he's helping the other team dump salary. Maybe Stl could have found another home for Allen, but they were also rumored to have been shopping him last year and he wasn't moved. I don't think too many teams would have paid him 4M+ as a back-up and those teams looking for starters might not have been too enamored to use him in that role and/or to get an expiring UFA at a time when the season actually happening is in doubt. If Stl doesn't dump salary, they possibly can't afford to keep Pietrangelo, so this was a team where you could have forced their hand a bit more. I'm not saying we should have expected a big return, but I think a 3rd rounder was over-payment considering the contract we're taking on, the fact Stl clearly wasn't going to play him much, and the fact they are in dire need of cap space to re-sign one of their best players. They needed to trade Allen much more than we needed to acquire him (as in we could have looked at other options and they probably had very few if any other options).

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Also, and it has happened before, and on many teams.  If Price were to get hurt?  I would not have a problem with Jake Allen carrying this team until Price returned.  Price would not have to be rushed, which has happened before.  So definitely peace of mind. Now for the next move.  Could be more complicated. LD & Scoring Winger or Power Forward. Considering Bergevin failed at addressing the roster for 2 years, I'm hoping this is the year that he does, and spends to the cap if necessary.

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2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Allen is a career .913 goaltender. Over the past 3 seasons, he ranks 24th among 53 goalies with at least 3000 minutes played in save percentage at 5v5. He ranks 25th at high-danger save percentage, while facing the 4th-lowest high-danger chances among goalies. His teammate Jordan Binnington ranks 5th and 3rd respectively in those categories and faced the 9th-lowest high-danger chances against. The bottom line is that Jake Allen was a slightly-above-average goalie playing for a very strong defensive team. It remains to be seen if that will translate to having a worse defence in front of him here. I think he'll do a decent job, likely much better than any of the guys we've had here backing up Carey recently. And the contract doesn't hurt us in the long run. Like I said, the only thing I'm disappointed in is MB overpaying in a trade where he's helping the other team dump salary. Maybe Stl could have found another home for Allen, but they were also rumored to have been shopping him last year and he wasn't moved. I don't think too many teams would have paid him 4M+ as a back-up and those teams looking for starters might not have been too enamored to use him in that role and/or to get an expiring UFA at a time when the season actually happening is in doubt. If Stl doesn't dump salary, they possibly can't afford to keep Pietrangelo, so this was a team where you could have forced their hand a bit more. I'm not saying we should have expected a big return, but I think a 3rd rounder was over-payment considering the contract we're taking on, the fact Stl clearly wasn't going to play him much, and the fact they are in dire need of cap space to re-sign one of their best players. They needed to trade Allen much more than we needed to acquire him (as in we could have looked at other options and they probably had very few if any other options).

If you listen to all the Leaf fans, we win this trade if St. Louis does in fact sign Pietrangelo. Plus, for one year, it's what we needed. 

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18 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

He's the 18th highest paid goalie in the league currently (Allen that is).

You don't throw that kind of money at somebody to be a backup, even for 1 year.    Unless this is a step in another move it was yet another absolutely terrible trade by Bergevin.   Allen's cap hit is 4.35 million ... most teams are spending 2-3 on a backup.      Sure we can argue we still have 14m in cap ... to sign 2 FWs and a D.     That would get eaten up fast if we're looking for elite talent.

but you're missing the point that we DON'T have money to spend on free agency or in trades, this cap space is for this year only and we are going to be much closer to the cap next year just by re-signing our own guys

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I stand by my original post. Allen is a good goaltender but this is a ton of money to throw at a backup, even more so considering we don't even know what next season is going to look like and for how many games we'll actually need him. I don't care much about Washington's third rounder we've lost in the deal but I do care about the cap space and I think we could have used the money in a much better way. Yes, acquiring a backup was a need, but a LHD and a scoring winger were much bigger needs. I don't see the point in overpaying (in Cap money) to fill hole #3 before adressing holes #2 and #1 on the priority list.

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Two possibilities for Allen for next year, assuming the season gets played:

1. He plays poorly, in which case we likely aren't re-signing him.

2. He plays well, in which case someone might want to sign him as a starter elsewhere.

 

I'd be surprised if there's a scenario where Allen re-signs here past next season at a salary below 3M, which is what a back-up should be getting paid.

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2 minutes ago, habsisme said:

but you're missing the point that we DON'T have money to spend on free agency or in trades, this cap space is for this year only and we are going to be much closer to the cap next year just by re-signing our own guys

Without allen we would have 18.35m in cap for 20/21 to resign Domi, Mete and Oulette  ... check cap friendly.       With Allen it's 14m, with say 2.5m backup its 15.85 ... Domi is likely traded, and Mete/Oulette are say 2m a piece.   So that leaves us 10m for whoever we trade for to fill a top 6 winger role and top LHD role instead of the 12-13m we'd have with a reasonable backup ... and do we need one?  Fleury might have filled in nicely getting 25-30 games on an ELC

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11 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Allen is a career .913 goaltender. Over the past 3 seasons, he ranks 24th among 53 goalies with at least 3000 minutes played in save percentage at 5v5. He ranks 25th at high-danger save percentage, while facing the 4th-lowest high-danger chances among goalies. His teammate Jordan Binnington ranks 5th and 3rd respectively in those categories and faced the 9th-lowest high-danger chances against. The bottom line is that Jake Allen was a slightly-above-average goalie playing for a very strong defensive team. It remains to be seen if that will translate to having a worse defence in front of him here. I think he'll do a decent job, likely much better than any of the guys we've had here backing up Carey recently. And the contract doesn't hurt us in the long run. Like I said, the only thing I'm disappointed in is MB overpaying in a trade where he's helping the other team dump salary. Maybe Stl could have found another home for Allen, but they were also rumored to have been shopping him last year and he wasn't moved. I don't think too many teams would have paid him 4M+ as a back-up and those teams looking for starters might not have been too enamored to use him in that role and/or to get an expiring UFA at a time when the season actually happening is in doubt. If Stl doesn't dump salary, they possibly can't afford to keep Pietrangelo, so this was a team where you could have forced their hand a bit more. I'm not saying we should have expected a big return, but I think a 3rd rounder was over-payment considering the contract we're taking on, the fact Stl clearly wasn't going to play him much, and the fact they are in dire need of cap space to re-sign one of their best players. They needed to trade Allen much more than we needed to acquire him (as in we could have looked at other options and they probably had very few if any other options).

And thats fair. I agree that St. Louis almost certainly had less options to trade him than we had to sign someone else but based on the quality of the player I have a hard time believing we could have gotten anyone in UFA that would have signed for 1 year. So waiting would have been a risk for MB too.   In the end, i can live with the deal the way it was.

I do wonder how much playing all this time in front of St. Louis has helped his numbers.  Hopefully he doesnt regress. 

One thing to note: the NHL is pushing hard for a full season starting in december.  That would mean a ton of back to backs. Having Allen makes me feel more comfortable about that.   

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1 minute ago, ChiLla said:

I stand by my original post. Allen is a good goaltender but this is a ton of money to throw at a backup, even more so considering we don't even know what next season is going to look like and for how many games we'll actually need him. I don't care much about Washington's third rounder we've lost in the deal but I do care about the cap space and I think we could have used the money in a much better way. Yes, acquiring a backup was a need, but a LHD and a scoring winger were much bigger needs. I don't see the point in overpaying (in Cap money) to fill hole #3 before adressing holes #2 and #1 on the priority list.

I sort of agree and sort of disagree with you. If I answer the following questions...

1. Is Allen a good goalie and a strong back-up option? Yes.

2. Is the 3rd rounder a big deal in terms of capital to pay in a trade? No.

I think we agree on those points. Where I might differ from you...

1. I don't think the actual cap hit is the huge concern. We have a decent amount of cap space still to play with and Allen's contract will be done before we need to look at our big summer of re-signing players. My issue is not so much with cap hit as it is with not taking advantage of St. Louis needing to dump that cap hit in a big way.

2. I think scoring winger and especially top-pairing LHD are big holes to fill and likely should be guys you pay bigger money to. But this team could trade Domi to address one of those holes and so probably still has 10-14M to be able to fill them. I don't think shortage of cap space will be the issue there. And signing a strong back-up not only improves your back-up starts quality, it also likely improves the quality of play you get from Carey, which is huge given how much we rely on him. So I could see this move giving us as many added wins next year as if we had added a Laine or Dumba, for example. It's a good move on paper, I just don't like that we let Stl off the hook on the deal and I truly think we could have gotten something else back from them as thank you for giving them the space to resign Pietrangelo or at the very least given up lesser return (a 6th rounder? a B level prospect?).

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

Umm 15m tied up in goalies?   This is a dumb move and does nothing to address our real needs

This is an excellent move - we still have tons of cap room, and plenty of high draft choices.  Jake Allen will provide some quality rest and lighten some of Carey's workload. Backup goalie was a real need but perhaps not up there with Scoring or a quality LHD - Kinkaid failed and this gives one more year for Primeau to develop rather than be rushed. Charlie Lindgren  will likely backup or vice-versa with Primeau in Laval. McNiven is an RFA - TBD on his future.

 

1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

I look at it as an increase of roughly 3 mill in cap space for a guy that should actually get us some points rather then a guy like Kinkaid who pretty much conceded the points to the opposition. If the guy was able to win half his starts and actually provide some rest for Price, our season stats likely wouldn't have been so poor. How many B2B's did Price have to play because we couldn't risk playing the backup? 

Exactly

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

And thats fair. I agree that St. Louis almost certainly had less options to trade him than we had to sign someone else but based on the quality of the player I have a hard time believing we could have gotten anyone in UFA that would have signed for 1 year. So waiting would have been a risk for MB too.   In the end, i can live with the deal the way it was.

I do wonder how much playing all this time in front of St. Louis has helped his numbers.  Hopefully he doesnt regress. 

One thing to note: the NHL is pushing hard for a full season starting in december.  That would mean a ton of back to backs. Having Allen makes me feel more comfortable about that.   

Two comments on this:

 

1. With the ED next off-season and the fact we don't currently have anyone other than Price signed to be able to expose, we actually will need to have a back-up signed for 2021-22 before the ED happens. So it should have been an advantage to us to have a guy signed at a reasonable cap hit for two years as opposed to a big cap hit for one. Like I said, if Allen plays lights out, he'll earn another payday and someone will pay him 4-6M to be their starter in 2021, and we won't be able to afford keeping him as a back-up. The guy's going to be 31 next season, he's not going to play for us one year at a time at 2-3M a season if he can sign a 4y-year deal for 5M elsewhere. And if he really doesn't fit in here, we won't re-sign him anyways. So regardless, we're going to have to have someone signed on paper at the end of next season who has NHL experience to meet the ED requirements.

2. We don't know what next year will look like. Many players may opt out if there's a significant COVID risk and no bubble next year. The NHLPA may bargain like the MLBPA did and force a shortened season. I could easily see the PA negotiating something like a 48-game season, in which case there wouldn't be as many back to backs after all. I think it's still a lot of unknowns. And like I said, also a possibility the season just goes down the drains quickly if there's no bubble and we never see Allen in a Habs uniform again. It's a risk with an impending UFA next year.

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9 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Without allen we would have 18.35m in cap for 20/21 to resign Domi, Mete and Oulette  ... check cap friendly.       With Allen it's 14m, with say 2.5m backup its 15.85 ... Domi is likely traded, and Mete/Oulette are say 2m a piece.   So that leaves us 10m for whoever we trade for to fill a top 6 winger role and top LHD role instead of the 12-13m we'd have with a reasonable backup ... and do we need one?  Fleury might have filled in nicely getting 25-30 games on an ELC

but that cap space is just for this year. We have to re-sign Gallagher, Tatar, Danault, Armia, Petry, Kotkaniemi. I don't think we will even be able to keep everyone. We only have cap space for one year deals

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3 minutes ago, habsisme said:

but that cap space is just for this year. We have to re-sign Gallagher, Tatar, Danault, Armia, Petry, Kotkaniemi. I don't think we will even be able to keep everyone. We only have cap space for one year deals

The space we use on Allan is only for this year. Doesn't affect the signings we need to make next year.

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Lots of questions for this coming season. Not even a certainty that any games get played at all. Regardless,,,, Allan is off the books for the following season so it's only Molson's money that's at stake. We could theoretically fill all our needs this off season and not see any of it come to fruition. Short term expiring deals are probably the way to go. GM's need to be thinking about future core player deals. If we're trading to fill those holes it better be a short term deal or somebody we can fit in looking long term youth wise.

I'm guessing Kovy will be MB's scoring target on a 1 year deal and that Domi or Dano gets used to pick up that LD  Not really expecting much more from this GM other then some 4th line depth and 3rd pairing D signings.as per the usual off season.

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1 minute ago, H_T_L said:

I'm guessing Kovy will be MB's scoring target on a 1 year deal and that Domi or Dano gets used to pick up that LD  Not really expecting much more from this GM other then some 4th line depth and 3rd pairing D signings.as per the usual off season.

Honestly, if he does that much, im satisfied.  Do we need an elite talent on the wing? Yes. But if MB can FINALLY address our LD hole properly, I'll probably be satisfied.  Its not enough, but thats where my expectations are at.  I fully expect Chairot and Kulak to be our top 2 LHD come game one 2020-21.  Hope im wrong. 

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28 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I sort of agree and sort of disagree with you. If I answer the following questions...

1. Is Allen a good goalie and a strong back-up option? Yes.

2. Is the 3rd rounder a big deal in terms of capital to pay in a trade? No.

I think we agree on those points. Where I might differ from you...

1. I don't think the actual cap hit is the huge concern. We have a decent amount of cap space still to play with and Allen's contract will be done before we need to look at our big summer of re-signing players. My issue is not so much with cap hit as it is with not taking advantage of St. Louis needing to dump that cap hit in a big way.

2. I think scoring winger and especially top-pairing LHD are big holes to fill and likely should be guys you pay bigger money to. But this team could trade Domi to address one of those holes and so probably still has 10-14M to be able to fill them. I don't think shortage of cap space will be the issue there. And signing a strong back-up not only improves your back-up starts quality, it also likely improves the quality of play you get from Carey, which is huge given how much we rely on him. So I could see this move giving us as many added wins next year as if we had added a Laine or Dumba, for example. It's a good move on paper, I just don't like that we let Stl off the hook on the deal and I truly think we could have gotten something else back from them as thank you for giving them the space to resign Pietrangelo or at the very least given up lesser return (a 6th rounder? a B level prospect?).

And that's fine, you're absolutely right that the Cap hit won't be be a conern going forward, but I was thinking more about this offseason. I think it's relatively safe to assume that there will be several teams with cap issues and that's something I would have tried to exploit as a GM. The Blues were certainly one of those teams and essentially we did them a favor by taking on Allen's contract and handed them a third rounder as a bonus, so I don't really see us winning this trade. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have Allen and Price/Allen is probably one of the best goalie tandems in the league right now, but it's a huge amount of money to spend on the goalie position, which isn't as important as it used to be. I just think there are smarter ways to spend the unused cap money we've had for several years now and e.g. would have liked us to acquire additional assets in the process. Additionally, we'll still need to sign a goalie to protect in the upcoming expansion draft, and I doubt that guy will be Allen. So that's another thing MB will have to take care of, on top of all the UFAs and RFAs in 2021. Given the special circumstances, we also don't know what the UFA market is going to look like this year and what kind of money a guy like e.g. Taylor Hall will actually be able to command, so I'm really not sure this is the right move at this point. This could really be a year where going big could make a lot of sense for us.

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1 minute ago, maas_art said:

Honestly, if he does that much, im satisfied.  Do we need an elite talent on the wing? Yes. But if MB can FINALLY address our LD hole properly, I'll probably be satisfied.  Its not enough, but thats where my expectations are at.  I fully expect Chairot and Kulak to be our top 2 LHD come game one 2020-21.  Hope im wrong. 

I think he'll fill the hole with another body. No guarantee it will be a top 2 guy,,,, or top 4 for that matter.:rolleyes: 

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3 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

And that's fine, you're absolutely right that the Cap hit won't be be a big conern going forward, but I was thinking more about this offseason. I think it's relatively safe to assume that there will be several teams with cap issues and that's something I would have tried to exploit as a GM. The Blues were certainly one of those teams and essentially we did them a favor by taking on Allen's contract and handed them a third rounder as a bonus, so I don't really see us winning this trade. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have Allen and Price/Allen is probably one of the best goalie tandems in the league right now, but it's a huge amount of money to spend on the goalie position, which isn't as important as it used to be. I just think there are smarter ways to spend the unused cap money we've had for several years now and e.g. would have liked us to acquire additional assets in the process. Additionally, we'll still need to sign a goalie to protect in the upcoming expansion draft, and I doubt that guy will be Allen. So that's another thing MB will have to take care of, on top of all the UFAs and RFAs in 2021. Given the special circumstances, we also don't know what the UFA market is going to look like this year and what kind of money a guy like e.g. Taylor Hall will actually be able to command, so I'm really not sure this is the right move at this point. This could really be a year where going big could make a lot of sense for us.

MB has carried extra cap space the last couple seasons and has not been able to exploit it. I have little confidence he can do so now. 

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12 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I think he'll fill the hole with another body. No guarantee it will be a top 2 guy,,,, or top 4 for that matter.:rolleyes: 

Yup. Like Chairot, Ouellet and Alzner. Those were our top LHD signings each year since Markov left. 

Hole? What hole? 

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15 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

MB has carried extra cap space the last couple seasons and has not been able to exploit it. I have little confidence he can do so now. 

True enough, you're probably right. My expectations for MB are still too high I guess :lol:

 

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