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Joel Edmundson


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16 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I agree with you. It's not baffling for Bergevin, it's just baffling in terms of how you should be building a team in today's NHL. Locking in 3rd-pairing D men long-term is a bad move in a cap world and believing big guys who can't move the puck well are a solution for your top 4 is an antiquated notion.

The only thing that's truly baffling is how to satisfy a Habs fan.  If you're the girlfriend of a Habs fan, you're probably going to want to bring a top pairing, puck moving defense man to bed with you.  Even then, it's not guaranteed they'll be happy.

Edmundson is not top pairing for sure.  But he's not a Beer League guy either and this is the part that kills me:  When MTL drafted Cole Caufield 15th ova, Habs fans cried, we need more size.  So MTL goes and gets more size on the blueline, who can contribute offensively, Block shots, hit, kill penalties and everyone says: Oh he's too big, too slow, etc.

BTW.  Jeff Petry was 28 years old when Bergevin acquired him at the deadline from EDM.  In his 295 career games as an Oiler he put up 17 career goals.  In 385 career games with MTL he's posted 52 career goals, 3 times his career total with EDM.  It's not about where you start,  it's about where you end up.  I'm probably the only Habs fan right now who is willing to give both Edmundson and Bergevin the benefit of the doubt.

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12 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

The only thing that's truly baffling is how to satisfy a Habs fan.  If you're the girlfriend of a Habs fan, you're probably going to want to bring a top pairing, puck moving defense man to bed with you.  Even then, it's not guaranteed they'll be happy.

Edmundson is not top pairing for sure.  But he's not a Beer League guy either and this is the part that kills me:  When MTL drafted Cole Caufield 15th ova, Habs fans cried, we need more size.  So MTL goes and gets more size on the blueline, who can contribute offensively, Block shots, hit, kill penalties and everyone says: Oh he's too big, too slow, etc.

BTW.  Jeff Petry was 28 years old when Bergevin acquired him at the deadline from EDM.  In his 295 career games as an Oiler he put up 17 career goals.  In 385 career games with MTL he's posted 52 career goals, 3 times his career total with EDM.  It's not about where you start,  it's about where you end up.  I'm probably the only Habs fan right now who is willing to give both Edmundson and Bergevin the benefit of the doubt.

I am with you. A lot of analyst , I've heard on XM hockey channel have stated it's a good move at a good price. A lot have commented about how a player is utilized within the team they came from. The advanced stats I'm not sold on because if the player is used killing penalties and as shutdown not an offensive role it shows differently. I think he will definitely help because if he can log additional PK minutes and tougher match ups, that actually frees up guys like Petry for more offensive. It can help reduce the wear on Weber also. I also like additional size on the blue line. 

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59 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

The only thing that's truly baffling is how to satisfy a Habs fan.  If you're the girlfriend of a Habs fan, you're probably going to want to bring a top pairing, puck moving defense man to bed with you.  Even then, it's not guaranteed they'll be happy.

OK you lost me with that analogy, but i dont want further explanation. :4224:

59 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

Edmundson is not top pairing for sure.  But he's not a Beer League guy either and this is the part that kills me:  When MTL drafted Cole Caufield 15th ova, Habs fans cried, we need more size.  So MTL goes and gets more size on the blueline, who can contribute offensively, Block shots, hit, kill penalties and everyone says: Oh he's too big, too slow, etc.

But you cant mix two players.  I dont think the fans (i wasnt one of them) were calling for more size in general -  they wanted a player like caufield with more size... who, of course, wouldnt have been available at 15ova. 

 

1 hour ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

BTW.  Jeff Petry was 28 years old when Bergevin acquired him at the deadline from EDM.  In his 295 career games as an Oiler he put up 17 career goals.  In 385 career games with MTL he's posted 52 career goals, 3 times his career total with EDM.  It's not about where you start,  it's about where you end up.  I'm probably the only Habs fan right now who is willing to give both Edmundson and Bergevin the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely!  But Jeff Petry also had a much higher skillset than Joel Edmundson.  He was clearly a skilled player, he just hadnt put it all together yet.  Is it possible Edmundson blossoms here? Sure. Is it as likely as when we got Petry? Not really.  Doesnt mean he wont be good, but they clearly have (and had)  pretty different ceilings. The other thing is that most players do not have their best years in their 30s. Jeff's late career blossoming is not the norm. 

 

45 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

I am with you. A lot of analyst , I've heard on XM hockey channel have stated it's a good move at a good price. A lot have commented about how a player is utilized within the team they came from. The advanced stats I'm not sold on because if the player is used killing penalties and as shutdown not an offensive role it shows differently. I think he will definitely help because if he can log additional PK minutes and tougher match ups, that actually frees up guys like Petry for more offensive. It can help reduce the wear on Weber also. I also like additional size on the blue line. 

I cant speak for everyone but to me this is a typical MB move: In a vacuum, 100% ok.

But not really relevant to our team needs.  I understand why he did it (he wanted our defense to be bigger and 'harder to play against') but I think adding more skill would have accomplished that better.  Its not a knock on Joel whom I am sure is a very competent #4-6 dman. Its also not entirely a knock on bergevin.  Once again he made a fair deal (5th round pick and we were able to sign a pending UFA to a price lower than he would have likely gotten on the open market).  The knock is on the lack of a plan. I just dont see how Edmundson makes our roster better.   Even if I accept he's marginally better than say Kulak or Mete (not sure i do) thats still not what we need. We need a guy who is unequivocally the best LHD in our system. 

 

Anyway, its all good to debate, especially when the motive for all of us the same:  having a great team that can compete for a cup. 

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1 hour ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

The only thing that's truly baffling is how to satisfy a Habs fan.  If you're the girlfriend of a Habs fan, you're probably going to want to bring a top pairing, puck moving defense man to bed with you.  Even then, it's not guaranteed they'll be happy.

Edmundson is not top pairing for sure.  But he's not a Beer League guy either and this is the part that kills me:  When MTL drafted Cole Caufield 15th ova, Habs fans cried, we need more size.  So MTL goes and gets more size on the blueline, who can contribute offensively, Block shots, hit, kill penalties and everyone says: Oh he's too big, too slow, etc.

BTW.  Jeff Petry was 28 years old when Bergevin acquired him at the deadline from EDM.  In his 295 career games as an Oiler he put up 17 career goals.  In 385 career games with MTL he's posted 52 career goals, 3 times his career total with EDM.  It's not about where you start,  it's about where you end up.  I'm probably the only Habs fan right now who is willing to give both Edmundson and Bergevin the benefit of the doubt.

Jeff Petry was 27 when he was traded here, same age as Edmundson now. The difference though was staggering. Petry was a player that had great advanced stats numbers relative to his teammates. He was a good player playing in a bad system. Edmundson is the exact opposite. He has decent advanced stats in absolute terms but they're bad relative to his teammates. He's a mediocre player who's numbers have been propped up by playing in two strong systems. The prediction from most analysts based on advanced stats was that Petry would flourish in Montreal (which he did) and that Edmundson will be no better than a 3rd pairing guy potentially being asked to play above his head in the top 4. One analyst used advanced metrics to apply how players contribute to wins above a replacement level player and concluded that Edmundson would actually cost us wins rather than contributing to them. In other words, an NHL-average replacement player would be better.

As I've said, I'm fine with Edmundson, I'm fine with Chiarot, I'm fine with Mete... but they're all 3rd-pairing LHD. We don't need all of them and we don't want them playing in our top 4.

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

As I've said, I'm fine with Edmundson, I'm fine with Chiarot, I'm fine with Mete... but they're all 3rd-pairing LHD. We don't need all of them and we don't want them playing in our top 4.

Yep they're all good, serviceable guys who can surely fill in as #4 for stretches but that's likely where it all ends. If that's our depth on the left side, MB has yet again failed to adress one (if not the) biggest need our team has. We'll heavily rely on Petry and Weber in all situations, which clearly isn't ideal given their age.

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

I cant speak for everyone but to me this is a typical MB move: In a vacuum, 100% ok.

But not really relevant to our team needs.  I understand why he did it (he wanted our defense to be bigger and 'harder to play against') but I think adding more skill would have accomplished that better.  Its not a knock on Joel whom I am sure is a very competent #4-6 dman. Its also not entirely a knock on bergevin.  Once again he made a fair deal (5th round pick and we were able to sign a pending UFA to a price lower than he would have likely gotten on the open market).  The knock is on the lack of a plan. I just dont see how Edmundson makes our roster better.   Even if I accept he's marginally better than say Kulak or Mete (not sure i do) thats still not what we need. We need a guy who is unequivocally the best LHD in our system.

No doubt, the deal is fine, the contract is too. I also get MB's reasoning and it's important to put Carey in a position to succeed, protecting him is important as he's still the only legitimately elite player we have. Looking at the current roster though, that move isn't going to change all that much IMO. For the umpteenth time, we're going to be a bubble team that'll go through plenty of hot and cold stretches because we're clearly lacking talent. Maybe Kovalchuk comes back, maybe not. I still don't see a cup contender in Bergevin's... I don't even know anymore... eigth year at the helm? Trying to somehow make the playoffs because there's a chance anything can happen once you're in is a loser's mentality and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing that line.

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  I just don't have a problem with this signing .....I don't like the alternative of paying somebody on D for Krug type money on the open market , eat up the cap and who will then  take you out of any further Free Agency discussions on forwards ......St Louis thought he was good enough to sign him to two 1 yr  $3 mill contracts ...then Carolina thought he was good enough for 1 year @ $3.1  mill ...this seems to be the area and price range where Edmundson sits ...not elite but the kind of guy you want on your team and will pay decent money for but not a ton  . . . I'm not surprised he signed to give his career some stability  and maybe he saw a chance to play with Price and Weber as positives ... he's still relatively young...let's see what he brings to the team 

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I’m undecided on how I feel about Edmundson. On one hand he’s no Krug, he’s not the #1 LD that we need. On the other, he might be an upgrade on Chiarot, who basically was our #1 LD all year... Or maybe he’s not... 

Deffensemenn do take longer to develop, it’s not uncommon for them to reach full potential in their late 20’s. That said, given his playing experience, he may already be there. 
At the very least I’d say we’re no worse off, if not incrementally better. And I suppose better is still better, even if it’s just by a little. It is frustratingly underwhelming, but it does make the possibility of moving one of Mete, Kulak or Chiarot, perhaps for some scoring help. (For example, Mete to VAN for Virtanen). Our defence, as unhelpful on the score sheet as it was against Philadelphia, was fairly effective at shutting down their top scorers. So as long as we can find a way to increase our goals scored, I’m not to concerned if it comes from our back end or our forwards.

Ive had my doubts regarding our chances of signing Krug, but... The longer he goes without re-signing with Boston, the more likely it is that he signs elsewhere. But it is just as likely he uses us in the same way many UFA’s use us (and the Leafs) as a negotiation tactic to drive up their price. But whether it’s Krug or some other LD, if we can manage to wiggle someone that is at least a little more clearly an upgrade on Chiarot loose from another team, via trade or FA, it could leave us with a very solid D lineup.

who knows, but for now I’ll try and wait patiently to see how it all unfolds. The off-season is still young...

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47 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

I’m undecided on how I feel about Edmundson. On one hand he’s no Krug, he’s not the #1 LD that we need. On the other, he might be an upgrade on Chiarot, who basically was our #1 LD all year... Or maybe he’s not... 

Deffensemenn do take longer to develop, it’s not uncommon for them to reach full potential in their late 20’s. That said, given his playing experience, he may already be there. 
At the very least I’d say we’re no worse off, if not incrementally better. And I suppose better is still better, even if it’s just by a little. It is frustratingly underwhelming, but it does make the possibility of moving one of Mete, Kulak or Chiarot, perhaps for some scoring help. (For example, Mete to VAN for Virtanen). Our defence, as unhelpful on the score sheet as it was against Philadelphia, was fairly effective at shutting down their top scorers. So as long as we can find a way to increase our goals scored, I’m not to concerned if it comes from our back end or our forwards.

Ive had my doubts regarding our chances of signing Krug, but... The longer he goes without re-signing with Boston, the more likely it is that he signs elsewhere. But it is just as likely he uses us in the same way many UFA’s use us (and the Leafs) as a negotiation tactic to drive up their price. But whether it’s Krug or some other LD, if we can manage to wiggle someone that is at least a little more clearly an upgrade on Chiarot loose from another team, via trade or FA, it could leave us with a very solid D lineup.

who knows, but for now I’ll try and wait patiently to see how it all unfolds. The off-season is still young...

This is a great post.  I think the thing - like many of MB's moves - is really not: How do we feel about this trade, but: what now?  Will he follow this up?  Did we need Edmundson because we already have plans to move Mete or Kulak as part of an existing deal?

Apparently, one of the Montreal analists (wasnt Engels but my old brain is failing me) said that the team was positively giddy with Romanov in the practices. Like they think he's not only NHL ready but probably top 4.  Seems like a very risky move but i guess if you're just so sure...  

Anyway, im prepared to wait & see what MB does.  So far he's made two so-so moves, but in and of themselves they arent missteps. Assuming he does more (and i think he will) then its still possible he ends up with a positive off-season. 

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27 minutes ago, maas_art said:

This is a great post.  I think the thing - like many of MB's moves - is really not: How do we feel about this trade, but: what now?  Will he follow this up?  Did we need Edmundson because we already have plans to move Mete or Kulak as part of an existing deal?

Apparently, one of the Montreal analists (wasnt Engels but my old brain is failing me) said that the team was positively giddy with Romanov in the practices. Like they think he's not only NHL ready but probably top 4.  Seems like a very risky move but i guess if you're just so sure...  

Anyway, im prepared to wait & see what MB does.  So far he's made two so-so moves, but in and of themselves they arent missteps. Assuming he does more (and i think he will) then its still possible he ends up with a positive off-season. 

But clearly MB hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when constructing his D corps. We've been through this before. We all said to ourselves, Montreal can't really believe Karl Alzner was going to be their prize signing as a UFA, and yet he was the first guy they lined up to grab when free agency opened. Most analytics pundits predicted correctly that Alzner was washed up and not going to be successful, despite the fact Alzner did his first interviews and told the media MB had promised him he would play in the top 4. We all wondered last year if Chiarot was really going to be Bergevin's key addition on D or if he was just a depth signing as a prelude to another move for a real top 4 defenceman. In the end, Bergevin just sat on Chiarot. We wondered what Bergevin saw in Schlemko and Murray and Drewiske. We wondered how he thought Streit was really going to replace Andrei Markov or how he could let Beaulieu and Markov walk in the same off-season without a plan to replace them. We wondered what alternative MB was so confident in that he felt he could trade his one strong LHD prospect in Sergachev.

I talked last year about how MB's focus for an offer sheet would have, in my opinion, been better had it been Zach Werenski. I wrote countless posts about how our biggest weakness was LHD and how Werenski fit the criteria for everything the Habs were missing, moreso than Aho. A young but established top-pairing LHD who brings offensive upside and can play big minutes and both special teams. It's not to say we would have gotten him, but he signed a contract for value well under what we could have afforded to pay him, so if you're going to offersheet Aho, consideration for Werenski would have made more sense.

It is still clear as day that we need a top pairing LHD. Edmundson doesn't address that need, just as Chiarot did not, just as Alzner was not. Maybe Romanov is part of that solution, but that's a big gamble to take on a guy who's never played a season on a North American rink and if Romanov is your supposed answer to your top-pairing LHD problem, then who are your 2nd and 3rd pairing guys? I'd still have Kulak as the next-best guy and the best partner for Petry, and he's slightly younger and being paid less (and on a shorter deal) than Chiarot or Edmundson. So why have both of those latter two guys if you have a younger, better, cheaper option? Your 3rd pairing guy would then be one of Chiarot, Edmundson, or Mete. Is Edmundson an upgrade on the other two? Not to me. Maybe he's comparable, but he's not an upgrade and he's not worth giving a 4-year deal to.

So I'll come back to how do we actually fix the top LHD spot? Maybe Romanov or Norlinder comes through in the medium-to-long term. I really think the best guy we can hope to extract from somewhere else would be Bowen Byram though. Top 5 pick, with great skating and offensive ability, and he's in an organization full of good young players where they can clearly win now. It's the perfect setting for being able to offer Colorado a player or two that can help them win now in exchange for a top prospect they don't actually need right away to win the Cup. He's the guy Bergevin should be targeting. If he does that and he trades away Chiarot, then maybe adding Edmundson make some sense. I don't see a need for both Chiarot AND Edmundson.

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Apparently, one of the Montreal analists (wasnt Engels but my old brain is failing me) said that the team was positively giddy with Romanov in the practices. Like they think he's not only NHL ready but probably top 4.  Seems like a very risky move but i guess if you're just so sure...  

Anyway, im prepared to wait & see what MB does.  So far he's made two so-so moves, but in and of themselves they arent missteps. Assuming he does more (and i think he will) then its still possible he ends up with a positive off-season. 

I'm in the wait and see camp too. I’m not drinking the koolaid, eating the magic shrooms or doing puffs yet, but after so so many less than satisfying Bergevin moves, I am starting to see a little more of a plan 1) finally building a prospect pool including this year with a number of picks in the first 4 rounds  2) building depth on the blue line including some size beyond Weber. 3) getting some youth progression in the lineup such as Suzuki, KK and Romanov. I sure hope we can get hope beyond Caufield for sustainable offense thru some trades or this years draft. 
A few people tout Norlinder in a couple of years as a future LHD mainstay - with the proper coaching / development program, I’m looking more forward to seeing Jayden Struble’s potential ceiling. 
 

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23 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

The only thing that's truly baffling is how to satisfy a Habs fan.  If you're the girlfriend of a Habs fan, you're probably going to want to bring a top pairing, puck moving defense man to bed with you.  Even then, it's not guaranteed they'll be happy.

Edmundson is not top pairing for sure.  But he's not a Beer League guy either and this is the part that kills me:  When MTL drafted Cole Caufield 15th ova, Habs fans cried, we need more size.  So MTL goes and gets more size on the blueline, who can contribute offensively, Block shots, hit, kill penalties and everyone says: Oh he's too big, too slow, etc.

BTW.  Jeff Petry was 28 years old when Bergevin acquired him at the deadline from EDM.  In his 295 career games as an Oiler he put up 17 career goals.  In 385 career games with MTL he's posted 52 career goals, 3 times his career total with EDM.  It's not about where you start,  it's about where you end up.  I'm probably the only Habs fan right now who is willing to give both Edmundson and Bergevin the benefit of the doubt.

I do, as well.

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  • 7 months later...
12 hours ago, PleaureDeal said:

Joël Edmundston during regular season had the second best differential +/- in the league and by far the best HABS 

imho, despite the great numbers in the regular season, he's actually been better in the post season. In the last few games especially he may have been our best overall defensman. 

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Just now, maas_art said:

imho, despite the great numbers in the regular season, he's actually been better in the post season. In the last few games especially he may have been our best overall defensman. 

I agree simply solid all around.

 

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

imho, despite the great numbers in the regular season, he's actually been better in the post season. In the last few games especially he may have been our best overall defensman. 

He's been far better in the post-season than the regular season. He was alright in the regular season but his passing has been much better in the post-season and he's doing a nice job of keeping his game simple. Chiarot has also stepped up his game significantly. I still think we'd be better served by having Romanov in the line-up somewhere and Weber continues to struggle, but it's nice to have two guys like Edmundson and Chiarot who have become more dependable and are bringing it almost every game.

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On 6/4/2021 at 5:21 PM, BigTed3 said:

He's been far better in the post-season than the regular season. He was alright in the regular season but his passing has been much better in the post-season and he's doing a nice job of keeping his game simple. Chiarot has also stepped up his game significantly. I still think we'd be better served by having Romanov in the line-up somewhere and Weber continues to struggle, but it's nice to have two guys like Edmundson and Chiarot who have become more dependable and are bringing it almost every game.

We went from having 1 excellent dman (Petry) one good (Edmundson) and two overmatched (Weber and Chiarot) to having 4 guys who can all play solid minutes in the playoffs.

I actually think Weber has been quite good (better some games than others of course). He's still clearly nursing something or else I am sure he would have done more after the Schefele hit - but he's been worlds better than he was in the regular season.    The difference though is that Chiarot has made such a massive improvement that Weber can just focus on his side and not worry about trying to cover up for a partner when he really cant do that anymore.

Edmundson/Petry have been super solid. 

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