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2020-21 State Of The Habs


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On 31/10/2020 at 10:04 PM, claremont said:

Leaf bashing is one of my favourite sports but as an FYI on their prospects, Bracco was not even given a qualifying offer and signed as a free agent with Carolina. I’ve watched Liljegren play and imo he plain out stinks as overrated, with a few of their other D including Sandin Holl and Dermott passing him on the depth chart. The jury is out on their less than inspiring 2020 draft, so they don’t have much that can crack their lineup other than free agent khl players so their depth is going to be challenged 

  ok thx for the correction ....so it is worse than I thought with Bracco gone .....even with him as stated Toronto doesn't rate a 16th overall prospect ranking with not one of them  considered in the  can't -miss  category ... 

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On 10/30/2020 at 10:30 AM, maas_art said:

While I am not opposed to moving Drouin,  "getting better by subtraction" means the spot of player you are moving would be better filled by basically any other player and thats imho a huge stretch.

He may be incredibly frustrating,but he's still a career average 50 point player (.60ppg) which is an upper end player in the NHL.  I understand he's a floater at times but the idea that throwing him away & replacing him with an AHL player or a 4th liner makes the team better is just not true.  

 

While I agree with this .... look at the lines without Drouin and then puzzle out what we might get for him

Tatar - Danault - Gallagher

Toffoli - Suzuki - Anderson

Lehkonen - Kotkaniemi - Armia

Byron - Evans/Poehling - Weal/Evans

I think it's a neglible effect removing Drouin given those lines above ... so in theory, if you got a good LD or better/consistent 2nd/3rd LW/RW then well ....

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Always one player on this team that most fans like to bash.

Right now it  is Drouin. Now I was not a big supporter of this trade in the first place. But now he is wearing the CH and he gets my full support. He has talent which we are lacking. So I would much rather keep him right now, so that when Kotkaniemi and Toffoli struggle to start the year we have some one for the top six. He looked pretty good in the playoffs with Suzuki, looking forward to seeing how that plays out in a full season.

 

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

While I agree with this .... look at the lines without Drouin and then puzzle out what we might get for him

Tatar - Danault - Gallagher

Toffoli - Suzuki - Anderson

Lehkonen - Kotkaniemi - Armia

Byron - Evans/Poehling - Weal/Evans

I think it's a neglible effect removing Drouin given those lines above ... so in theory, if you got a good LD or better/consistent 2nd/3rd LW/RW then well ....

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because i think that Drouin in the lineup is better than that roster(above). I think we'd win more games with: 

Drouin - Suzuki - Anderson
Tatar - JK - Gallagher
Lehkonen - Danault - Toffoli
Byron - Poehling/Evans - Armia

Now, if you could turn around & trade Drouin for a top pairing LD then absolutely im all for it (MB wont do it because he thinks our D is set apparently) but I assume you'd get spare parts back for drouin & right now the last thing we need is depth (you potentially have Byron and Armia on your 4th line!) what we need - what we're lacking - is pure talent, which is what Drouin is.  

 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because i think that Drouin in the lineup is better than that roster(above). I think we'd win more games with: 

Drouin - Suzuki - Anderson
Tatar - JK - Gallagher
Lehkonen - Danault - Toffoli
Byron - Poehling/Evans - Armia

Now, if you could turn around & trade Drouin for a top pairing LD then absolutely im all for it (MB wont do it because he thinks our D is set apparently) but I assume you'd get spare parts back for drouin & right now the last thing we need is depth (you potentially have Byron and Armia on your 4th line!) what we need - what we're lacking - is pure talent, which is what Drouin is.  

 

I agree, he is a floater at times but he really has not had much to work with here either. if he gels with Suzuki and perhaps Anderson it could be an explosive line! he should be more motivated with strong line mates like this. if he starts the year and does nothing....well then I will be done with him but we will have missed any real chance of getting good value back.

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4 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree, he is a floater at times but he really has not had much to work with here either. if he gels with Suzuki and perhaps Anderson it could be an explosive line! he should be more motivated with strong line mates like this. if he starts the year and does nothing....well then I will be done with him but we will have missed any real chance of getting good value back.

I agree I'm far from giving up on Drouin. I think with the right line mates he could be very good. He looked good with Domi for a while. Also so many were on the band wagon for Laine and he has been known as a floater at times and he would of cost us a fortune! When Laine isn't on the power play he doesn't add a lot more. Those same frustrated with Drouin would of been the same except at 8-10 million a season!

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3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I agree I'm far from giving up on Drouin. I think with the right line mates he could be very good. He looked good with Domi for a while. Also so many were on the band wagon for Laine and he has been known as a floater at times and he would of cost us a fortune! When Laine isn't on the power play he doesn't add a lot more. Those same frustrated with Drouin would of been the same except at 8-10 million a season!

Why do we have to keep finding Drouin the right line mates? The guy just does not engage. And Drouin gets more than his fair share of power play time.  He found some chemistry in the play ins/offs with Suzuki? Only because Suzuki made him look good. Laine, at least produces. I'd take those kind of numbers on my team. And Laine is only going to get better.

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9 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Why do we have to keep finding Drouin the right line mates? The guy just does not engage. And Drouin gets more than his fair share of power play time.  He found some chemistry in the play ins/offs with Suzuki? Only because Suzuki made him look good. Laine, at least produces. I'd take those kind of numbers on my team. And Laine is only going to get better.

I'm pretty sure the Laine ship has sailed. Methinks that in MB mind, we're set. 

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32 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

I'm pretty sure the Laine ship has sailed. Methinks that in MB mind, we're set. 

Oh I agree. I think we can roll 4 lines and keep getting lots of shots. Now we have a couple more true finishers to help out. Solid D - so the play shouldn't stay in the D zone for any extended time.  I haven't been this optimistic with a Montreal lineup like this, in years. 

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On 11/9/2020 at 11:35 AM, maas_art said:

 

Now, if you could turn around & trade Drouin for a top pairing LD then absolutely im all for it (MB wont do it because he thinks our D is set apparently) but I assume you'd get spare parts back for drouin & right now the last thing we need is depth (you potentially have Byron and Armia on your 4th line!) what we need - what we're lacking - is pure talent, which is what Drouin is.  

 

Sure Drouin has a lot of natural talent ... what he lacks is Hockey IQ and drive.   You can't teach those and I think we've seen exactly what Drouin brings to the table.   At best on most teams he's a 2nd/3rd line winger ... and if moving him gets us a decent LD or a similar winger pts wise that works harder then I'm for it.

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On 11/10/2020 at 7:13 AM, jennifer_rocket said:

I'm pleased with the lineup right now. I wish we had done more the improve the D, but it is what it is. I can't imagine any other big changes coming. I really feel good about the acquisitions of Anderson and Toffoli. Excited to see what the season brings!

I fear that Anderson is going to be Clarkson 2.0.   He's had one decent season at the pro level, nothing exciting at the Major Junior level either.      And last year he struggled mightily (1g in 20-30 games if I remember).    You just don't throw that kind of money at the guy, nor do you give up Domi (60-70pt guy) and 2nd round pick.

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4 hours ago, 26NCounting said:

Personally I would put Toffoli on the top line and bury Drouin on the 3rd where his limited ice time will do less to hinder his team mates. 

I wholeheartedly disagree with that strategy - you have to give Drouin every chance to succeed before you toss him to the Galchenyuk trash heap, and sell him low. Drouin is 25 years old and coming off an injury season. His 10 game post season run showed a bit of promise. He deserves a full shot next season to see if he is re-engaged and I am confident that he can rebound with the right line mates. 

Edited by claremont
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4 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

I fear that Anderson is going to be Clarkson 2.0.   He's had one decent season at the pro level, nothing exciting at the Major Junior level either.      And last year he struggled mightily (1g in 20-30 games if I remember).    You just don't throw that kind of money at the guy, nor do you give up Domi (60-70pt guy) and 2nd round pick.

Josh will say that he fell victim of trying to play thru a shoulder surgery incurred in his first couple of games last year when clearly he should have shut it down earlier. Bergevin is guilty of paying new players too much money too soon before they have fully proven themselves (Drouin included, Edmundson included).  It’s eerily similar to Burke in Toronto when he brought in Phaneuf appointed him as Captain and gave up a lot for Kessel. It’s part of the desperation attempts to make your team better. On the overpayment- I agree with you at this point. The team mgmt believes that there are very few power forwards that can skate and do what Josh Anderson does. If he stays healthy he’s no Clarkson and should make his linemates better. 

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For lack of a better spot,  Andrew Zadarnowski mentions that " Josh Brook was not on the ice for the Krefeld Pinguine today, reportedly because his first Covid test came in positive. "  Not too much luck for Brook. Hope it's just a false positive. These young guys need to skate. Wonder why they didn't try to get Joel Teasdale overseas. Missing a year is huge.

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5 hours ago, electron58 said:

For lack of a better spot,  Andrew Zadarnowski mentions that " Josh Brook was not on the ice for the Krefeld Pinguine today, reportedly because his first Covid test came in positive. "  Not too much luck for Brook. Hope it's just a false positive. These young guys need to skate. Wonder why they didn't try to get Joel Teasdale overseas. Missing a year is huge.

Hopefully it is. Bummer, because I was really looking forward to seeing him play over here. Now I fear he's not going to play all that much in Krefeld at all... if the test is positive he may have to go into quarantine for a couple of weeks. The DEL still hasn't officially announced a starting date for the regular season and the Magenta Cup they're currently playing in 8 cities is essentially a meaningless tournament that serves as a bit of a trial run for the upcoming season (there was no bubble over here, they simply cancelled last season without having a Cup winner). That tournament ends around December 8th I believe, so all things considered and with the holiday season just around the corner, there's a fair chance that the NHL will actually resume operations before the DEL.

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12 hours ago, claremont said:

I wholeheartedly disagree with that strategy - you have to give Drouin every chance to succeed before you toss him to the Galchenyuk trash heap, and sell him low. Drouin is 25 years old and coming off an injury season. His 10 game post season run showed a bit of promise. He deserves a full shot next season to see if he is re-engaged and I am confident that he can rebound with the right line mates. 

We have already given him every chance to succeed and gotten nothing in return.  I think it's time he has to show us he deserves the right to be placed on the top line.  After all it's his drive that is his biggest downfall IMO so maybe by demoting him and forcing him to earn that spot it may very well give him some spark

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Man. The Drouin stuff is so boring. He's a 50-point player getting paid $5.5 million per season. Anyone that doesn't see the value in that is absolutely not objective in their analysis of this team and its players.

agreed that he's worth the money ...let him have another kick at the can ...this kid is super talented and he's only 25 ...before I'd be so harsh on him let's see what kind of chemistry he has with some of the new guys ...both Anderson and Toffoli can pull the trigger ...it's not like there's no one on this team to pass the puck to .

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On 11/9/2020 at 9:18 PM, electron58 said:

Why do we have to keep finding Drouin the right line mates? The guy just does not engage. And Drouin gets more than his fair share of power play time.  He found some chemistry in the play ins/offs with Suzuki? Only because Suzuki made him look good. Laine, at least produces. I'd take those kind of numbers on my team. And Laine is only going to get better.

I completely understand what you're saying but not everyone is Brendan Gallagher. Not everyone is Paul Byron - a lot of players dont just "fit" wherever you play them.  Should we have to cater our roster to Drouin? No. But if it makes the team better to do so, why wouldnt we want to?  

On 11/11/2020 at 11:56 AM, HabsAlways said:

Sure Drouin has a lot of natural talent ... what he lacks is Hockey IQ and drive.   You can't teach those and I think we've seen exactly what Drouin brings to the table.   At best on most teams he's a 2nd/3rd line winger ... and if moving him gets us a decent LD or a similar winger pts wise that works harder then I'm for it.

As I said at the beginning, Im not opposed to moving Drouin. He's essentially a 1 dimensional 50 point scorer.  If you could somehow trade him for a a player who is (at least) a 40 point guy, who can play a more well roudned game, then yes, Im all for it. But I think you'd likely get back a similar player to him, so i just dont see the point. 

On 11/11/2020 at 11:57 AM, HabsAlways said:

I fear that Anderson is going to be Clarkson 2.0.   He's had one decent season at the pro level, nothing exciting at the Major Junior level either.      And last year he struggled mightily (1g in 20-30 games if I remember).    You just don't throw that kind of money at the guy, nor do you give up Domi (60-70pt guy) and 2nd round pick.

I do worry about the contract but Anderson did have marked improvements in each of his first 3 years.  Last year was a trainwreck but by all associated, he was playing hurt the whole year.   

I would have much rather have signed him to a 1 year "show me" deal although i suppose the risk there is that he explodes and then you're paying him $7m a year after that... 

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10 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Man. The Drouin stuff is so boring. He's a 50-point player getting paid $5.5 million per season. Anyone that doesn't see the value in that is absolutely not objective in their analysis of this team and its players.

Danault scores 53 points and only earns 3mil/season. THAT, is value. 

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3 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Danault scores 53 points and only earns 3mil/season. THAT, is value. 

No doubt about that, just like Gallagher scored 30 goals per season while earning $3.75M. To be fair though, these deals are outliers and can't really be used as a benchmark IMO. There's generally nothing wrong with a 50~point NHL forward earning around 5.5M per season, the problem is trying to build a team around that guy, especially if said player occasionally forgets how to play defense. I think Drouin has given us fair value on his contract so far and will certainly continue to do so. At this point in his career though, I don't expect him to magically put it all together and become the first-line winger we thought he could be. In a good year, he could easily crack the 70-point mark but eventually I think he is what he is, a guy with amazing skills and some consistency/defense issues good for around 50 points per season. Still hoping he proves me wrong though B)

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