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Rank the habs defense


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13 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

 A lot of words using selective stats to promote an interesting theory.  Thank you for explaining what playing defence is. 

Your non-fictional opinion that Kulak is our best defenceman is intriguing but it will not change my fictional ( I have been called worst) opinion based on absolutely nothing but watching him play. 

If you are an American like Capt Welly. For us north of the 49th we have a defence..........ugh even worst than the spelling police!

 

  

 

Worse

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Further fodder for why Weber needs to be protected on D and why pairing him with Kulak makes sense once he's back: Weber is last on the D corps at 35% in terms of controlled zone exits (the percentage of times he possess the puck and we maintain possession coming out of our zone as opposed to just dumping it away or turning over possession). Merrill is 2nd worst at 38%. The best, not surprisingly, are

Kulak 53%

Romanov 44%

Petry 43%

Rounding out the rest are Chiarot at 41% and Edmundson at 40%.

 

I've put up stats that support Kulak's value and why he shouldn't be the 7th or 8th D man on this roster, but this is yet another one showing how he's blowing his teammates out of the water in terms of the value he's bringing to the line-up. This stat is the essence of what we mean when we talk about a "puck moving defenceman" -- a guy who can get the puck out of his own zone while retaining possession so as to launch an attack the other way. Kulak is doing that over half the time, whereas Weber is only doing it a third of the time. I'll reiterate this again but Weber and Merrill are playing the same style of game and for either one to have success, they need to be partnered by a guy who can move the puck better. The best option is clearly Kulak, followed by Romanov. If Weber comes back, it has to be Merrill who sits and it needs to be Kulak or Romanov who partners Weber to minimize Weber from being a liability on the ice.

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  • 1 month later...

Such nonsense. Our dee has been rock solid throughout the playoffs. I can see why Bergy  built the corp we have. It was never about creating offence it was always about clearing the lanes for Carey price and they have done that during the playoffs to perfection and it has played out well.

Using some ridiculous numbers to say Kulak is better then Weber or Chariot or Edmundson boggles my mind. Of course there numbers are lower. They get the toughest assignments every single shift. 

They played guys like Mathews and Marner, Stone and Patches, Wheeler and Elhers ask there coaches how that played out and if they would have preferred Kulak and Romanov instead of Weber and Chariot or Petry and Edmundson

Its almost laughable. The kulak of the game are a dime a dozen. 

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Uncharacteristic error from Edmundson and the Chiarot gaffes.  Do you think fatigue is finally taking a toll on the top 4 D, such that they begin making mistakes in their split second decision making?  I've said all along that riding on 4D throughout the entire playoffs is simply unsustainable.

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1 hour ago, PuckPundit said:

Uncharacteristic error from Edmundson and the Chiarot gaffes.  Do you think fatigue is finally taking a toll on the top 4 D, such that they begin making mistakes in their split second decision making?  I've said all along that riding on 4D throughout the entire playoffs is simply unsustainable.

You have said a lot of things all along..........it shows you do know about the blind squirrel and the nut.

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1 hour ago, PuckPundit said:

Uncharacteristic error from Edmundson and the Chiarot gaffes.  Do you think fatigue is finally taking a toll on the top 4 D, such that they begin making mistakes in their split second decision making?  I've said all along that riding on 4D throughout the entire playoffs is simply unsustainable.

It's possible. I mean, hard to say. Tampa Bay is a really good team. Perhaps we just don't have the bodies (whoever is in, whoever is rested) to beat them in a best of seven. I don't think we played a bad game last night, but Chiarot and Edmundson did make costly mistakes.

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On 7/1/2021 at 10:03 AM, jennifer_rocket said:

It's possible. I mean, hard to say. Tampa Bay is a really good team. Perhaps we just don't have the bodies (whoever is in, whoever is rested) to beat them in a best of seven. I don't think we played a bad game last night, but Chiarot and Edmundson did make costly mistakes.

I don't know, Tampa is a great team that is a fair amount over the cap. If we could score more I think no one would say our D is letting us down. that being said we could use another good puck mover to compliment Petry and help the D to move the puck up to help us score those goals. PP is just another frustrated Laff fan.............

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Because of how we are playing guys right now its hard to say who is ranked where but Id probably amend my list to:

 

1. Petry

2. Weber

3. Edmundson

4. Chiarot

5. Gustafsson

6. Romanov

7 (tie) Kulak / Merrill

 

The top 4 are easy - I can see arguments for one over another (and certain game to game it changes) but after that Its tough. 

Id probably put Gus next but thats largely because we havent see Romanov or Kulak much in this run.  Could they be better? Maybe. But its tough to say.  I think Merrill has had a few pretty decent games lately but overall id rather have Romanov or Gus in over him.  Kulak got torched a fair bit early in the playoffs but he hasnt been given a chance to bounce back.

Will be interesting to see if we try to resign Gus. I think they might. 
 

 
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20 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

I don’t get the dislike of Merrill 🤷‍♂️. He hasn’t been awful . You don’t hear his name so seems to be ok ( to me.  ) 

He actually has been awful:

- 3rd worst Corsi on the team in the playoffs, only 0.1% better than Byron and Chiarot

- Worst Fenwick on the team in the playoffs

- Worst expected goals % on the team at 38% (which means when he's on, we can expect the opposition to score 62% of the goals and the Habs 38%. That's nearly two goals against for every goal for)

- Worst expected goals for in the playoffs (we average 1.7 goals for every 60 minutes he's on at 5v5)

- 2nd worst expected goals against in the playoffs (we average allow 2.8 goals against for every 60 minutes he's on at 5v5). Only Byron is worse.

- Worst expected goals against on the PK as well (9.2 goals against for every 60 min of 4v5 he plays). For comparison, Suzuki is our leader at 2.9 goals per 60, Petry is at 4.5, Edmundson at 5.7.

- In the regular season, worst expected goals for per ice time.

- In the regular season, 2nd worst expected goals % at 44%, only marginally ahead of Eric Staal.

- In the regular season 3rd worst Corsi on the team ahead of only Staal and Byron.

 

So yeah, he has been terrible. He generates zero offence, he can't produce an effective breakout, he isn't very good on the PK, and his possession numbers no matter which ones you look at were bottom or near-bottom on the team in both the regular season and in the playoffs. He's the worst offensive defenceman on the team AND the worst defensive defenceman on the team, and those are the stats. The team simply sucks when he's on the ice. When's the last time you remember him doing anything that helped us win a game or score a goal?

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

 

So yeah, he has been terrible. He generates zero offence, he can't produce an effective breakout, he isn't very good on the PK, and his possession numbers no matter which ones you look at were bottom or near-bottom on the team in both the regular season and in the playoffs. He's the worst offensive defenceman on the team AND the worst defensive defenceman on the team, and those are the stats. The team simply sucks when he's on the ice. When's the last time you remember him doing anything that helped us win a game or score a goal?

Well Merrill helped us win when he wasn't playing, so there's that ....

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14 hours ago, rkgoalie said:

romanov not playing  is a crime  imo, tampa is to fast for are older d  men 

Agreed, he could have been laying some big hits on their forwards when they come into our zone, slow them down some.

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2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

By that logic so did Romanov and Kulak?

Habs' record with Jon Merrill in the line-up: 6-7

Habs' record without Jon Merrill: 6-1

Number of points for Jon Merrill: 0 in 167 min

***

Habs' record with Brett Kulak: 7-4

Habs' record without Brett Kulak: 5-3

Number of points for Brett Kulak: 1 point in 145 min

***

Habs' record with Alex Romanov: 1-1

Habs' record without Alex Romanov: 11-7

Number of points for Alex Romanov: 0 in 24 min

 

Now I don't think team record is the be-all and end-all of the discussion, but I've already posted about Merrill's own personal stats and how we fare with him on the ice, and we clearly get grossly outplayed when he's on and generate no offence while getting pounded in our own zone. At the very least, I think we can say Merrill has done nothing to warrant being in the line-up over the other two. Why not give Romanov a chance? Even if he plays poorly, you at least give him experience to build on for next year. He can't do any worse than what we're getting from Merrill, and I don't see why we continually have to push on with the likes of Merrill, Alzner, Schlemko, Murray, Bouillon, etc. and pretend they don't suck just because MB chose to bring them here and won't swallow his pride.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Habs' record with Jon Merrill in the line-up: 6-7

Habs' record without Jon Merrill: 6-1

Number of points for Jon Merrill: 0 in 167 min

***

Habs' record with Brett Kulak: 7-4

Habs' record without Brett Kulak: 5-3

Number of points for Brett Kulak: 1 point in 145 min

***

Habs' record with Alex Romanov: 1-1

Habs' record without Alex Romanov: 11-7

Number of points for Alex Romanov: 0 in 24 min

 

Now I don't think team record is the be-all and end-all of the discussion, but I've already posted about Merrill's own personal stats and how we fare with him on the ice, and we clearly get grossly outplayed when he's on and generate no offence while getting pounded in our own zone. At the very least, I think we can say Merrill has done nothing to warrant being in the line-up over the other two. Why not give Romanov a chance? Even if he plays poorly, you at least give him experience to build on for next year. He can't do any worse than what we're getting from Merrill, and I don't see why we continually have to push on with the likes of Merrill, Alzner, Schlemko, Murray, Bouillon, etc. and pretend they don't suck just because MB chose to bring them here and won't swallow his pride.

 

 

I'm not against Romanov getting a chance. That said it's just such a small sample size to use as a comparison. 

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There is simply no explanation to have Romanov sitting for the likes of Merrill, Gustafsson or Kulak, 0 , nada. None of the latter 3 will be with the habs next season. Why not give the ice time to a player you hope to have play for your team for the next 7 or 8 years, someone you want to be developing.  He will not cost you a game anymore than anyone else playing right now.

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2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I'm not against Romanov getting a chance. That said it's just such a small sample size to use as a comparison. 

Agreed that the sample size is small... my point is more that Merrill's had 13 games in the playoffs and a chunk of regular season games and the stats are the same throughout: worst offensive defenceman on the team and worst defensive defenceman on the team. Maybe Romanov will play badly too, but at least he's a player with a future here who can learn from the experience. And given that Merrill has been so bad, why not try Romanov?

10 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

There is simply no explanation to have Romanov sitting for the likes of Merrill, Gustafsson or Kulak, 0 , nada. None of the latter 3 will be with the habs next season. Why not give the ice time to a player you hope to have play for your team for the next 7 or 8 years, someone you want to be developing.  He will not cost you a game anymore than anyone else playing right now.

I would hope the team won't re-sign Merrill or Gus. Kulak is still signed next year, so unless he's claimed in the ED or traded, he could still very well be here. The Habs don't have anyone likely to make the jump to the NHL on left D next year, so we're still looking at Edmundson, Chiarot, Kulak, and Romanov as our primary options on the left side (barring a trade or signing). To boot, one of those D men could be claimed in the ED. Kulak is a cheap enough option that I think he's likely to be among the 7 D men on the roster next year. But whether he's there or not, it's clear the D needs an upgrade. Our forwards and goalie have done relatively well in the post-season. Our D has also played above its head defensively, but they contribute little offensively. TVA showed the contributions of the D corps to the offence for Montreal vs. Vegas and Tampa and it wasn't even close. Both those teams are getting significantly more point production and better breakout of their own zone from their defences. It's fine to keep two of those players on our bottom two pairings, but our left D still needs a top-pairing player. There are some guys available via free agency or trade who could be upgrades, so I'm interested to see if MB is more willing to go all-in on a move knowing his team came close this season.

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On 7/2/2021 at 10:18 PM, Regis22 said:

I don’t get the dislike of Merrill 🤷‍♂️. He hasn’t been awful . You don’t hear his name so seems to be ok ( to me.  ) 

Even if he hasn't been awful, he just doesn't seem to do anything helpful.  Coming out of the zone, 90% of the time his pass is across the ice to his partner (when it's not chipped up the boards for the other team to retrieve).  It always feels like a "no, you take it".  Really slows down the breakout, which is where it feels like we're scored pretty much all of our goals.  He's had a few good defensive moments with his stick, but I still don't see him doing anything that someone like Romanov couldn't.

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54 minutes ago, Manatee-X said:

Even if he hasn't been awful, he just doesn't seem to do anything helpful.  Coming out of the zone, 90% of the time his pass is across the ice to his partner (when it's not chipped up the boards for the other team to retrieve).  It always feels like a "no, you take it".  Really slows down the breakout, which is where it feels like we're scored pretty much all of our goals.  He's had a few good defensive moments with his stick, but I still don't see him doing anything that someone like Romanov couldn't.

For me this is it.  
I dont think he's as horrible as some suggest but he doesnt really 'do anything' of value offensively or defensively. He's been good on the PK but he's at best net neutral and ideally we need a guy who brings something positive back there besides the top 4. 

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10 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

Even if he hasn't been awful, he just doesn't seem to do anything helpful.  Coming out of the zone, 90% of the time his pass is across the ice to his partner (when it's not chipped up the boards for the other team to retrieve).  It always feels like a "no, you take it".  Really slows down the breakout, which is where it feels like we're scored pretty much all of our goals.  He's had a few good defensive moments with his stick, but I still don't see him doing anything that someone like Romanov couldn't.

 

10 hours ago, maas_art said:

For me this is it.  
I dont think he's as horrible as some suggest but he doesnt really 'do anything' of value offensively or defensively. He's been good on the PK but he's at best net neutral and ideally we need a guy who brings something positive back there besides the top 4. 

But this is a problem in philosophy. Here you have a guy who generates zero offence. Nil. Nothing. He doesn't score, he doesn't set guys up, he doesn't make good breakout passes. He does nothing to move the puck up ice and into scoring position. So all he's doing is staying in his own zone and dumping pucks back out. For the life of me, I don't know how this got equated with being a good defenceman. To boot, if you look at the stats from the regular season, not only did he have the lowest expected goals generated for our team among D men, he also had the worst expected goals against us when he was on the ice. So we're basically there just taking a beating and giving the other team scoring chances while generating few to none ourselves when he's on. Who cares if he doesn't look like he makes mistakes (even though he does this too)? Just because he isn't flashy and doesn't make highlight reel turnovers, it's just as bad if he's dumping the puck right back to the opponent and having them come into the zone with a 3 on 2 every 15 seconds. It's just as bad if he isn't quick getting onto loose pucks and letting the opposition get a pass to the slot freely. It's just as bad if he can't get the puck up ice and we spend two minutes in a row with sustained pressure in our own zone. It's all bad.

You look at a guy like Gus and he makes some flagrant mistakes. He passes the puck to no one at the wrong time or overskates a loose puck and it jumps out to the viewer as being a horrible defensive play. But the stats suggest that despite doing this, Gus is also completing more of his passes to teammates and driving the puck up ice and keeping the puck in the O zone more than he plays in his D zone. So even though he doesn't make the best reads defensively, he's still giving up way fewer chances against than a player like Merrill and he's generating far more offence than Merrill at the same time. Yet Gus gets the rep as a bad defensive player and Merrill gets labeled a solid stay-at-home D man. To me, a "stay at home" D man only means he generates zero offence and that's bad. If you're leading the league in blocked shots, it's likely because the other team is shooting at you far more often than you're shooting at the other team. If you're leading the league in hits, it's likely because you're chasing the puck carrier most of the time. You don't go hitting players if you're controlling the puck.

So sure, give me a guy like Anderson who goes and hits a lot on the forecheck. And yes, there's benefit to having guys who intimidate the opposition too. Give me guys who shotblock well on the PK. Give me guys who shotblock a higher percentage of shot attempts against them. But don't tell me that absolute shot blocks are a good stat if it's because you're just getting shot at a lot. And don't tell me that stay at home is a good thing. In today's NHL, you have to do more. Merrill frankly doesn't even do the defensive things well, never mind contributing anything on offence or being an intimidating presence. I literally think he brings nothing.

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One thing i wonder is: how much say does Carey Price have in who we play?

I saw three separate incidence through the first 2 periods where, when Kulak had the stick & went past Price, Carey crouched down, put his stick out in front & basically looked like he was waiting for a bad bounce in front of him.

Its interesting, ive never seen him do that with other defensemen near him.... 

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