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Anybody on here remember that movie American Pie? That was a funny movie. Remember that scene when Jim was going to have Nadia over to study, and the whole gang thought it would be funny to broadcast the whole thing via webcam? Funny, this whole debacle seems reasonably comparable to that...

Now obviously, that's just a movie, and it doesn't justify the behavior. But how many of us got up and left the theatre after that scene? 

The idea that this is a "hockey culture" issue, perhaps it's more of an immature teenager issue. 

It's fortunate for so many of us, and especially those in the media that this technology and social media weren't available for us when we were 17, that our inappropriate behaviors from our youth could only be captured in films in the form of fiction, easily shrugged off as such when convenient, when in truth, so much of what we loved about these movies is that they hit so close to home. It's fortunate that every dumb thing we said and did wasn't instantaneously canonized and archived for all time.

A lot of talk has been around the idea that this kid has gotten away with something due to his being in the spotlight, I'd argue exactly the opposite. For some reason, just because this kid is good at hockey, we expect him to be mature above and beyond that of an average 17 year old. 17 year old's do stupid stuff, it doesn't normally get this level of attention.

I wouldn't be making this comparison if what we were talking about was an actual sex crime, but it's not. What he did was a jerk thing to do, you might even say it was a "Stiffler" thing to do. But it's basically tantamount to pantsing someone in front of the whole class, or convincing someone to go skinnydipping, only to steal their clothes so they have to run past everyone naked. I could go on and on listing examples of ways this type of teenage behavior has been exhibited in films that both reflected and influenced our own behaviors as kids.

The idea that this kid owes a debt to society beyond that issued to him in a court of law is absurd, and the mob mentality is frightening. 

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17 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

Anybody on here remember that movie American Pie? That was a funny movie. Remember that scene when Jim was going to have Nadia over to study, and the whole gang thought it would be funny to broadcast the whole thing via webcam? Funny, this whole debacle seems reasonably comparable to that...

Now obviously, that's just a movie, and it doesn't justify the behavior. But how many of us got up and left the theatre after that scene? 

The idea that this is a "hockey culture" issue, perhaps it's more of an immature teenager issue. 

It's fortunate for so many of us, and especially those in the media that this technology and social media weren't available for us when we were 17, that our inappropriate behaviors from our youth could only be captured in films in the form of fiction, easily shrugged off as such when convenient, when in truth, so much of what we loved about these movies is that they hit so close to home. It's fortunate that every dumb thing we said and did wasn't instantaneously canonized and archived for all time.

A lot of talk has been around the idea that this kid has gotten away with something due to his being in the spotlight, I'd argue exactly the opposite. For some reason, just because this kid is good at hockey, we expect him to be mature above and beyond that of an average 17 year old. 17 year old's do stupid stuff, it doesn't normally get this level of attention.

I wouldn't be making this comparison if what we were talking about was an actual sex crime, but it's not. What he did was a jerk thing to do, you might even say it was a "Stiffler" thing to do. But it's basically tantamount to pantsing someone in front of the whole class, or convincing someone to go skinnydipping, only to steal their clothes so they have to run past everyone naked. I could go on and on listing examples of ways this type of teenage behavior has been exhibited in films that both reflected and influenced our own behaviors as kids.

The idea that this kid owes a debt to society beyond that issued to him in a court of law is absurd, and the mob mentality is frightening. 

Yes, exactly. What is best for everyone is just to try to move forward. What's done is done, the media is the only ones benefitting from keeping the incident in the publics eye. They don't care about the victim, fans or Mailloux himself they only care about keeping the headlines going for as long as they can cause controversy sells.

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One thing that's good is we can all have a discussion and debate about stuff, disagreements and all, and not have it spiral into anger and hatred.  I know the mods or admin had some work to do in this thread (wouldn't doubt if something was directed at me, would almost like to know for a laugh) but the vast majority of talk on this forum is really great.  I like hearing others opinions on things, helps with figuring out my stance on a subject.

There really arn't many places online (or in real life for that matter) that you can have civilized debate on contentious issues anymore so thanks everyone for that!

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9 minutes ago, Mr--Huet said:

One thing that's good is we can all have a discussion and debate about stuff, disagreements and all, and not have it spiral into anger and hatred.  I know the mods or admin had some work to do in this thread (wouldn't doubt if something was directed at me, would almost like to know for a laugh) but the vast majority of talk on this forum is really great.  I like hearing others opinions on things, helps with figuring out my stance on a subject.

There really arn't many places online (or in real life for that matter) that you can have civilized debate on contentious issues anymore so thanks everyone for that!

+1 to this.

18 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Yes, exactly. What is best for everyone is just to try to move forward. What's done is done, the media is the only ones benefitting from keeping the incident in the publics eye. They don't care about the victim, fans or Mailloux himself they only care about keeping the headlines going for as long as they can cause controversy sells.

I don't think it's so much about generating news, it's about changing culture. Look at the what Trump did in 4 years. He's openly talked about sexually harassing women like it was funny. He's made it seem okay to be able to threaten your adversaries or people who disagree with you. Whether he's the cause or whether he's a symptom, I don't know, but people nowadays feel entitled to have their opinion and freedom of speech and freedom of action, regardless of whether it impacts someone else or not. Again, I don't think it's so much about this one kid as it is about society accepting something or taking a stand and saying it is fed up. Again, I'm not focusing here on the one kid and whether he got just punishment from the law or not. My biggest problem with the draft is the league and the Habs clearly not caring about what happened. I didn't like it when the NFL just let Ben Roethlisberger come back to work. I didn't like it when Austin Matthews got to come back unscathed. And I'm not a fan of the league and the team saying they're willing to ignore this in order to further the on-ice product. For goodness sake, the team has gone to great lengths to hire a Francophone coach for the past decade because of the optics of what it might look like off-ice to not do that and despite what it leads to for on-ice performance. Is that issue really a more pressing societal issue than the ethical treatment of women?

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24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

+1 to this.

I don't think it's so much about generating news, it's about changing culture. Look at the what Trump did in 4 years. He's openly talked about sexually harassing women like it was funny. He's made it seem okay to be able to threaten your adversaries or people who disagree with you. Whether he's the cause or whether he's a symptom, I don't know, but people nowadays feel entitled to have their opinion and freedom of speech and freedom of action, regardless of whether it impacts someone else or not. Again, I don't think it's so much about this one kid as it is about society accepting something or taking a stand and saying it is fed up. Again, I'm not focusing here on the one kid and whether he got just punishment from the law or not. My biggest problem with the draft is the league and the Habs clearly not caring about what happened. I didn't like it when the NFL just let Ben Roethlisberger come back to work. I didn't like it when Austin Matthews got to come back unscathed. And I'm not a fan of the league and the team saying they're willing to ignore this in order to further the on-ice product. For goodness sake, the team has gone to great lengths to hire a Francophone coach for the past decade because of the optics of what it might look like off-ice to not do that and despite what it leads to for on-ice performance. Is that issue really a more pressing societal issue than the ethical treatment of women?

Donald Trump is proof that we never even came close to eliminating racism, sexism, and the notion that white, straight, Christian males are superior to everybody else. All we did was bury them and Donald Trump allowed them to come back into the mainstream.

The NHL at its most basic is a business, where the product is a game and where the only measure of success at that game is winning. Virtually all of the awards handed out are for teams winning divisions, conferences or being the last team standing at the end and for individual player achievements that contributes to that goal. I think only two of those individual awards are for doing good work that does not involve winning something. That should be a good indication of where the league's priorities lie. Other professional sports leagues have the same priorities which is why they will often look the other way when a player does something that could be considered outside the norms of appropriate behaviour. 

As for the answer to your last question the answer is an unqualified yes. If the Habs were to hire a unilingual anglophone coach or GM the backlash would be widespread, persistent and it would reach the highest levels. The anger it would generate from francophones would be visceral. Contrast that to the drafting of Mr. Mailloux. The usual suspects have expressed their outrage but ask the "man on the street" what they think about it and that outrage would probably be more muted. This time next week no one will be talking about him or the fact the Habs drafted him anymore.

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33 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

+1 to this.

I don't think it's so much about generating news, it's about changing culture. Look at the what Trump did in 4 years. He's openly talked about sexually harassing women like it was funny. He's made it seem okay to be able to threaten your adversaries or people who disagree with you. Whether he's the cause or whether he's a symptom, I don't know, but people nowadays feel entitled to have their opinion and freedom of speech and freedom of action, regardless of whether it impacts someone else or not. Again, I don't think it's so much about this one kid as it is about society accepting something or taking a stand and saying it is fed up. Again, I'm not focusing here on the one kid and whether he got just punishment from the law or not. My biggest problem with the draft is the league and the Habs clearly not caring about what happened. I didn't like it when the NFL just let Ben Roethlisberger come back to work. I didn't like it when Austin Matthews got to come back unscathed. And I'm not a fan of the league and the team saying they're willing to ignore this in order to further the on-ice product. For goodness sake, the team has gone to great lengths to hire a Francophone coach for the past decade because of the optics of what it might look like off-ice to not do that and despite what it leads to for on-ice performance. Is that issue really a more pressing societal issue than the ethical treatment of women?

Fair points Ted and I agree with you that the culture needs to change. The issue for me though is that many fans claim to be advocating for her and wanting justice for her. However, it is being reported that all she wants or needs to move on is a sincere apology. So by removing him from the draft or whatever else is being called upon by the public is not being done for this young lady it is to serve the publics vengeance. If you want to stop the unethical treatment of women in our society. There are better ways to advocate for that than to try to make an example out of this one kid for his immature actions. Implement counseling or education programs at the lower levels of hockey to educate the youth before incidents like this happen. Set forth standards and codes of conduct at the all levels of hockey and penalties for violating said codes.  Choose to set the example through education rather than through vengeance.

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6 minutes ago, Capital Habs Fan said:

Donald Trump is proof that we never even came close to eliminating racism, sexism, and the notion that white, straight, Christian males are superior to everybody else. All we did was bury them and Donald Trump allowed them to come back into the mainstream.

The NHL at its most basic is a business, where the product is a game and where the only measure of success at that game is winning. Virtually all of the awards handed out are for teams winning divisions, conferences or being the last team standing at the end and for individual player achievements that contributes to that goal. I think only two of those individual awards are for doing good work that does not involve winning something. That should be a good indication of where the league's priorities lie. Other professional sports leagues have the same priorities which is why they will often look the other way when a player does something that could be considered outside the norms of appropriate behaviour. 

As for the answer to your last question the answer is an unqualified yes. If the Habs were to hire a unilingual anglophone coach or GM the backlash would be widespread, persistent and it would reach the highest levels. The anger it would generate from francophones would be visceral. Contrast that to the drafting of Mr. Mailloux. The usual suspects have expressed their outrage but ask the "man on the street" what they think about it and that outrage would probably be more muted. This time next week no one will be talking about him or the fact the Habs drafted him anymore.

I'll take that a step further... if Mailloux turns out to be a star, people will be even more willing to overlook what he did. Look at Roethliesberger, Matthews, Kane, etc. The more famous you far, the more important you are, the richer you are, the more you can get away with. Now imagine this was a 17 year-old ethnic minority from a poor background. Much higher chance he would have been run through the mud. Much higher chance someone would have made an example of him. Or imagine he was that poor kid applying for a job at the local supermarket or as busboy or a cleaning person or so on and his future employer found out he had this recent conviction hanging over him. Are we honestly going to say that his potential employer would have overlooked it and pretended it never happened the way the Habs just did? That they would have claimed there was no one comparable to do the job? I'll call BS on that. The Habs did what was best for the Habs. They're not looking to promote values or take the path of what's ethically correct. And they know full well that there's a separate set of rules for them and hockey players as there is for the rest of society.

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16 minutes ago, Capital Habs Fan said:

Donald Trump is proof that we never even came close to eliminating racism, sexism, and the notion that white, straight, Christian males are superior to everybody else. All we did was bury them and Donald Trump allowed them to come back into the mainstream.

The NHL at its most basic is a business, where the product is a game and where the only measure of success at that game is winning. Virtually all of the awards handed out are for teams winning divisions, conferences or being the last team standing at the end and for individual player achievements that contributes to that goal. I think only two of those individual awards are for doing good work that does not involve winning something. That should be a good indication of where the league's priorities lie. Other professional sports leagues have the same priorities which is why they will often look the other way when a player does something that could be considered outside the norms of appropriate behaviour. 

As for the answer to your last question the answer is an unqualified yes. If the Habs were to hire a unilingual anglophone coach or GM the backlash would be widespread, persistent and it would reach the highest levels. The anger it would generate from francophones would be visceral. Contrast that to the drafting of Mr. Mailloux. The usual suspects have expressed their outrage but ask the "man on the street" what they think about it and that outrage would probably be more muted. This time next week no one will be talking about him or the fact the Habs drafted him anymore.

Ha, do white straight Christian males have a monopoly on bias and hatred or something?  Bias, hatred, whatever-ism are human traits that is and always will be a part of the human mind.  Just look around the world and you'll find it everywhere!  Going to the other extreme wont stomp it out because you can't control how people think, you can only persuade with talk and action.  Donald trump is an idiot but biden ain't any better!  They're both touchy feely creepy old men.

Talk about off topic, but I had to reply.

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1 hour ago, Mr--Huet said:

One thing that's good is we can all have a discussion and debate about stuff, disagreements and all, and not have it spiral into anger and hatred.  I know the mods or admin had some work to do in this thread (wouldn't doubt if something was directed at me, would almost like to know for a laugh) but the vast majority of talk on this forum is really great.  I like hearing others opinions on things, helps with figuring out my stance on a subject.

There really arn't many places online (or in real life for that matter) that you can have civilized debate on contentious issues anymore so thanks everyone for that!

For the record,,,, none of your posts were removed. The debate has been pretty much within forum rules so far. Only a few posts were removed for getting a little personal with other members views, otherwise it's been pretty respectful. 

It's certainly been refreshing to see different points of view expressed in a civil manner as you've alluded to. :)

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5 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I'll take that a step further... if Mailloux turns out to be a star, people will be even more willing to overlook what he did. Look at Roethliesberger, Matthews, Kane, etc. The more famous you far, the more important you are, the richer you are, the more you can get away with. Now imagine this was a 17 year-old ethnic minority from a poor background. Much higher chance he would have been run through the mud. Much higher chance someone would have made an example of him. Or imagine he was that poor kid applying for a job at the local supermarket or as busboy or a cleaning person or so on and his future employer found out he had this recent conviction hanging over him. Are we honestly going to say that his potential employer would have overlooked it and pretended it never happened the way the Habs just did? That they would have claimed there was no one comparable to do the job? I'll call BS on that. The Habs did what was best for the Habs. They're not looking to promote values or take the path of what's ethically correct. And they know full well that there's a separate set of rules for them and hockey players as there is for the rest of society.

I think that the way society and the media is run these days that he would have not had any worse treatment if he were a poor person of color.  There's no way the nhl would have went further with the current political climate, maybe 20 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I'll take that a step further... if Mailloux turns out to be a star, people will be even more willing to overlook what he did. Look at Roethliesberger, Matthews, Kane, etc. The more famous you far, the more important you are, the richer you are, the more you can get away with. Now imagine this was a 17 year-old ethnic minority from a poor background. Much higher chance he would have been run through the mud. Much higher chance someone would have made an example of him. Or imagine he was that poor kid applying for a job at the local supermarket or as busboy or a cleaning person or so on and his future employer found out he had this recent conviction hanging over him. Are we honestly going to say that his potential employer would have overlooked it and pretended it never happened the way the Habs just did? That they would have claimed there was no one comparable to do the job? I'll call BS on that. The Habs did what was best for the Habs. They're not looking to promote values or take the path of what's ethically correct. And they know full well that there's a separate set of rules for them and hockey players as there is for the rest of society.

Actually Ted if this had been a normal every day kid in our society, his name would never have been released and we wouldn't have heard about it on the news for the last 3 months. The young offenders act would have protected his identity. Therefore in this case fame is actually working against this kid not in his favour.

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Fair points Ted and I agree with you that the culture needs to change. The issue for me though is that many fans claim to be advocating for her and wanting justice for her. However, it is being reported that all she wants or needs to move on is a sincere apology. So by removing him from the draft or whatever else is being called upon by the public is not being done for this young lady it is to serve the publics vengeance. If you want to stop the unethical treatment of women in our society. There are better ways to advocate for that than to try to make an example out of this one kid for his immature actions. Implement counseling or education programs at the lower levels of hockey to educate the youth before incidents like this happen. Set forth standards and codes of conduct at the all levels of hockey and penalties for violating said codes.  Choose to set the example through education rather than through vengeance.

In theory, that's great. But in practice, we know that doesn't happen. Women, ethnic minorities, LGBTQ... whatever it is, there are examples of mistreatment  that are rampant in society and that have gone on for a long time and there's simply no impetus for change. Look at George Floyd. Far from the first black man to have been brutalized by the police. And the policeman who killed him was far from the first to have done so too. So why the protests? Why the media covering the story and demanding action? Because no action was ever being taken without those steps. I don't believe the policeman would have been charged if it wasn't for the public outcry. I get that it's not fair for Mailloux relative to what's happened to other public figures, but that's because other public figures were let off without any repercussion. As I said, this isn't so much about seeking out punishment for Mailloux, it's about holding the NHL and its teams accountable for the decisions they're making and trying to brush this under the rug like there isn't a problem here.

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18 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

In theory, that's great. But in practice, we know that doesn't happen. Women, ethnic minorities, LGBTQ... whatever it is, there are examples of mistreatment  that are rampant in society and that have gone on for a long time and there's simply no impetus for change. Look at George Floyd. Far from the first black man to have been brutalized by the police. And the policeman who killed him was far from the first to have done so too. So why the protests? Why the media covering the story and demanding action? Because no action was ever being taken without those steps. I don't believe the policeman would have been charged if it wasn't for the public outcry. I get that it's not fair for Mailloux relative to what's happened to other public figures, but that's because other public figures were let off without any repercussion. As I said, this isn't so much about seeking out punishment for Mailloux, it's about holding the NHL and its teams accountable for the decisions they're making and trying to brush this under the rug like there isn't a problem here.

It's not just the league or teams here Ted, IMO the PA is just as much to blame. They are supposed to represent the players and future players but they stood by and let Mailoux enter the draft even though he requested to be left out. There is so much blame to go around that I just can't get behind further punishing the kid for his actions. If you want to fine the Canadiens or void their selection than so be it take that action against the organization, allow the young lady to file a law suit against the league and PA to help facilitate changes. I could get behind that as well. I can't get behind further action against the young man that already paid his debt to society even if said debt was just a fine and a three line apology. Let the young lady and Mailoux move on and forward with their lives and take issue with the league, PA and Canadiens.

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25 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

For the record,,,, none of your posts were removed. The debate has been pretty much within forum rules so far. Only a few posts were removed for getting a little personal with other members views, otherwise it's been pretty respectful. 

It's certainly been refreshing to see different points of view expressed in a civil manner as you've alluded to. :)

Yeah I knew none of mine were removed.  I just figured since your warning was given soon after one of my longer posts that there may have been some replys to me that were a little personal. 

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54 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

It's not just the league or teams here Ted, IMO the PA is just as much to blame. They are supposed to represent the players and future players but they stood by and let Mailoux enter the draft even though he requested to be left out. There is so much blame to go around that I just can't get behind further punishing the kid for his actions. If you want to fine the Canadiens or void their selection than so be it take that action against the organization, allow the young lady to file a law suit against the league and PA to help facilitate changes. I could get behind that as well. I can't get behind further action against the young man that already paid his debt to society even if said debt was just a fine and a three line apology. Let the young lady and Mailoux move on and forward with their lives and take issue tlwith the league, PA and Canadiens.

I don't think anybody is arguing otherwise though, are they?  At least not here. (I can't speak for twitter, lol :P).  To be honest I don't think our positions are actually that different from one another when it comes down to it.

What's done is done, as far as the draft pick goes.  Mailloux is here now, and I honestly wish him all the best.  If he needs it, I hope the Habs can provide all of the counselling/coaching/whatever to help him through what I'm sure is a tough time for him.  Likewise, I obviously hope that his victim is able to move past this (and I'm sure that you and everyone else who doesn't mind the draft pick feels the same way). 

I don't know the kid, or what he was/is feeling in terms of remorse.  Like you've said before, it's not really up to us armchair quarterbacks to judge him one way or another, from a personal standpoint.

 

But it's indisputable that, whatever his feelings on it now, he did commit this, frankly, pretty gross act.  Furthermore, he himself tried to take responsibility by saying "don't draft me - there need to be repercussions for my actions".  For the Canadiens to draft him anyway sends the message, loud and clear, that "we don't take this sort of thing seriously".  THAT is the problem for me.  If Mailloux had gone undrafted, I can guarantee you that every Junior player with NHL aspirations is going to remember that for years to come. Let it be known that, if you want to realize your dream of playing in the NHL one day, maybe it's not such a good idea to take or share those photos, or to go too far with someone who's out of it after drinking, or whatever else.  The NHL had a chance to set a real precedent, to show that womens' issues (and women) actually matter, and they blew it.

And on a personal level, the fact that this was done by the Canadiens - the team that I want to be able to cheer for and enjoy without needing to worry about all of this sort of thing - makes it even more annoying to me.  The fact that it was Mr. Morals himself, Marc Bergevin, pushes it over the top.  He will trade a guy away for having a drug addiction or for being too outspoken, blaming each of those moves on "character", and yet he goes and does this?  Hold that torch high there, bud.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

Actually Ted if this had been a normal every day kid in our society, his name would never have been released and we wouldn't have heard about it on the news for the last 3 months. The young offenders act would have protected his identity. Therefore in this case fame is actually working against this kid not in his favour.

Sweden might have a different set of laws regarding young offenders. 

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1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

St Hubert bbq may ditch their ads at the bell centre 

Ya, heard that, but it might be just an advertising ploy to get some press. "Might", so as of now they haven't pulled their advertising. 

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2 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

Sweden might have a different set of laws regarding young offenders. 

Yes I know that is sort of my point. If this had happened in N.A. Mailloux's identity would likely have never been released. I am not sure what the penalty is here for invasion of privacy or defliamtion but I would imagine it is about the same as in Sweden (fine or at the most some community service). This wouldn't have even made the news due to the fact that Mailloux was a young offender at the time. As I said before there are 3 reasons this is even a story. 1. International incident. 2. The video was sexual in nature. 3. The offender was male. Remove any one of those 3 elements and the story dies. If the video showed a woman fully clothed bending over and the kid zoomed in on her butt the charge would be the same but the story dies cause there is nothing interesting to keep it going. If it happened in Canada or the U.S. the story dies cause the names can't be released under the Y.O. act. If the young lady was the one sharing the video the story dies because who cares about males rights. This was just the perfect scenario for the media to run with the story.

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10 hours ago, Regis22 said:

St Hubert bbq may ditch their ads at the bell centre 

Good the chicken there has really gone downhill! perhaps they should concentrate on getting that right! This is more about getting out there to be seen than taking a stand!

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4 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Lots of people are deeply disappointed in Trudeau 

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8063075/justin-trudeau-montreal-canadens-draft-logan-mailloux/

Trudeau ‘deeply disappointed’ after Habs draft Logan Mailloux despite sexual image charge

That guy only has 3 words that he uses,,,,,,,,,,,,  "concerning,,,, upsetting, and disappointed". 

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This is in no way meant to defend or further the case against our first round selection, but thought i would throw it out there,,,

The Vancouver Canucks announced on Sunday that forward Jake Virtanen has been placed on unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout.

The Canucks are parting ways with the under-performing Virtanen after six seasons. He was placed on leave on May 1 after being accused in a lawsuit of sexually assaulting a women four years earlier.

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11 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

This is in no way meant to defend or further the case against our first round selection, but thought i would throw it out there,,,

The Vancouver Canucks announced on Sunday that forward Jake Virtanen has been placed on unconditional waivers for the purpose of a buyout.

The Canucks are parting ways with the under-performing Virtanen after six seasons. He was placed on leave on May 1 after being accused in a lawsuit of sexually assaulting a women four years earlier.

The buyout was also a result of this lack of production.  I still think everyone deserves a second chance, this doesn't mean I like the pick however.  There were soo many more talented players available

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