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2021-22 State of the Habs


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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

The one guy on your list who really had success after he left was Eller. He's been a key cog for the Caps for the past few years and was one of their best and most important players in the Cup run in 2018. His production has actually gone up in the past couple of seasons, and he's really not getting paid big money. He still had two years left at 3.5M when we traded him, and he re-signed for exactly the same AAV. He's essentially getting paid the same thing as Armia, Byron, Chiarot, Savard, or Edmundson, and I'd take Eller over any of those players to be honest. If you're looking at cap hit, for example, you could have Eller and Romanov or Chiarot and Paquette for the same total price, and I think the former duo provides us with more bang for our buck. Let's also keep in mind that the Habs dealt Eller for a couple of picks and then used similar picks to acquire Shaw, although we got picks in a worse draft class and Timmins had said he would have used the two picks lost for Shaw on Sam Girard and Alex Debrincat (and he said that before either guy was a stud).

As for the others, agreed that none of the ones you listed has come back to bite us yet, but also hard to know if we just really screwed up their development. For example, if Hudon had been given a shot in the top 6 instead of sporadic chances on the 4th line, maybe he develops more experience and maybe success breeds more confidence and better results. Hudon was our best player in the AHL for several years but never got a real chance here. So maybe he never amounts to anything anywhere, but if any one of us had a job where we did it well and never got promoted and were passed over for others and had our names run through the mud by our bosses, it's hard to imagine us having success either. I find it odd that people overlook this and just assume that a guy who was trodden on for 5-6 years here can just go elsewhere and act like they're a clean slate without any baggage or lost time. I could equally list a bunch of players who were never given much chance as a Hab and went on to have success elsewhere: Grabovski, Hainsey, Beauchemin, McDonagh, Robidas, Tucker, Sergachev, etc. It's not universal that every player we've dumped has sucked in other pastures.

 

 

I think you are missing the whole point and that is fine. 

Listing players like McDonough, Sergachev as examples of players who were never given a chance is just crazy and you know it. They never played a game. These were trades that were made to try to make the team better right or wrong. YOU yourself were one of the people who liked the Drouin trade. How has that worked out.

Who has Beregvin traded or lost that was not given a chance. Lars Eller you mentioned, 6 seasons as a hab. One time he reached 30 points, Once. Thats a pretty good chance, Are you kidding me,  he has played his role well in Washinton behind two really good centerman in Backstrom and Knustov, we replaced him with Danualt. we also got Adrew Shaw who played well for us, who would predict all the conussions. 

Galchenyk,  Jared Tinordi, Nathan Beulieu,, Michael MCcarron, Jacob Del a rose, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen, Fleury. these are just a few players that were given a chance over the last 10 years and never did made a real impact in the NHL. the loss of KK ??? we will wait and see on that one. Its more likely drafting then giving the kids a chance, at some point the kids have to show they are good enough..

Suzuki, Caufield, Gallagher, Lekonen, Evans,  Romanov...Just because you dont get first line minutes out of the gate or top pairing minutes on the blue line doesnt; mean your not getting a chance. 

Darcy Tucker - your kidding right, your going to go back like 24 years to try to validate a point, what teams havent made trades they may regret... 

Toronto giving up Tukka Rask, Dallas Stars giving up James Neal, Boston Bruins giving up Blake Wheeler, Patrick Sharp traded to Chicago, Jakob Vorachek traded from Columbus, Flames traded Brett Hull to teh blues, Hawks traded Domic Hasek to Buffalo, Canucks trade Cam Neely to the bruins, Penguins traded Marcus  Naslund to the Canucks...There are pobably a lot more these

If only we could see into the future ....

 

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3 hours ago, caperns61 said:

I think you are missing the whole point and that is fine. 

Listing players like McDonough, Sergachev as examples of players who were never given a chance is just crazy and you know it. They never played a game. These were trades that were made to try to make the team better right or wrong. YOU yourself were one of the people who liked the Drouin trade. How has that worked out.

Who has Beregvin traded or lost that was not given a chance. Lars Eller you mentioned, 6 seasons as a hab. One time he reached 30 points, Once. Thats a pretty good chance, Are you kidding me,  he has played his role well in Washinton behind two really good centerman in Backstrom and Knustov, we replaced him with Danualt. we also got Adrew Shaw who played well for us, who would predict all the conussions. 

Galchenyk,  Jared Tinordi, Nathan Beulieu,, Michael MCcarron, Jacob Del a rose, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen, Fleury. these are just a few players that were given a chance over the last 10 years and never did made a real impact in the NHL. the loss of KK ??? we will wait and see on that one. Its more likely drafting then giving the kids a chance, at some point the kids have to show they are good enough..

Suzuki, Caufield, Gallagher, Lekonen, Evans,  Romanov...Just because you dont get first line minutes out of the gate or top pairing minutes on the blue line doesnt; mean your not getting a chance. 

Darcy Tucker - your kidding right, your going to go back like 24 years to try to validate a point, what teams havent made trades they may regret... 

Toronto giving up Tukka Rask, Dallas Stars giving up James Neal, Boston Bruins giving up Blake Wheeler, Patrick Sharp traded to Chicago, Jakob Vorachek traded from Columbus, Flames traded Brett Hull to teh blues, Hawks traded Domic Hasek to Buffalo, Canucks trade Cam Neely to the bruins, Penguins traded Marcus  Naslund to the Canucks...There are pobably a lot more these

If only we could see into the future ....

 

I'll repeat myself on what I've said about the Drouin trade: I've said that in isolation it was defensible and that it wasn't an unfair trade to make for Bergevin. He got a young player with top-end potential who was better-established than the other high-end potential player he gave up. There was no way of knowing at the time which player would go on to have a bigger impact for the team they joined, and it was realistic to see Drouin as a potential 1C for the Habs, even if that didn't pan out. The Habs gave up a good player and got a good player in return. What I didn't like about the trade was that we had a glaring hole at LHD that had been created in that off-season, with players like Markov, Emelin, and Bealieu also on their way out. So when you put the trade in that context, it was not a good move to give up the one guy you had who could have helped the top end of the left side without having another deal/plan in place to fill that hole.

As for the others, I maintain that it doesn't make any sense to draft/trade for a guy to be a top 6 player and then deal him because you call him a flop before ever giving him a real chance to fill that role. That goes for Galchenyuk, Hudon, Eller, Kotkaniemi, etc. It would be like going to a steak restaurant, ordering fish, and then saying the restaurant's steak sucks because you didn't enjoy their fish. The team obviously drafted Kotkaniemi to be a potential top 6 center, you don't choose him 3rd overall to be a bottom-line player. The guy wasn't Crosby out of the gate, but he showed progression over time, he was great in the post-season, and in limited stints where he got real offensive wingers, he played well. He remained behind Danault and Suzuki on the depth chart though, with Danault getting Gallagher and Tatar as wingers while JK largely got wingers like Byron, Armia, and Lehkonen. I'm just not sure what the team thought they would get playing him in that role that they would call him a flop by age 21.

Conversely look at Max Pacioretty. When he came up as a 20 year-old, they asked him to play on a 3rd/4th checking line and he didn't produce. He had 11 points in 34 games and then 14 points in 52 games the next year, with only 6 goals over that time. And then he went back to the AHL, and he publicly complained about how he was being asked to play a role that didn't fit him. He spent some time in the AHL, and the next year, he got a call-up, but this time, he was placed in the top 6 next to Gomez and Gionta. And would you believe it, the guy scored 14 goals and 24 points in 37 games then went on to follow it up with 30+ goals in most of his seasons with the Habs. So should the Habs have given up on him after he couldn't score as a 3rd line player? Should they have recalled him again and stuck him on the 4th line and told him he would never get a promotion unless he scored 20+ goals in that role first? It's just dumb asset management. You draft a point-producing offensive player, play him in that role.

 

 

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- PP still hasn't scored

- PK has been bad too

- Discipline has been weak to start the season

- Defence is a tirefire, with only one top 3 D man and a pairing of two slow guys without puck skill

- 1st line playing poorly

- 4th line looks completely inadequate

- 3rd line playing okay but has no finish

- Back-up goalie isn't an NHLer

 

Anything I miss?

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3 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

- PP still hasn't scored

- PK has been bad too

- Discipline has been weak to start the season

- Defence is a tirefire, with only one top 3 D man and a pairing of two slow guys without puck skill

- 1st line playing poorly

- 4th line looks completely inadequate

- 3rd line playing okay but has no finish

- Back-up goalie isn't an NHLer

 

Anything I miss?

No. I'm depressed.    😪

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6 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Is he a generational talent ?

no I think next years kid is

 

14 minutes ago, electron58 said:

That's Right!!!! Lottery Protected!

bergebin is a genius.   NOT!

hehehe but it was a big reason I liked the deal, everyone focused on the negative but the gambler in me said that could be two shots to win the lottery 

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

- PP still hasn't scored

- PK has been bad too

- Discipline has been weak to start the season

- Defence is a tirefire, with only one top 3 D man and a pairing of two slow guys without puck skill

- 1st line playing poorly

- 4th line looks completely inadequate

- 3rd line playing okay but has no finish

- Back-up goalie isn't an NHLer

 

Anything I miss?

No net front presence (Gallagher included)

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

1.   I'll repeat myself on what I've said about the Drouin trade: I've said that in isolation it was defensible and that it wasn't an unfair trade to make for Bergevin. He got a young player with top-end potential who was better-established than the other high-end potential player he gave up. There was no way of knowing at the time which player would go on to have a bigger impact for the team they joined, and it was realistic to see Drouin as a potential 1C for the Habs, even if that didn't pan out. The Habs gave up a good player and got a good player in return. What I didn't like about the trade was that we had a glaring hole at LHD that had been created in that off-season, with players like Markov, Emelin, and Bealieu also on their way out. So when you put the trade in that context, it was not a good move to give up the one guy you had who could have helped the top end of the left side without having another deal/plan in place to fill that hole.

1. Your NOT actually repeating yourself, your actually changing your point with each post.  Your proving my point . Remeber this,  YOU used Sergachev and MCDonough as players not given a chance, yet they never even played one game with the habs.  But YOU ignored that. I know YOU really dont read what other people have to say. YOU pick and choose smal pieces of their information so you can ramble on with your poetic justice. As i said earlier you are right it would be great to look intop a crystal ball and know what will happen. Every team in the league makes bad decisions on players. Drouin is looking much better this season and is really engaged. 

2. As for the others, I maintain that it doesn't make any sense to draft/trade for a guy to be a top 6 player and then deal him because you call him a flop before ever giving him a real chance to fill that role. That goes for Galchenyuk, Hudon, Eller, Kotkaniemi, etc. It would be like going to a steak restaurant, ordering fish, and then saying the restaurant's steak sucks because you didn't enjoy their fish. The team obviously drafted Kotkaniemi to be a potential top 6 center, you don't choose him 3rd overall to be a bottom-line player. The guy wasn't Crosby out of the gate, but he showed progression over time, he was great in the post-season, and in limited stints where he got real offensive wingers, he played well. He remained behind Danault and Suzuki on the depth chart though, with Danault getting Gallagher and Tatar as wingers while JK largely got wingers like Byron, Armia, and Lehkonen. I'm just not sure what the team thought they would get playing him in that role that they would call him a flop by age 21.

2. Galchenyk was given every oppurtunity but failed miserably over and over and over. Hudon was never ever an NHL player and know matter what they did would not change that. Eller is a good third line player, after 6 seasons and only once reaching 30 points ( how much time do you give some a chance, 8, 10, 12 years??? Danualt filled that role and we added Shaw it was a good move for this team. They didnt let KK go, they just were not willing to pay 6 millions dollars to a player who was not playing any better then a 3rd or 4th line player.   And there are many people in the hockey world who feel the same way. Hey i like KK and he  may still become a quality NHL player. But I also like Dvorak, plus the Salary. I think it was the right move. Much like you like the Droiun for Segachev. IF only we had a crystal ball. 

3. Conversely look at Max Pacioretty. When he came up as a 20 year-old, they asked him to play on a 3rd/4th checking line and he didn't produce. He had 11 points in 34 games and then 14 points in 52 games the next year, with only 6 goals over that time. And then he went back to the AHL, and he publicly complained about how he was being asked to play a role that didn't fit him. He spent some time in the AHL, and the next year, he got a call-up, but this time, he was placed in the top 6 next to Gomez and Gionta. And would you believe it, the guy scored 14 goals and 24 points in 37 games then went on to follow it up with 30+ goals in most of his seasons with the Habs. So should the Habs have given up on him after he couldn't score as a 3rd line player? Should they have recalled him again and stuck him on the 4th line and told him he would never get a promotion unless he scored 20+ goals in that role first? It's just dumb asset management. You draft a point-producing offensive player, play him in that role.

3. What a wierd comment to make. It really doesnt make any sense. He was sent back to the AHL because he had not earned playing on the top two lines and he learned from that embarrasing situation, he complained about the demotion, sucked for the remainder of the AHL season scoring only 2 goals in 18 games.. Grew up over the summer came back to the AHL scored 17 goals in 27 games.  He didnt just break out because he got top line minutes, he broke out because he grew up as a player and a man and proved what he is cabable of, then he was given top line minutes. I can gaurantee you if he scored 4 goals in 27 games he would not have been given a chance on the top two lines in the NHL... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think you are arguing from different perspectives. There are some who want to make the playoffs every year no matter how so they rather take the safe route with the veterans. You know what you get but there is little upside left. The chance that they become better is smaller than the chance that these players regress over time. In the end it also means that your team has some kind of upper limit it can reach. You shouldnt forget that last season was an outlier not the normal. It is not like the NFL where you have all or nothing games in the playoffs. Over 7 games it is much more probable that skill/the better team prevails. 

Others want to win the cup and realize with the material on hand you wont do that. They rather want to see the unproven players and which upside they can provide going forward. Arguably their chance of getting better is higher than that they regress. It is a more risky route which could lead to not making the playoffs but if you are right you might reach the promised land mid/-longterm.

I didnt know anything about icehockey when the Habs won their last cup. I joined the bandwaggon during the dark years around the millenium. The first highlight was when Theodore had his good time with us. Unfortunately there also not many early Habs games so I have to ***** up my sleeping schedule to watch a game. I did so last night and there was very little to get excited about. Besides Suzuki and Caufield there arent many players I would tune in to watch them like I would do just for the sake of watching how Stützle, Seider or Draisaitl do. So the safer way of going with the vets right now is not very appealing and watchable. Seeing defenders in the attacking zone dumping the puck along the boards to nobody behind the net when there are 2-3 other Habs forwards is just infuriating. We lost too many pucks far too quickly again. I wouldnt have a problem with young guys making mistakes but I have a problem with vets making too many of them because in the end I know there probably isnt much progress to expect going forward anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, Shutoutfan said:

I think you are arguing from different perspectives. There are some who want to make the playoffs every year no matter how so they rather take the safe route with the veterans. You know what you get but there is little upside left. The chance that they become better is smaller than the chance that these players regress over time. In the end it also means that your team has some kind of upper limit it can reach. You shouldnt forget that last season was an outlier not the normal. It is not like the NFL where you have all or nothing games in the playoffs. Over 7 games it is much more probable that skill/the better team prevails. 

Others want to win the cup and realize with the material on hand you wont do that. They rather want to see the unproven players and which upside they can provide going forward. Arguably their chance of getting better is higher than that they regress. It is a more risky route which could lead to not making the playoffs but if you are right you might reach the promised land mid/-longterm.

So the safer way of going with the vets right now is not very appealing and watchable. Seeing defenders in the attacking zone dumping the puck along the boards to nobody behind the net when there are 2-3 other Habs forwards is just infuriating. We lost too many pucks far too quickly again. I wouldnt have a problem with young guys making mistakes but I have a problem with vets making too many of them because in the end I know there probably isnt much progress to expect going forward anyway.

You make some good points and many argue that MB has consistently had a lack of a long term plan / vision for the team. When you draft mid-late rounds your chances of finding those youthful gems of higher ceilings are limited, so we have been in a fairly consistent state of mediocrity. We've patched a lot thru free agency - only really one good 1 in Toffoli so far. Edmundson, Chiarot, Savard, Paquette, Perrault, Hoffman, appear all mid-level. Some fair trades - Suzuki, Josh Anderson likely Dvorak, Allen Our youth development from past years has not paid much dividends yet but I believe we MAY be on the right track with Caufield, Romanov, Evans with Norlinder, Guhle,Harris, Struble, Ylonen, Primeau, Tuch, Farrell, Kidney but those are big if's - youth difference makers are hard to predict. We've let our core almost rot and not surround them with not much - Weber, Gallagher, Price, Petry. Fans can buy into a reasonable plan - it's just we haven't seen much evidence of one position by position

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Eastern                   GP    W      L      OTL      Pts 

Pittsburg                   3      2       0       1           5
Toronto                     3      2       1       0           4 
Carolina                    2      2       0       0          4 
Columbus                 2      2       0       0          4 
Florida                      2      2       0       0          4 
Buffalo                      2      2       0       0          4 
Tampa Bay               3      2       1       0          4 
Washington              2      1       0       1           3 
Detroit                      2      1       0       1           3 
NY Rangers             3      1       1       1           3 
Boston                     1      1       0        0           2 
Ottawa                     2      1       1        0           2 
New Jersey             1       1       0        0           2 
Philadelphia            1       0       0        1           1 
NY Islanders          2       0       2        0           0 
Montreal                3       0       3        0           0

concerned?

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12 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- PP still hasn't scored

- PK has been bad too

- Discipline has been weak to start the season

- Defence is a tirefire, with only one top 3 D man and a pairing of two slow guys without puck skill

- 1st line playing poorly

- 4th line looks completely inadequate

- 3rd line playing okay but has no finish

- Back-up goalie isn't an NHLer

 

Anything I miss?

Perfect assessment! Do not recall any team starting a season so poorly prepared! Right now they are brutal and if they are depending on ther current backup to help Allen then we are in real trouble. This guy is not an NHL goalie. His perfromance in Buffalo was Jr "A" grade.

KK will be in town on Thurs. 

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1 hour ago, electron58 said:

Eastern                   GP    W      L      OTL      Pts 

Pittsburg                   3      2       0       1           5
Toronto                     3      2       1       0           4 
Carolina                    2      2       0       0          4 
Columbus                 2      2       0       0          4 
Florida                      2      2       0       0          4 
Buffalo                      2      2       0       0          4 
Tampa Bay               3      2       1       0          4 
Washington              2      1       0       1           3 
Detroit                      2      1       0       1           3 
NY Rangers             3      1       1       1           3 
Boston                     1      1       0        0           2 
Ottawa                     2      1       1        0           2 
New Jersey             1       1       0        0           2 
Philadelphia            1       0       0        1           1 
NY Islanders          2       0       2        0           0 
Montreal                3       0       3        0           0

concerned?

Concerning part I think is the 3 GF. Worst in the league (other than CGY who’ve played just once). Really only one line that have shown anything 

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14 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

He remained behind Danault and Suzuki on the depth chart though, with Danault getting Gallagher and Tatar as wingers while JK largely got wingers like Byron, Armia, and Lehkonen. I'm just not sure what the team thought they would get playing him in that role that they would call him a flop by age 21.

   As previously mentioned no one would have guessed KK would be offered a ridiculous $6 mill for one year by Carolina ...all other discussion about KK kind of flies out the window because Montreal would have matched any reasonable offer and kept him .He was down the depth chart as a centre for a reason .  He was a work in progress and I never heard anything about Montreal considering him a flop at 21 . In a nutshell it was a vindictive offer by the Canes  but one KK couldn't refuse and , as well , one which Montreal with no guarantees was smart not to match .

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32 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

   As previously mentioned no one would have guessed KK would be offered a ridiculous $6 mill for one year by Carolina ...all other discussion about KK kind of flies out the window because Montreal would have matched any reasonable offer and kept him .He was down the depth chart as a centre for a reason .  He was a work in progress and I never heard anything about Montreal considering him a flop at 21 . In a nutshell it was a vindictive offer by the Canes  but one KK couldn't refuse and , as well , one which Montreal with no guarantees was smart not to match .

While I'm really upset at losing KK, you're right it's the Canes that pulled a dirty.   However ....

I'm also upset at MB for not properly addressing the C issue nor fixing the D.

We lose Weber and he replaces him with a subpar version of Weber (Savard).   And he's still failed to address our need of a mobile defencemen to supplement Petry on another pairing.      Even when Edmundson returns, if we site Wideman, outside of Petry we have nobody who is a proven puck mover/offensive threat.    Kulak is fine in the bottom half, Romanov is a work in progress and likely won't be the solution for another 2-3 seasons. 

We lose KK ... now instead of  being Suzuki, KK, Dvorak, Evans we're left with Suzuki, Dvorak, Evans, Paquette which far inferior.   And that's no knock on Evans, but he's being asked to step into the full time 3rd line checking role when in reality he's a 4th line NHLer (4line, PK).       And the treatment they gave KK, sitting him when they let Suzuki go 20 games without a point and still get 1st line minutes, maligning him in the media, lowballing him on a bridge deal ... no wonder he signed that ridiculous contract.    He may have refused had the Habs treated him like an actual 3rd overall pick and given him a decent offer as a RFA.

At the end of the day, this mess is squarely on MB's shoulders.     Here we are again with a D corp that's outdated (slow), a forward group that lacks a legitimate star,  and we were going to essentially rely on Carey Price who had a mental breakdown after losing in the finals.   Not slagging on Price, slagging on MB for having the same plan year in and year out.

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Nothing like a losing streak to get us up in arms.:lol: It's a little early to push any panic buttons IMO. As much as i would have liked a win or two in those opening games, it is what it is for a team still looking to find some chemistry everywhere through the lineup. If we're still struggling to get goals a dozen games into the season, then that will be a travesty. This division is too tough to fall far behind. The only effort that's stunk so far was in Buffalo with a subpar backup on a B2B opening night road game. A break or two in the other games could have easily seen different outcomes. Right now i'm feeling bad for Allen who must be wondering what it looks like to have a little goal support. Here's hoping we see some light Tuesday.

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