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2021-22 State of the Habs


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50 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

Price in net gives everyone a bit more confidence, and that little bit goes a long way.

I honestly think that the absence of Price and Weber, killed the teams confidence and identity even before the puck dropped on the season. They wouldn't ever admit it but they saw the writing on the wall, pretty sure we all did.

I agree.  The TO game wasnt terrible, we had our moments but then when we started to tighten up you needed guys like Weber and Price to remind them to have fun.  Even Corey Perry might have made a difference.  I love guys like Petry and Suzuki and CC but im not sure they offer the same level of calm that the wily old vets did.   Toffoli, Anderson, Gallagher even - they are all good "lets go guys" sort of teammates but im not sure they offer the stabilizing force that came from guys like Weber and Price.

I do think we'll pull out of this slump and I actually think we might go on a bit of a win streak but this is a fragile team.  Slumps are going to be BAD this year. 

 

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50 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

Price in net gives everyone a bit more confidence, and that little bit goes a long way.

I honestly think that the absence of Price and Weber, killed the teams confidence and identity even before the puck dropped on the season. They wouldn't ever admit it but they saw the writing on the wall, pretty sure we all did.

I just don't buy it, it's not like it's David Ayers in net back there, the team trusts Allen (who is arguably a better regular season goalie than Price at this point anyways). And plenty of teams with questionable goaltending can still score. Given the number of veterans on this team, I just can't imagine they are that mentally fragile.

The loss of Weber is undoubtedly hurting us, but I think it's more what he can do on the ice (which even if not what he was 10 years ago, was still substantial) than the team not being able to survive the loss of their captain. 

I suspect we're dealing with a few things here. One is the losses of Weber, Danault, KK, Tatar, Perry, etc, in isolation weren't huge losses especially considering who we brought in, but collectively may have hurt us more than I was expecting (center is the glaring example here: letting KK and Danault go were both the "right" decisions in a vacuum, but replacing both with only really Dvorak has left us a top-9 center short).  Secondly, is just good players slumping at the same time (basically bad luck) possibly compounded by lack of confidence after multiple embarrassing losses, and third might be coaching - although I won't pretend to really know to what extent that's a factor.

This team wasn't very good last year in the regular season and on paper got worse, apart from having CC for a full-year and hopefully growth from Suzuki and Romanov, so having a slow start isn't shocking. Going 5 games without a point and less goals than games played is more of a disaster than any of us could have reasonably expected though: I suspect it's mostly just bad luck that we're this bad, but time will tell.

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8 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I agree.  The TO game wasnt terrible, we had our moments but then when we started to tighten up you needed guys like Weber and Price to remind them to have fun.  Even Corey Perry might have made a difference.  I love guys like Petry and Suzuki and CC but im not sure they offer the same level of calm that the wily old vets did.   Toffoli, Anderson, Gallagher even - they are all good "lets go guys" sort of teammates but im not sure they offer the stabilizing force that came from guys like Weber and Price.

I do think we'll pull out of this slump and I actually think we might go on a bit of a win streak but this is a fragile team.  Slumps are going to be BAD this year. 

 

I know sports narratives love stuff like the captain helping get the team's confidence back, I just have trouble imagining any sort of speech or whatever leading to the team suddenly remembering how to get the puck in the net.  And if there's specific tactical things we're doing wrong, that's really what coaches are supposed to be fore.

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1 minute ago, Graeme-1 said:

I just don't buy it, it's not like it's David Ayers in net back there, the team trusts Allen (who is arguably a better regular season goalie than Price at this point anyways). And plenty of teams with questionable goaltending can still score. Given the number of veterans on this team, I just can't imagine they are that mentally fragile.

The loss of Weber is undoubtedly hurting us, but I think it's more what he can do on the ice (which even if not what he was 10 years ago, was still substantial) than the team not being able to survive the loss of their captain. 

I suspect we're dealing with a few things here. One is the losses of Weber, Danault, KK, Tatar, Perry, etc, in isolation weren't huge losses especially considering who we brought in, but collectively may have hurt us more than I was expecting (center is the glaring example here: letting KK and Danault go were both the "right" decisions in a vacuum, but replacing both with only really Dvorak has left us a top-9 center short).  Secondly, is just good players slumping at the same time (basically bad luck) possibly compounded by lack of confidence after multiple embarrassing losses, and third might be coaching - although I won't pretend to really know to what extent that's a factor.

This team wasn't very good last year in the regular season and on paper got worse, apart from having CC for a full-year and hopefully growth from Suzuki and Romanov, so having a slow start isn't shocking. Going 5 games without a point and less goals than games played is more of a disaster than any of us could have reasonably expected though: I suspect it's mostly just bad luck that we're this bad, but time will tell.

Yeah I don't disagree with the moves he made concerning KK and Danault but we're still in a tough spot. I think this season was always destined to be a failure. Don't most of us always hate being the middling team anyway? This is what being REALLY bad looks like. I just hope we're the avalanch and not the sabres five years from now

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14 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

I know sports narratives love stuff like the captain helping get the team's confidence back, I just have trouble imagining any sort of speech or whatever leading to the team suddenly remembering how to get the puck in the net.  And if there's specific tactical things we're doing wrong, that's really what coaches are supposed to be fore.

Im not suggesting that.

I agree with what you said above - i think that we're also missing key players like Weber and Danault for their contributions on their ice but right now we're also seeing a team in complete disarray.  If we were playing well when Toffoli-Suzuki-Caufield-Petry-Kulak were on the ice but absolutely owned when Perreault-Pacquette-Armia-Chiarot-Wideman were on the ice then I can say, yeah, its just talent but when the entire team seems to have lose their way - and their confidence - overnight, I do wonder how much those guys might have helped.

Its not that they necessarily should but if the other players buy into the man mountain narrative or the wall of price narrative... i just think that in this case some veteran leadership might have made a difference and gotten us a couple of wins.  We'd still be crap but 1-2-2 is better than 0-5-0 

 

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6 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Yeah I don't disagree with the moves he made concerning KK and Danault but we're still in a tough spot. I think this season was always destined to be a failure. Don't most of us always hate being the middling team anyway? This is what being REALLY bad looks like. I just hope we're the avalanch and not the sabres five years from now

I'm absolutely fine with being REALLY bad for a year or two if that translates into acquiring legitimately talented players who could potentially help us for a decade. Just look at the attendance, people in Montreal aren't interested in the team MB assembled. I hate being a bubble team and just going with the flow, while the GM tells us 'once you make it to the playoffs, anything is possible'. Yeah, we made it to the finals last year and it's been an amazing run we all enjoyed but deep down we all knew this wasn't sustainable. So did the players. I'm honstely sick of having a mediocre team that needs magic beans and a goalie standing on his head to go on a run once in a blue moon. The team is lacking truly elite talent at key positions and it's been the status quo for years. Rinse and repeat? Yeah, maybe we make it to another cup final in like 20 or 30 years from now, that's how long it took us the last time anyway. I'd rather suck for a few years if that's what it takes.

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2 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

I'm absolutely fine with being REALLY bad for a year or two if that translates into acquiring legitimately talented players who could potentially help us for a decade. Just look at the attendance, people in Montreal aren't interested in the team MB assembled. I hate being a bubble team and just going with the flow, while the GM tells us 'once you make it to the playoffs, anything is possible'. Yeah, we made it to the finals last year and it's been an amazing run we all enjoyed but deep down we all knew this wasn't sustainable. So did the players. I'm honstely sick of having a mediocre team that needs magic beans and a goalie standing on his head to go on a run once in a blue moon. The team is lacking truly elite talent at key positions and it's been the status quo for years. Rinse and repeat? Yeah, maybe we make it to another cup final in like 20 or 30 years from now, that's how long it took us the last time anyway. I'd rather suck for a few years if that's what it takes.

One good thing is that it seems we picked a good time to suck with the next couple of drafts being good. Its just scary feeling like this. We complain a lot about not winning but we rarely have seasons that are this bad too. I just don't want to forget how to win

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4 minutes ago, habsisme said:

One good thing is that it seems we picked a good time to suck with the next couple of drafts being good. Its just scary feeling like this. We complain a lot about not winning but we rarely have seasons that are this bad too. I just don't want to forget how to win

Agreed but I'm still concerned though because I don't trust our player development. We had a couple of top 5 picks in the not-too-distant past and both are gone now without having helped us all that much. I understand that Montreal is a difficult market but at some point we probably should start asking the tough questions. Who's to blame here? Scouting, drafting, development, the players themselves or all of the above to some degree? I don't have the answer but what I do know is that if you have a top 5 pick, you better make it count. We failed twice.

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54 minutes ago, habsisme said:

One good thing is that it seems we picked a good time to suck with the next couple of drafts being good. Its just scary feeling like this. We complain a lot about not winning but we rarely have seasons that are this bad too. I just don't want to forget how to win

I like Dvorak but man.. now im wishing we had both 1st rounders.  

I really hope, if we dont somehow recover in a hurry, that MB tries to get a couple more 1sts

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I like Dvorak but man.. now im wishing we had both 1st rounders.  

I really hope, if we dont somehow recover in a hurry, that MB tries to get a couple more 1sts

yeah, i agree, but if Dvorak plays the way we all thought he would, its a good young player on a good contract. And Carolina looks to be off to a good start. I don't know how we get more firsts though, the best player with an expiring contract is Chiarot and I don't think MB is going to be able to move guys with term unless its money in, money out. And I don't think we're in full rebuild mode, more like reload mode. I know this teams sucks right now but we know they're not this bad, there are some very nice pieces that you want to keep moving forward. 

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2 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Agreed but I'm still concerned though because I don't trust our player development. We had a couple of top 5 picks in the not-too-distant past and both are gone now without having helped us all that much. I understand that Montreal is a difficult market but at some point we probably should start asking the tough questions. Who's to blame here? Scouting, drafting, development, the players themselves or all of the above to some degree? I don't have the answer but what I do know is that if you have a top 5 pick, you better make it count. We failed twice.

Agree with what you posted. Ultimately, it's the GM who makes the decision on who to draft. We'll never know what others involved in the discussions wanted. MB has failed as a GM. Who would want him as a President of Hockey Operations? 

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13 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Agree with what you posted. Ultimately, it's the GM who makes the decision on who to draft. We'll never know what others involved in the discussions wanted. MB has failed as a GM. Who would want him as a President of Hockey Operations? 

From what I understand the PHO is just an advisor or go between for the GM and Owner. He or she has little to no input on the configuration of the roster or player development. I could be wrong altogether but if right that is exactly the position we need MB in if he is staying. He can mentor the GM (Roy or someone else) while having no impact on the roster.

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2 hours ago, habsisme said:

yeah, i agree, but if Dvorak plays the way we all thought he would, its a good young player on a good contract. And Carolina looks to be off to a good start. I don't know how we get more firsts though, the best player with an expiring contract is Chiarot and I don't think MB is going to be able to move guys with term unless its money in, money out. And I don't think we're in full rebuild mode, more like reload mode. I know this teams sucks right now but we know they're not this bad, there are some very nice pieces that you want to keep moving forward. 

To be fair  not all of us thought Dvorak could play 2C some of us only saw him as a 3C but we all thought him and the rest of the team would be better than they have showed this far lol.

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11 hours ago, maas_art said:

Im not suggesting that.

I agree with what you said above - i think that we're also missing key players like Weber and Danault for their contributions on their ice but right now we're also seeing a team in complete disarray.  If we were playing well when Toffoli-Suzuki-Caufield-Petry-Kulak were on the ice but absolutely owned when Perreault-Pacquette-Armia-Chiarot-Wideman were on the ice then I can say, yeah, its just talent but when the entire team seems to have lose their way - and their confidence - overnight, I do wonder how much those guys might have helped.

Its not that they necessarily should but if the other players buy into the man mountain narrative or the wall of price narrative... i just think that in this case some veteran leadership might have made a difference and gotten us a couple of wins.  We'd still be crap but 1-2-2 is better than 0-5-0 

 

I guess if it was a case of the "narratives" building confidence, I'd expect that to have shown up last year: like the team always playing terrible in games Allen was in net, or Weber having way better +/- then the rest of the team because the team can only perform knowing he's on the ice.

I do think right now there is a confidence issue, a bad losing streak to start the season will do that. I just don't think having Weber or Price would make any difference beyond their on-ice contributions.

Impossible to know for sure, and admittedly I don't have a completely cohesive answer for what's going on now, so don't want to dismiss any possibility, it just seems like too easy of an answer to me.

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7 hours ago, campabee82 said:

From what I understand the PHO is just an advisor or go between for the GM and Owner. He or she has little to no input on the configuration of the roster or player development. I could be wrong altogether but if right that is exactly the position we need MB in if he is staying. He can mentor the GM (Roy or someone else) while having no impact on the roster.

 What you describe is more of the president (responsible for running the overall team), president of hockey ops runs the hockey ops department, but that was already the role of the GM, so honestly I have no idea what the point of POH is (I suspect it's basically a pointless role). Bringing in a guy who's sole job seems to be supervising another guy just seems silly.

I suspect it's highly organizational dependent what they actually do and how much power / input they actually wield.  In some cases it seemed to be a way to fire a GM without actually firing them, in some it seemed to be a marketing gimmick to bring in a big name, in some they seem to almost be co-GM, in some they are probably more of an advisor, despite technically being the GM's boss, etc.  It does seem in most situations where we suspected the GM would just be a puppet for PHO (Vegas, Calgary, etc), that didn't seem to actually turn out to be the case.

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This whole thing could be worse. I watched some of the Oilers, Vegas game last night. I was not sure if it was a hockey game or what!

Shiny gold Helmets, give me a break. I prefer watching us lose each night than to watch something like that. It looks so amateurish.

It didn't even look like a professional team. It sad that so many really good hockey players have to play in a sporting event looking like that.

Maybe I am old and a tradionalist, if thats a word. But hockey is a real sport, i get promoting of the ice, on the boards and in the stands.

This is not WWE. This is not fantasy. LOL. my rant to draw attention away from the habs, i know it did not work. 

Anyway on a side note, We win tonight, and 3 out of the 4 on the western swing and move to 4 and 6 after 10 games. 

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58 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

This whole thing could be worse. I watched some of the Oilers, Vegas game last night. I was not sure if it was a hockey game or what!

Shiny gold Helmets, give me a break. I prefer watching us lose each night than to watch something like that. It looks so amateurish.

It didn't even look like a professional team. It sad that so many really good hockey players have to play in a sporting event looking like that.

Maybe I am old and a tradionalist, if thats a word. But hockey is a real sport, i get promoting of the ice, on the boards and in the stands.

This is not WWE. This is not fantasy. LOL. my rant to draw attention away from the habs, i know it did not work. 

Anyway on a side note, We win tonight, and 3 out of the 4 on the western swing and move to 4 and 6 after 10 games. 

I agree completely and please no more ads on jerseys actually none at all. It is like shiny now. I know they are using "player safety" as a reason but soon hockey will be just basketball or soccer on ice. No one is hitting anyone in open ice. A hit now is just holding someone up against the board basically pushing. Sure McDavid and others can fly down the ice . because no one can impede them like a hip check from Robinson or a step up from Scott Stevens. Now it's just poke at the puck. Can't hit someones stick. They may not have a grip on it and it's drops for a penalty. I recently saw a game where two different plays the guys had one hand on the stick and they barley got touched lost the sticks yep penalties. I know the league values scoring and I'm not against that. But at one time you had to earn it. 

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3 hours ago, caperns61 said:

This whole thing could be worse. I watched some of the Oilers, Vegas game last night. I was not sure if it was a hockey game or what!

Shiny gold Helmets, give me a break. I prefer watching us lose each night than to watch something like that. It looks so amateurish.

It didn't even look like a professional team. It sad that so many really good hockey players have to play in a sporting event looking like that.

Maybe I am old and a tradionalist, if thats a word. But hockey is a real sport, i get promoting of the ice, on the boards and in the stands.

This is not WWE. This is not fantasy. LOL. my rant to draw attention away from the habs, i know it did not work. 

Anyway on a side note, We win tonight, and 3 out of the 4 on the western swing and move to 4 and 6 after 10 games. 

LOL...you gotta wear welder's goggles to watch those games! 

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3 hours ago, caperns61 said:

This whole thing could be worse. I watched some of the Oilers, Vegas game last night. I was not sure if it was a hockey game or what!

Shiny gold Helmets, give me a break. I prefer watching us lose each night than to watch something like that. It looks so amateurish.

It didn't even look like a professional team. It sad that so many really good hockey players have to play in a sporting event looking like that.

Maybe I am old and a tradionalist, if thats a word. But hockey is a real sport, i get promoting of the ice, on the boards and in the stands.

This is not WWE. This is not fantasy. LOL. my rant to draw attention away from the habs, i know it did not work. 

Anyway on a side note, We win tonight, and 3 out of the 4 on the western swing and move to 4 and 6 after 10 games. 

 

23 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

LOL...you gotta wear welder's goggles to watch those games! 

How do you think they win so many games? They blind the other teams lol. 

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22 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

The worst thing that could ever happen to a bubble team happened to this team last year.

They made the SCF.

We can argue about the changes made till we're blue in the face, but realistically we didn't lose anybody that is elite right now (Danault, KK, Gustaffson, Weber) nor did we add anybody elite (Dvorak, Hoffman, Savard).   This team is essentially the same one as last year, that barely made the playoffs due to the conference alignment (they would not have made it in the tradtional alignment), barely made it out of the 1st round and over played their talent.

This simply isn't a very good team nor has it been a good team for the last 5 years.  I fully expected this team to stink it up this season given the roster and the lack of meaningful changes.   Oh we'll get out of this funk and we'll start winning some games, but we were going to finish out of the playoffs regardless.

In the big picture, I agree with you that the team isn't significantly better or worse on paper, but I do think they're worse. All in all, I don't love the off-season they had...

- Dvorak for Danault is about equal. Danault is better defensively, but Dvorak has more offensive upside and is younger.

- Kotkaniemi was never replaced. They've promoted Evans and they added some combination of Paquette/Perreault to play center in place of Evans/Staal as the last center. So essentially, that's Paquette in for Kotkaniemi, which is a huge downgrade.

- Weber was a shadow of his former self, but still way better than what Savard has brought this year. Savard looks like a right-handed version of Chiarot, and that's a 3rd-pairing D man who needs a good partner to succeed.

- Hoffman for Tatar is also a bit of a lateral move but probably a downgrade. Hoffman is a better goal-scorer and will help the PP, but Tatar was better defensively, better with the puck, and could be played in more situations. He was grossly undervalued by the team over the last year and a half. Hoffman is more one-dimensional.

- Add on that we're missing Price and Edmundson and that we were counting on Caufield and Romanov to make big jumps and neither has yet, and here we are.

So nothing earth-shattering but nothing that really made us better and in totality, I think we're worse.

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2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

In the big picture, I agree with you that the team isn't significantly better or worse on paper, but I do think they're worse. All in all, I don't love the off-season they had...

- Dvorak for Danault is about equal. Danault is better defensively, but Dvorak has more offensive upside and is younger.

- Kotkaniemi was never replaced. They've promoted Evans and they added some combination of Paquette/Perreault to play center in place of Evans/Staal as the last center. So essentially, that's Paquette in for Kotkaniemi, which is a huge downgrade.

- Weber was a shadow of his former self, but still way better than what Savard has brought this year. Savard looks like a right-handed version of Chiarot, and that's a 3rd-pairing D man who needs a good partner to succeed.

- Hoffman for Tatar is also a bit of a lateral move but probably a downgrade. Hoffman is a better goal-scorer and will help the PP, but Tatar was better defensively, better with the puck, and could be played in more situations. He was grossly undervalued by the team over the last year and a half. Hoffman is more one-dimensional.

- Add on that we're missing Price and Edmundson and that we were counting on Caufield and Romanov to make big jumps and neither has yet, and here we are.

So nothing earth-shattering but nothing that really made us better and in totality, I think we're worse.

Agreed

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59 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

In the big picture, I agree with you that the team isn't significantly better or worse on paper, but I do think they're worse. All in all, I don't love the off-season they had...

- Dvorak for Danault is about equal. Danault is better defensively, but Dvorak has more offensive upside and is younger.

- Kotkaniemi was never replaced. They've promoted Evans and they added some combination of Paquette/Perreault to play center in place of Evans/Staal as the last center. So essentially, that's Paquette in for Kotkaniemi, which is a huge downgrade.

- Weber was a shadow of his former self, but still way better than what Savard has brought this year. Savard looks like a right-handed version of Chiarot, and that's a 3rd-pairing D man who needs a good partner to succeed.

- Hoffman for Tatar is also a bit of a lateral move but probably a downgrade. Hoffman is a better goal-scorer and will help the PP, but Tatar was better defensively, better with the puck, and could be played in more situations. He was grossly undervalued by the team over the last year and a half. Hoffman is more one-dimensional.

- Add on that we're missing Price and Edmundson and that we were counting on Caufield and Romanov to make big jumps and neither has yet, and here we are.

So nothing earth-shattering but nothing that really made us better and in totality, I think we're worse.

Even though the team isn't scoring a lot of our team scoring was related to turn overs which we then scored on the rush. Once the team defense tightens up scoring will come . We need a concentrated forward whole team defense. Then work our way back. Team is missing from last year Danault, Weber, Edmonson, Byron all considered good defensively. 

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^^ Also important to remember that the Habs last year spent the season playing the likes of Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg over and over. Those were teams with less fantastic team defence. Winnipeg probably had the biggest joke of a defence corps in the entire league and Vancouver and Ottawa weren't far behind. Edmonton's goaltending was laughable. So we're getting back into a situation where we're facing better-quality teams and better-coached teams.

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DVORAK, PERREUALT. 5,400,000 million , 4 goals 3 assists 

Danualt, Kotkaniemi, 11,600,035 million, 2 goals, 1 assist..

This is just some humour guys/gals so dont get all offended. 

Its was just funny looking at some of previous comments  how much better we would be with Danault and Kotkaniemi after only 5 games, so here we are after 6 games. 

As i said in a previous post, lets see where things are around the 20 game mark, were 3 points behind Toronto and Tampa, would 76 games left to catch them :)

 

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2 hours ago, caperns61 said:

DVORAK, PERREUALT. 5,400,000 million , 4 goals 3 assists 

Danualt, Kotkaniemi, 11,600,035 million, 2 goals, 1 assist..

This is just some humour guys/gals so dont get all offended. 

Its was just funny looking at some of previous comments  how much better we would be with Danault and Kotkaniemi after only 5 games, so here we are after 6 games. 

As i said in a previous post, lets see where things are around the 20 game mark, were 3 points behind Toronto and Tampa, would 76 games left to catch them :)

 

And Dvorak, Perreault had 2 pts between them through our first 5 games ... in which we went 0-5.  

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