Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

2021-22 State of the Habs


H_T_L
 Share

Recommended Posts

50 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

 tell any player playing through injury to rest and heal and anyone in need of surgery to do it now before the Canadiens hurt their chances at Wright with a winning streak that likely won’t save their season and definitely won’t turn them into a Cup contender.

This is good advice. I hope management are thinking like this but doubt they are. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

Interesting that Kulak was given a therapy day yesterday and now skating outside of the group session today. His name has been in a lot of rumours lately, wonder if he is on the move when Edmundson returns to the lineup.

I have to think Norlinder should be on a 9 game trial and risk evaluation before they think about returning him to Sweden, and that impacts Chiarot or Kulak on Edmundson’s return. 
IMO Kulak is the cheap pickup for cap constrained teams but realistically does Brett get much more than a 2nd rounder or journeyman, or another down on his preliminary talent prospect? The bigger piece is Chiarot and his recent play/track record- Ben’s value goes up closer to the deadline unless we get a fabulous offer now - either way the blue line is getting crowded if the risk of mistakes  of playing Norlinder is low. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

I wonder when the last time was that we got 12 out of a possible 40 points in a stretch during a season... 

When you put it like that,  it sounds even worse.  Kinda like, saying it out loud. We haven't won 2 games in a row yet. I can see being passed by the teams behind us, before moving up the ladder. 12 points out of 40.  Sheeesh. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Actually 8 Pt.'s isn't totally undoable. St. Louis was last in the league at Christmas the year they won the cup! Hopefully Allen is back and Edmonson comes back soon and Carey comes back fresh and strong. 

St. Louis rode a blazing hot goalie, who just got called up. Do we have anyone like that?  It would have to be CP in his prime. I'm just not as optimistic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, as the article notes, its technically possible, sure, but its incredibly unlikely.  And more importantly, do we want it at this stage?  This season has been putrid. Is it better to have a great run, squeak into the playoffs (or finish just outside) or is it better to flame out & draft Wright or Miroshnichenko or Cooley,  Slafkovsky or Geekie? Right now we have 2 potential elite players in Suzuki and Caufield.  Now is the time to add another (or a few if we can trade vets for high picks/prospects).  There's just no point in squeaking by and being 'just good enough" to be in the middle of the pack. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, as the article notes, its technically possible, sure, but its incredibly unlikely.  And more importantly, do we want it at this stage?  This season has been putrid. Is it better to have a great run, squeak into the playoffs (or finish just outside) or is it better to flame out & draft Wright or Miroshnichenko or Cooley,  Slafkovsky or Geekie? Right now we have 2 potential elite players in Suzuki and Caufield.  Now is the time to add another (or a few if we can trade vets for high picks/prospects).  There's just no point in squeaking by and being 'just good enough" to be in the middle of the pack. 

 

Last year was a freak show - I’m tired of quasi-mediocrity too. We need to assemble the foundation for competing in some form of window 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, as the article notes, its technically possible, sure, but its incredibly unlikely.  And more importantly, do we want it at this stage?  This season has been putrid. Is it better to have a great run, squeak into the playoffs (or finish just outside) or is it better to flame out & draft Wright or Miroshnichenko or Cooley,  Slafkovsky or Geekie? Right now we have 2 potential elite players in Suzuki and Caufield.  Now is the time to add another (or a few if we can trade vets for high picks/prospects).  There's just no point in squeaking by and being 'just good enough" to be in the middle of the pack. 

I hope you're right about the potentiality of Suzuki and Caulfield being elite. I don't think we'll get that from them, but hopefully they'll be important, contributing top-six players for this franchise for a long time.

I would agree. I don't see any point in the organization "middling" for the next 3-4 years. Just be terrible and get good picks. And then hire a GM and coaching staff in the NHL and AHL that can develop the talent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, claremont said:

I have to think Norlinder should be on a 9 game trial and risk evaluation before they think about returning him to Sweden, and that impacts Chiarot or Kulak on Edmundson’s return. 
IMO Kulak is the cheap pickup for cap constrained teams but realistically does Brett get much more than a 2nd rounder or journeyman, or another down on his preliminary talent prospect? The bigger piece is Chiarot and his recent play/track record- Ben’s value goes up closer to the deadline unless we get a fabulous offer now - either way the blue line is getting crowded if the risk of mistakes  of playing Norlinder is low. 

Yes I agree with you on all of this and actually only expect a 4th at best for Kulak, I only brought it up cause he was given a therapy day yesterday, then today when Edmundson skated with the Kulak was pulled away from the group. This could be something as simple as Kulak has a minor injury they want to monitor or it could be preventative because a deal is in motion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I hope you're right about the potentiality of Suzuki and Caulfield being elite. I don't think we'll get that from them, but hopefully they'll be important, contributing top-six players for this franchise for a long time.

Suzuki, when he's not being asked to be like the only top 6 centre we have, I think will be an 85-90point 2 way centre. To me that is elite. Caufield, while he's had a rough start this year, showed me a vision i have not seen on this team since maybe... kovalev?  He was just always in the right place - and not by fluke. You'd watch him watch the play, make the calculations and get to the right spots. You couple that with his release & Id actually be shocked if he's not (soon) a 40+ goal scorer.  HIs size is the only thing but he's a shifty enough skater (and he's pretty solid on his skates) that I think he'll be fine. 

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I would agree. I don't see any point in the organization "middling" for the next 3-4 years. Just be terrible and get good picks. And then hire a GM and coaching staff in the NHL and AHL that can develop the talent.

Better still, lets trade some assets now too - so we're not only guaranteeing a couple of good years of high picks but also acquiring other teams' too. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I hope you're right about the potentiality of Suzuki and Caulfield being elite. I don't think we'll get that from them, but hopefully they'll be important, contributing top-six players for this franchise for a long time.

Suzuki is definitely capable of being a PPG player. He's done it for stretches in his career already and now just has to work on not having similar stretches of 5-6 games where he goes pointless. I think he's a definite 1C and top 32 center in the league and it remains to be seen if he can become a top 5-10 center. We all have our own definitions of elite, but to me, it's someone who can be top 5-10 at their position in the game and a player who can really take over games and lead their team to victory. As far as centers go, I'd classify McDavid, Crosby, Barzal, Stamkos, Aho, Barkov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Point, Matthews, Eichel, and Bergeron as being in a higher class than Suzuki right now. I'd probably pop Nick in a second tier along with the likes of Scheifele, Pettersson, Hertl, Larkin, Couturier, Zibanejad, Tavares, ROR, and others. They're all great players, they're all 1C's. Not sure I'd say Suzuki is elite yet, but agreed that he has the potential to get there.

Caufield is a bit more of an uncertain case. He has the potential to be an elite shooter, but he needs work in other areas of his game still and being small, it's still possible other teams find ways to neutralize him. I think the odds are high that he remains a quality NHLer capable of 20 goals a year and maybe more. Is he going to get to a Pacioretty level where he's good for 30-35+ consistently? Remains to be seen. I do think Norlinder has that potential ceiling as much as Caufield does. Norlinder plays a more important position and he has a skillset that's rare. Again, remains to be seen if he can correct other areas of his game to make himself a more complete player, but the vision, passing, skating, and puck skill are all there. And I'll take a 60-point D man who can quarterback a PP like Karlsson over a 30-40 goal sniper like Vanek any day. Past that, not a lot of guys with elite ceiling in the organization. Kotkaniemi definitely had a high ceiling, albeit who knows if he ever gets there. Harris is also intriguing but sounds like he'll never play here, and I think we're looking at more of a Dan Boyle or Bryan Rafalski type player (solid top pairing guy) as his top potential than a Scott Niedermayer truly elite type.

At the end of the day, we're playing a hand with a lot of good supporting cast players but few to no dominant/elite players at present. Would be nice to end up with a top pick in a draft where the talent isn't below average, and again, personally I have more hope for the 2023 draft than the 2022 one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Harris is also intriguing but sounds like he'll never play here, and I think we're looking at more of a Dan Boyle or Bryan Rafalski type player (solid top pairing guy) as his top potential than a Scott Niedermayer truly elite type.

Ted, can you tell me a little more about why you expect Jordan Harris to not play in Montreal? Is he a free agent after his fourth year of college?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Ted, can you tell me a little more about why you expect Jordan Harris to not play in Montreal? Is he a free agent after his fourth year of college?

Once you draft a player, there are different statutes on how long you retain that player's rights. For US college players, I believe they become UFA's if they are older than 20 and go unsigned for more than 30 days after finishing their college careers OR if they have completed 4 years of college and still haven't been signed. In Harris' case, he's in his 4th year now, and the Habs only have until the end of this season to sign him without losing his rights for nothing. This is what happened with players like Justin Schultz, Jimmy Vesey, Kevin Hayes, Mike Reilly, and others. They were drafted but never signed with the team drafting them and were lost to free agency. Adam Fox is probably the most notable name in recent past, where he was drafted by the Flames and then traded to the Canes and told both those teams he wouldn't play for them and wanted to go to the Rangers. So both those teams traded him and he signed with the Rangers.

Bergevin, in an interview a few days ago, was asked about Harris and said "if he decides he likes Boston or New York and prefers to play for the Bruins or Rangers, there's not much we can do about it." It kind of gave the impression he wasn't confident in signing him and that the team suspected he had an alternative destination in mind. It does seem that since the pandemic started that certain players prefer to play in Canada or play in the US. Bergevin also seemed to say that Corey Perry, for example, chose Tampa not for the money or term but because his family was based in the US and the pandemic restrictions made it difficult for them to get into Canada or for travel back and forth to be realistic.

In any case, it sounds like the Habs haven't advanced talks with Harris very much. Most people thought he was ready to step into an NHL line-up last year, and there's clearly an opportunity for him to become top 4 on the Habs D almost right away. So it was a bit surprising to see him renege on that opportunity and play out his last year in college.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Once you draft a player, there are different statutes on how long you retain that player's rights. For US college players, I believe they become UFA's if they are older than 20 and go unsigned for more than 30 days after finishing their college careers OR if they have completed 4 years of college and still haven't been signed. In Harris' case, he's in his 4th year now, and the Habs only have until the end of this season to sign him without losing his rights for nothing. This is what happened with players like Justin Schultz, Jimmy Vesey, Kevin Hayes, Mike Reilly, and others. They were drafted but never signed with the team drafting them and were lost to free agency. Adam Fox is probably the most notable name in recent past, where he was drafted by the Flames and then traded to the Canes and told both those teams he wouldn't play for them and wanted to go to the Rangers. So both those teams traded him and he signed with the Rangers.

Bergevin, in an interview a few days ago, was asked about Harris and said "if he decides he likes Boston or New York and prefers to play for the Bruins or Rangers, there's not much we can do about it." It kind of gave the impression he wasn't confident in signing him and that the team suspected he had an alternative destination in mind. It does seem that since the pandemic started that certain players prefer to play in Canada or play in the US. Bergevin also seemed to say that Corey Perry, for example, chose Tampa not for the money or term but because his family was based in the US and the pandemic restrictions made it difficult for them to get into Canada or for travel back and forth to be realistic.

In any case, it sounds like the Habs haven't advanced talks with Harris very much. Most people thought he was ready to step into an NHL line-up last year, and there's clearly an opportunity for him to become top 4 on the Habs D almost right away. So it was a bit surprising to see him renege on that opportunity and play out his last year in college.

Yeah, the feeling i got was that the habs were ready to give him a shot with the big club if he went pro this summer. Now it is possible that he just really wants to finish his degree but reading between the lines the team doesnt seem confident they can resign him. Its a shame because he's a guy I have really liked for a while and is one of our most developed players outside the nhl.

Speaking of Perry, point production really dropped off this year (like 3 points in 18 games or something this year).  He could still bounce back but walking away from a 2 year deal from him this summer doesnt look like the worst choice in hindsight. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Once you draft a player, there are different statutes on how long you retain that player's rights. For US college players, I believe they become UFA's if they are older than 20 and go unsigned for more than 30 days after finishing their college careers OR if they have completed 4 years of college and still haven't been signed. In Harris' case, he's in his 4th year now, and the Habs only have until the end of this season to sign him without losing his rights for nothing. This is what happened with players like Justin Schultz, Jimmy Vesey, Kevin Hayes, Mike Reilly, and others. They were drafted but never signed with the team drafting them and were lost to free agency. Adam Fox is probably the most notable name in recent past, where he was drafted by the Flames and then traded to the Canes and told both those teams he wouldn't play for them and wanted to go to the Rangers. So both those teams traded him and he signed with the Rangers.

Bergevin, in an interview a few days ago, was asked about Harris and said "if he decides he likes Boston or New York and prefers to play for the Bruins or Rangers, there's not much we can do about it." It kind of gave the impression he wasn't confident in signing him and that the team suspected he had an alternative destination in mind. It does seem that since the pandemic started that certain players prefer to play in Canada or play in the US. Bergevin also seemed to say that Corey Perry, for example, chose Tampa not for the money or term but because his family was based in the US and the pandemic restrictions made it difficult for them to get into Canada or for travel back and forth to be realistic.

In any case, it sounds like the Habs haven't advanced talks with Harris very much. Most people thought he was ready to step into an NHL line-up last year, and there's clearly an opportunity for him to become top 4 on the Habs D almost right away. So it was a bit surprising to see him renege on that opportunity and play out his last year in college.

Thank you for that.

That seems disappointing. I never really knew much about him, but it sounds like he was a promising prospect.

I wonder if this is something that will change during future collective bargaining. It seems odd to draft a U.S. college player and they just have the opportunity to say, "No thanks, I am going to finish my degree and go where I please." As far as I understand, in terms of a team's rights to a player, no one else can do this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From The Athletic (paywall):

https://theathletic.com/2973346/2021/11/24/the-best-defenceman-in-the-country-who-is-jordan-harris-the-prospect-the-canadiens-must-do-everything-to-keep/

Harris found himself on the top defence pairing as a freshman at Northeastern. So to say he has the trust and confidence of his coach today would be a massive understatement.

“Right now, Harris is, in my opinion, the best defenceman in the country, and I really believe that,” said Jerry Keefe, who plays Harris between 26 and 30 minutes a game. “I just think he brings an element that he plays 200 feet, he can defend against anyone and he can transition against anyone.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

From The Athletic (paywall):

https://theathletic.com/2973346/2021/11/24/the-best-defenceman-in-the-country-who-is-jordan-harris-the-prospect-the-canadiens-must-do-everything-to-keep/

Harris found himself on the top defence pairing as a freshman at Northeastern. So to say he has the trust and confidence of his coach today would be a massive understatement.

“Right now, Harris is, in my opinion, the best defenceman in the country, and I really believe that,” said Jerry Keefe, who plays Harris between 26 and 30 minutes a game. “I just think he brings an element that he plays 200 feet, he can defend against anyone and he can transition against anyone.”

 

He really has the look of a modern-day NHL defenceman. He can play big minutes in all situations, he moves the puck, he skates decently well, and he can QB a powerplay. Almost feels like some of the guys the Bruins have brought through their system, like Torey Krug or Charlie McAvoy. No telling if he can translate this to the NHL, but he's a guy you really want to bring here. If I'm MB, I'm pulling out what I can to convince him:

- max ELC

- offer to join the team this year and burn an ELC year if he does

- trade Chiarot and possibly Kulak and show Harris that he has the opportunity to not only play games but play in the top 4 if he shows he can

- sit-down with Cole Caufield and Ryan Poehling to have them explain their transition from college to the NHL and/or maybe another American player like Petry who has chosen to stay in Canada and sign a long-term deal here instead of going back to the States.

- attempt to sign his teammate Struble at the same time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

He really has the look of a modern-day NHL defenceman. He can play big minutes in all situations, he moves the puck, he skates decently well, and he can QB a powerplay. Almost feels like some of the guys the Bruins have brought through their system, like Torey Krug or Charlie McAvoy. No telling if he can translate this to the NHL, but he's a guy you really want to bring here. If I'm MB, I'm pulling out what I can to convince him:

- max ELC

- offer to join the team this year and burn an ELC year if he does

- trade Chiarot and possibly Kulak and show Harris that he has the opportunity to not only play games but play in the top 4 if he shows he can

- sit-down with Cole Caufield and Ryan Poehling to have them explain their transition from college to the NHL and/or maybe another American player like Petry who has chosen to stay in Canada and sign a long-term deal here instead of going back to the States.

- attempt to sign his teammate Struble at the same time

Now that’s a GM plan - something visibly lacking in the org. 
One wonders if Harris bails on signing, if there becomes even more political posturing (“I told ya”), for the Habs to reconsider those opting for the USA college route. There’s still plenty of talent in the CHL and Euro leagues to avoid getting nothing for the draft selection - in this case he was 71st overall and who knew he would work out to be this promising 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, habsisme said:

They really should change that rule. It makes it too easy for players who decide to go to college to ditch their draft team. I would add at least a year maybe two

Agreed. Way too easy for US players to dictate where they want to play by the time they're 21 or 22. The rule favors American teams, since most players who dump their draft team are ones wanting to play in the States.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have to wonder how many players would look better if they changed the coach. It's hard to know about the new guys, since we never saw them here under another coach. But I look at this season's version of the Habs and ask myself how many guys have looked better under Ducharme than they did under Julien or other coaches. Chiarot, maybe, looks better this year than last, although I've been more willing to overlook his bad penalties since we're not in games enough for them to cost us. Evans is better this year than last. Petry is worse. Allen is worse. Toffoli is worse. Gallagher is worse. Armia is worse. Suzuki looks about the same. Drouin and Anderson are inconsistent but overall are probably about the same. Lehkonen about the same. But I don't see a bunch of guys who have done anything special or developed or looked better in Ducharme's system. They almost all look worse. I kind of have the feeling that if we got a real coach, we'd look better putting some of these players in a real system. At this point, I wouldn't hire Patrick Roy as a GM, but I wonder if he might not be a good coach to bring in: used to working with youngsters, holds player responsible for their actions, knows on the other hand what it's like to be a star player in Montreal and how to not treat them a a coach, and has more of a system than Ducharme.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Have to wonder how many players would look better if they changed the coach. It's hard to know about the new guys, since we never saw them here under another coach. But I look at this season's version of the Habs and ask myself how many guys have looked better under Ducharme than they did under Julien or other coaches. Chiarot, maybe, looks better this year than last, although I've been more willing to overlook his bad penalties since we're not in games enough for them to cost us. Evans is better this year than last. Petry is worse. Allen is worse. Toffoli is worse. Gallagher is worse. Armia is worse. Suzuki looks about the same. Drouin and Anderson are inconsistent but overall are probably about the same. Lehkonen about the same. But I don't see a bunch of guys who have done anything special or developed or looked better in Ducharme's system. They almost all look worse. I kind of have the feeling that if we got a real coach, we'd look better putting some of these players in a real system. At this point, I wouldn't hire Patrick Roy as a GM, but I wonder if he might not be a good coach to bring in: used to working with youngsters, holds player responsible for their actions, knows on the other hand what it's like to be a star player in Montreal and how to not treat them a a coach, and has more of a system than Ducharme.

You mean he has a system. I don't think anyone other than Douche knows what he is thinking!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Agreed. Way too easy for US players to dictate where they want to play by the time they're 21 or 22. The rule favors American teams, since most players who dump their draft team are ones wanting to play in the States.

6 hours ago, habsisme said:

They really should change that rule. It makes it too easy for players who decide to go to college to ditch their draft team. I would add at least a year maybe two

I support any rule which enables young players to choose where they want to live and start a family etc.  Bettman and his band of owners already have too much power. The player gambles on himself i.e. that he won't sustain a career ending injury and that his play over those 4 years will remain good enough to garner a contract where he wants to play. I admire anyone who stands up for himself

Montreal drafted a player that asked not to be drafted so if a different young man tells Montreal no thanks I don't get upset. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

At this point, I wouldn't hire Patrick Roy as a GM, but I wonder if he might not be a good coach to bring in: used to working with youngsters, holds player responsible for their actions, knows on the other hand what it's like to be a star player in Montreal and how to not treat them a a coach, and has more of a system than Ducharme.

I never thought I'd say it, but yes... I would take Patrick Roy right now. He's a better coach than DD is. And if we kept losing, I'm sure it would be more entertaining.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RCAF48 said:

I support any rule which enables young players to choose where they want to live and start a family etc.  Bettman and his band of owners already have too much power. The player gambles on himself i.e. that he won't sustain a career ending injury and that his play over those 4 years will remain good enough to garner a contract where he wants to play. I admire anyone who stands up for himself

Montreal drafted a player that asked not to be drafted so if a different young man tells Montreal no thanks I don't get upset. 

 

The league has a draft process to distribute players equitably. If you allow players to choose where they want to play, then it disrupts the competitive equilibrium. Why are American players allowed to choose where they want to go but Canadian players can't? I'm not saying I support Bettman by any means, but I don't think anyone believes a league where there's no draft and everyone can just sign wherever they want will allow franchises to have a fair shot at being competitive. No one's forcing Harris to play in the NHL. He can go to Europe or play in another league in North America if he doesn't want to be drafted. You want to play in the NHL, then the way to make the league fair and worthwhile for all cities/teams/fans is to give every team equal opportunity to drafting good players. NHLers can become UFAs by the time they're 26 or 27. They can force their way out as an RFA, as Kotkaniemi did, or by forcing a trade, as Fox did, if they really really wanted to and were good enough to control their demands. There are plenty of other professions where you don't necessarily get to choose where you intern/stage/train or start your career, so I don't see this as being isolated to the NHL and it's temporary control for the drafting team.

In any case, whether you allow players to break free from their draft team or not, it's still not fair for the drafting team and the league should at the very least provide compensation for a player lost. You loose a draft pick that another team signs and you wanted to match, then that team owes you compensation the same way they would if they signed one of your RFAs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...