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Not a very good day for the Habs... missed out on Bean for a reasonable price, missed out on Jones (although apparently he wouldn't come to Canada), missed our on Reinhart. Made the worst pick of the 1st round. Haven't yet made a move to address their massive holes at LD, RD, or center.

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35 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Not a very good day for the Habs... missed out on Bean for a reasonable price, missed out on Jones (although apparently he wouldn't come to Canada), missed our on Reinhart. Made the worst pick of the 1st round. Haven't yet made a move to address their massive holes at LD, RD, or center.

Depressing. See if any UFA will come to Montreal now, with all this hate and negativity. It's like bergebin is trying to single handedly DESTROY the Habs.

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5 hours ago, electron58 said:

Depressing. See if any UFA will come to Montreal now, with all this hate and negativity. It's like bergebin is trying to single handedly DESTROY the Habs.

I don't think drafting Mailloux will change that much in terms of players decisions to sign here. I think most just won't care or won't see it as affecting their own course. I'm more disappointed by his need for PMD and failure to go out and get some of the guys who were available. Bean in particular is a guy I think we could have targeted for two years now and we finally had a chance to go get him for a reasonable price and we missed. Vince Dunn was available in Stl and is apparently still up for grabs in Seattle. He's another easy target to help the D corps. Connor Timmins in Colorado has reportedly been available in the past. Adam Boqvist was clearly available for the right price. Dumba was available last year. Columbus is clearly selling everyone and maybe Werenski could be available. Hamilton is the big UFA prize this year. Yes, we all expect MB to go out and sign someone like David Savard or Nik Hjalmarsson, but he needs to go out and find a player who is already a top 3 or has the potential to get there in the next year or two, especially on the right side.

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4 minutes ago, xxdocxx said:

Elliotte Friedman says he thinks Montreal and Buffalo had big talks yesterday on Jack Eichel. 

That would probably mean Kotkaniemi’s days in Montreal are over…

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51 minutes ago, habsisme said:

yeah if we get Eichel, KK is the obvious choice to go the other way in a package

Methinks draft pic(s) will also go to Buffs.

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10 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

Methinks draft pic(s) will also go to Buffs.

For sure, I don't think they'd be willing to trade Eichel for KK straight up. Not sure I like this though, I'd rather have traded for Reinhart. If BUF really gave him away for Levi and Florida's 1st rounder, I think we could have offered something similar. That would have left us with Suzuki, Reinhart, and Kotkaniemi down the middle, which would be quite nice I think.

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

yeah if we get Eichel, KK is the obvious choice to go the other way in a package

I think there’s alternatives to KK as that may be a stumbling block -  draft choice(s),  prospect and a roster player like Kulak, Chiarot, Evans/Poehling, Lehkonen - I doubt Drouin would be traded that low. 

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20 minutes ago, Shutoutfan said:

Somebody in my sim league said he heard:  2 firsts, k,k , romanov and prospect.

A couple of things to consider:

- Eichel makes 10M a year. Kotkaniemi is younger and will be paid a lot less for the next 2-3 years. It means that at least in the short term, you might be able to pay JK 2-3M and have 7-8M left over to go and find a top pairing D man. If, for example, I could trade a 1st, Romanov, and a prospect to get Zach Werenski, to me the combination of Werenski and JK at a cheaper overall cost is more valuable than Eichel alone for more money and more return assets in the trade.

- Eichel has a neck injury of unknown severity. He may require surgery and he may have permanent disability. There's upside but also risk involved with acquiring him and Buffalo reportedly hasn't made his medical file available.

 

These things limit his value in a trade. From what I've heard, several teams have inquired but the asking price from Buffalo has been unrealistic and thus probably doesn't take into account the above. Reportedly no one wants to offer Buffalo what they're asking for, so it's likely the final price will be lower than what we're hearing now. Buffalo has got top-end young talent on D but needs help at center, so you would guess JK would be the centerpiece in any trade, which is fine, but I do still think he's going to be a lot better in two years than he is now. I don't see an impetus for including Romanov. He's our only younger NHL-ready defenceman right now and we're short on D men. I don't see the Habs including an NHL D man in the deal for this reason. I could see including another good prospect (Struble, Ylonen, Harris, etc.) who isn't quite established yet though. And with Eichel's 10M, I think you'd have to shed some salary the other way. Byron is an obvious salary-dump, but Lehkonen could be a trade chip and Drouin is a wildcard here too. So I could see a trade that works for both teams whereby it's Eichel for a package of Kotkaniemi, Drouin, Harris, and a 1st.

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At the end of the day will KK ever be more than he is now? he is young but his progress is painful to watch some nights. Eichel is a bit older but he is elite now and there is no way he will get traded without his medical condition being checked out by the doctors of the team he is going to no way. I would make a trade for him he would make us better for many years to come KK may or may not one thing I would not do is send Romanov anywhere I think he has the goods to be here a long time too. the other players will be whatever works and perhaps a draft pick or two.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

A couple of things to consider:

- Eichel makes 10M a year. Kotkaniemi is younger and will be paid a lot less for the next 2-3 years. It means that at least in the short term, you might be able to pay JK 2-3M and have 7-8M left over to go and find a top pairing D man. If, for example, I could trade a 1st, Romanov, and a prospect to get Zach Werenski, to me the combination of Werenski and JK at a cheaper overall cost is more valuable than Eichel alone for more money and more return assets in the trade.

- Eichel has a neck injury of unknown severity. He may require surgery and he may have permanent disability. There's upside but also risk involved with acquiring him and Buffalo reportedly hasn't made his medical file available.

 

These things limit his value in a trade. From what I've heard, several teams have inquired but the asking price from Buffalo has been unrealistic and thus probably doesn't take into account the above. Reportedly no one wants to offer Buffalo what they're asking for, so it's likely the final price will be lower than what we're hearing now. Buffalo has got top-end young talent on D but needs help at center, so you would guess JK would be the centerpiece in any trade, which is fine, but I do still think he's going to be a lot better in two years than he is now. I don't see an impetus for including Romanov. He's our only younger NHL-ready defenceman right now and we're short on D men. I don't see the Habs including an NHL D man in the deal for this reason. I could see including another good prospect (Struble, Ylonen, Harris, etc.) who isn't quite established yet though. And with Eichel's 10M, I think you'd have to shed some salary the other way. Byron is an obvious salary-dump, but Lehkonen could be a trade chip and Drouin is a wildcard here too. So I could see a trade that works for both teams whereby it's Eichel for a package of Kotkaniemi, Drouin, Harris, and a 1st.

*Sigh* Looking at the last 10 or so Stanley Cup champions the one thing they all have in common is they drafted and developed a core group of players together and then added bits around them to support them. Once they established that core of players they did not fiddle with them. Such an approach is the best one in the cap world and although it does not always work, (I am looking at you Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo) it has been the template for most of the last 10 years or so.

Montreal has been following that approach for the last few years and it finally paid off with an appearance in the Stanley Cup final, when almost half of that core us still under 24. Why would you want to start fiddling with it now. Yes I know that Eichel is an elite talent but that is not always enough, as Edmonton and Toronto have been demonstrating for quite some time.

Added to that is Eichel's neck injury. They can be unpredictable. Unlike, knees, shoulders, groins and even heads neck injuries can seem OK but old neck injuries can be easily aggravated leaving the player unable to play for weeks, months or forever. 

Montreal is pushing 30 years without a cup and one of the reasons why is they have had this tendency to abandon the patient approach to go for the quick fix, just as the patient approach starts showing signs of paying off. The quick fix never works and they are set back once again and have to start over. I hope this does not wind up being the latest example of that trend.

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52 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

At the end of the day will KK ever be more than he is now? he is young but his progress is painful to watch some nights. Eichel is a bit older but he is elite now and there is no way he will get traded without his medical condition being checked out by the doctors of the team he is going to no way. I would make a trade for him he would make us better for many years to come KK may or may not one thing I would not do is send Romanov anywhere I think he has the goods to be here a long time too. the other players will be whatever works and perhaps a draft pick or two.

 

21 minutes ago, Capital Habs Fan said:

*Sigh* Looking at the last 10 or so Stanley Cup champions the one thing they all have in common is they drafted and developed a core group of players together and then added bits around them to support them. Once they established that core of players they did not fiddle with them. Such an approach is the best one in the cap world and although it does not always work, (I am looking at you Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo) it has been the template for most of the last 10 years or so.

Montreal has been following that approach for the last few years and it finally paid off with an appearance in the Stanley Cup final, when almost half of that core us still under 24. Why would you want to start fiddling with it now. Yes I know that Eichel is an elite talent but that is not always enough, as Edmonton and Toronto have been demonstrating for quite some time.

Added to that is Eichel's neck injury. They can be unpredictable. Unlike, knees, shoulders, groins and even heads neck injuries can seem OK but old neck injuries can be easily aggravated leaving the player unable to play for weeks, months or forever. 

Montreal is pushing 30 years without a cup and one of the reasons why is they have had this tendency to abandon the patient approach to go for the quick fix, just as the patient approach starts showing signs of paying off. The quick fix never works and they are set back once again and have to start over. I hope this does not wind up being the latest example of that trend.

You guys seem to have opposite viewpoints of this. My stance is somewhere in the middle: I would not hesitate to trade JK for Eichel but I think Eichel has hit near-peak and seems to have some injury risk, whereas Kotkaniemi IMO is still rising and clearly has gotten better with time. I think he'll continue to improve as he grows into his body and gets more confidence. I do think you need to go after elite talent when it's available because you need those difference-makers. It's possible to go and find supporting cast wingers and depth players, but finding a top 10 center in the league is extremely hard. Eichel is close to being that, JK is not. My only point would be that no one is paying the Sabres asking price and you have to keep in mind Eichel's injury risk (even if he's not injured badly now, he could be at risk of nerve damage that could end his career or you could trade for him knowing he was going for surgery, would miss 6 months and could have a risk of complications of surgery whereby he never plays again) and his 10M cap hit. Those are factors that make him a lesser trade asset than if he were 22, injury-free, and on a 5M cap hit. Just look at our own players... if Price were making 6M a season, he would have been a highly-tradeable commodity, but no one wants to pay him 10M.

As for the statement that the last 10 Cup winners stuck to a core, I'll say this: I 100% believe you need to draft and develop your core because you need to be able to build your lineup around cheaper talent. You need guys who are thriving while on ELC contracts or guys who signed cheap bridge deals or longer-term deals for discounts before they peaked. Gallagher at 3.75M was a steal. But now that he's got his contract extension he isn't. Pacioretty was a bargain for a long time. Suzuki and JK and Caufield right now are providing good value. It's almost always easier to fit homegrown talent under the cap than to go after free agents, who are older and get overpaid. Or to trade for guys that other teams want to discard (often times because they don't want to pay what they're asking for). All that said, there are multiple ways to build a team and you need to be able to supplement via trade when the opportunity arises. Stl a couple of years ago added Ryan O'Reilly as their #1 center and Brayden Schenn as their #2 and those were key parts of their core. They had added Jay Bouwmeester to their back end. Washington had a core of Ovi and Carlson and Backstrom and so on, but they don't win without Oshie and Eller and so on either. Boston in 2011 relied on a number of acquisitions like Chara, Thomas, Rask, Ryder, Horton, Recchi, Kaberle, etc. They had a few homegrown picks but they largely supplemented this with players they didn't draft themselves. So I think you need a mix of both. I don't think you have great odds of winning if you don't draft and develop well but I think you also need to seize opportunity to get better when you can. Dallas is better with Seguin and came close to winning. SJ benefited from Joe Thornton and was dominant for a long while. Vegas is built around acquisitions and led by the likes of Stone, Pacioretty, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Fleury and they're a perennial Cup threat the past few years. I mentioned Chara in Boston. LA went to a finals with Gretzky. The Rangers won a Cup with Messier. The bottom line for me is that you can go out and find guys like Toffoli and Anderson and Chiarot via trade or signings if you need to, but finding elite talent is hard and if you have a chance to add a star like Eichel, it's hard to pass up, especially when said guy is still in his prime.

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1 hour ago, Capital Habs Fan said:

*Sigh* Looking at the last 10 or so Stanley Cup champions the one thing they all have in common is they drafted and developed a core group of players together and then added bits around them to support them. Once they established that core of players they did not fiddle with them. Such an approach is the best one in the cap world and although it does not always work, (I am looking at you Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo) it has been the template for most of the last 10 years or so.

Montreal has been following that approach for the last few years and it finally paid off with an appearance in the Stanley Cup final, when almost half of that core us still under 24. Why would you want to start fiddling with it now. Yes I know that Eichel is an elite talent but that is not always enough, as Edmonton and Toronto have been demonstrating for quite some time.

Added to that is Eichel's neck injury. They can be unpredictable. Unlike, knees, shoulders, groins and even heads neck injuries can seem OK but old neck injuries can be easily aggravated leaving the player unable to play for weeks, months or forever. 

Montreal is pushing 30 years without a cup and one of the reasons why is they have had this tendency to abandon the patient approach to go for the quick fix, just as the patient approach starts showing signs of paying off. The quick fix never works and they are set back once again and have to start over. I hope this does not wind up being the latest example of that trend.

Jack Eichel is 24 hardly an old man! he could play for another 10 years! KK could have an injury in his next game we just don't know! the fact is that if team doctors find he is fit we are instantly much better with Eichel compared to potentially better with KK or perhaps not. if we are going to be contenders while players we already have still have it in them like Tofu Petry Gally and company then the time is now! yes Zuke and CC are awesome and young but we have a solid supporting cast now so I say lets get it done, our biggest issue was scoring last year Eichel goes a long way to fixing that! he is a 60+ point man on a horrible team! imagine him here with some support. I just don't see KK ever getting there now that's just me but I smell bust when it comes to this kid we have had too many of those.

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1 hour ago, booboo_mtl said:

MB has been so painfully inactive thus far that I believe he must be trying to pull off an Eichel type deal or relatively similar.

Painfully inactive is an over exaggeration- what MB did during the expansion draft was brilliant in only losing Cale Fleury while retaining Jake Allen and retaining Drouin/Evans. Drafting Mailloux right or wrong is a total risk/reward decision- that’s not a lame duck move, and we got a bit of center potential in our prospect pool. 
Im disappointed we didn’t get a little more like Jake Bean, and want some additional moves and free agency is about to open up 
 

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yeah i would move KK in a package for Eichel, but there's a limit to what I'm will to give up for 10 million a year injured player. KK, a first, a second, Guhle, maybe another prospect. I'm not giving up young roster players that aren't taking up cap space, it defeats the purpose

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6 minutes ago, habsisme said:

yeah i would move KK in a package for Eichel, but there's a limit to what I'm will to give up for 10 million a year injured player. KK, a first, a second, Guhle, maybe another prospect. I'm not giving up young roster players that aren't taking up cap space, it defeats the purpose

I would make the move too but no Dmen going to Buf we need them here!

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On 7/24/2021 at 3:09 PM, BigTed3 said:

I don't think drafting Mailloux will change that much in terms of players decisions to sign here. I think most just won't care or won't see it as affecting their own course.

   agreed...people will temper their judgments on Mailloux over time and it won't affect players decisions in wanting to come to a Stanley Cup finalist team .... although an egregious unauthorized crime against a woman is not to be dismissed  he was  17 , made a bad choice and appears remorseful and sincere in his quest to learn and become a better person ...he's already gone through months of counselling and the Habs will pick up on that beat ...who doesn't need a second chance and hasn't made a mistake ?

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From Eric Engels :

I know there’s been a lot of buzz about Montreal and Jack Eichel. I’ve got friends asking me every hour about it. Believe the Canadiens have poked around, but have been told they’re not heavily invested in acquiring him. Things can change fast, as always, but not sure they will.

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5 hours ago, arpem-can said:

   agreed...people will temper their judgments on Mailloux over time and it won't affect players decisions in wanting to come to a Stanley Cup finalist team .... although an egregious unauthorized crime against a woman is not to be dismissed  he was  17 , made a bad choice and appears remorseful and sincere in his quest to learn and become a better person ...he's already gone through months of counselling and the Habs will pick up on that beat ...who doesn't need a second chance and hasn't made a mistake ?

I hope you are all correct. Time will tell, but if bergebin doesn't replace Weber & Tatar & get at least a 2nd pairing left D, I don't see how we can compete in our division. Some teams have already improved.  At the moment, we are worse.

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8 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

From Eric Engels :

I know there’s been a lot of buzz about Montreal and Jack Eichel. I’ve got friends asking me every hour about it. Believe the Canadiens have poked around, but have been told they’re not heavily invested in acquiring him. Things can change fast, as always, but not sure they will.

Sensible. I feel like the cost will be way too high. Next year is supposed to be a deep draft, so I'd rather keep those picks instead of sending an absurd package to Buffalo. Losing Kotkaniemi, our 1st rounder in 2022, and probably a bunch of other assets seems like a lot.

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