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Montreal doesnt match Hurricanes Offer Sheet to KK


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15 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Every indication i've read seems to point that this was a SPITE reaction on Waddell's part. He may be trying to sugar coat it a little but the twitter comments in Frencn, and the signing bonus all seem to be directed at MB. Bergevin may ultimately get the last laugh in all this, but so far he has mud on his face IMO.

KK is a guy the Canes most definitely didn't need with their current depth at center and especially not at 6.1 million. In one way i don't want to lose KK, and in another way i'd like this to backfire on Waddell and have it go through. That may be MB's ultimate chance at revenge.

I'm sure whatever happens, other GM's have taken note not to try and poach other teams talent in this way. It was already an iffy thing to try as it was, and this just adds to the "don't go there" list.

I agree that the optics feel this way (spite) but if thats the case, why were they trying to trade for him before the OS? 

Clearly they seem to like JK... im just not sure why.   I mean I like him and Id want him on my team but when you already have that roster of forwards (and especially centres) it seems a bit odd... 

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23 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I agree that the optics feel this way (spite) but if thats the case, why were they trying to trade for him before the OS? 

Clearly they seem to like JK... im just not sure why.   I mean I like him and Id want him on my team but when you already have that roster of forwards (and especially centres) it seems a bit odd... 

I think they were just trying to get a good deal with the threat of the OS. It was always to screw over the habs primarily. If I were them and was going to do that, I would have waited for Suzuki or Caufield 

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https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-rumors-september-3-2021/

Might the Canadiens Use the Kotkaniemi Picks on Hertl?

Ken Warren of the Ottawa Sun wonders if the Montreal Canadiens might use the picks they obtain by not matching the Jesperi Kotkaniemi offer sheet, and try to swing a deal for Hertl? They might need to include both picks plus another asset, but it could be a deal that works.

He writes the Hertl trade talk picked up steam from a Canadiens perspective when the offer sheet was tendered. He writes:

That’s where the 27-year-old Hertl enters the equation. Would those picks (along with another piece or two) be enough to entice the Sharks to think about dealing him away?

source – ‘Wading into the Sharks tank? Tomas Hertl could fill the Senators need for a top centre, if all the pieces fell into place’ Ken Warren – Ottawa Sun – 09/02/2021
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3 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-rumors-september-3-2021/

Might the Canadiens Use the Kotkaniemi Picks on Hertl?

Ken Warren of the Ottawa Sun wonders if the Montreal Canadiens might use the picks they obtain by not matching the Jesperi Kotkaniemi offer sheet, and try to swing a deal for Hertl? They might need to include both picks plus another asset, but it could be a deal that works.

He writes the Hertl trade talk picked up steam from a Canadiens perspective when the offer sheet was tendered. He writes:

That’s where the 27-year-old Hertl enters the equation. Would those picks (along with another piece or two) be enough to entice the Sharks to think about dealing him away?

source – ‘Wading into the Sharks tank? Tomas Hertl could fill the Senators need for a top centre, if all the pieces fell into place’ Ken Warren – Ottawa Sun – 09/02/2021

Interesting option. He's on the last year of a $5.6m deal though. Thats a concern. He's definitely a better player right now than JK but he's also 6 years older.. 

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https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-kotkaniemi-offer-sheet-4-potential-replacements/

After Jesperi Kotkaniemi signed a one-year, $6.1 million offer sheet extended by the Carolina Hurricanes, the Montreal Canadiens find themselves in a quandary. General manager Marc Bergevin can either match the offer and hope Kotkaniemi becomes the center he drafted him to be or let him walk and fill the second-line center hole with someone else, either from within the organization or via a trade. Here is a look at players that Bergevin could use to fill the second-line role if he doesn’t match Carolina’s offer.

Ryan Poehling

Tomas Hertl

Christian Dvorak

Sean Monahan

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https://nhlrumors.com/nhl-news-some-more-fallout-from-the-carolina-hurricanes-jesperi-kotkaniemi-offer-sheet/2021/08/30/

Renaud Lavoie: According to sources the idea of an offer sheet to Jesperi Kotkaniemi came from Carolina Hurricanes owner Tom Dundon and not from GM Don Waddell. Don’t think that would be a surprise to anyone.

Darren Dreger: There were some back in early July who were close to Jesperi Kotkaniemi predicted that he had played his final game with the Montreal Canadiens after he was made a healthy scratch in the Stanley Cup Final.

A trade had seemed like the most likely scenario but the Carolina Hurricanes went with a more entertaining approach to acquiring him.

  • Gord Miller: “I’m being asked about this because of what I said at the time: it was a mistake by Montreal to put Kotkaniemi in the NHL as an 18 year old. All that has happened since—being sent to the AHL, being healthy scratched in the playoffs—flows from the Canadiens rushing his development.”
  • Gord Miller: “This was my argument at the time: Kotkaniemi hadn’t dominated at any level to that point, and generally that’s what you need to do before you play in the NHL. Yes, his Finnish club team was terrible, but the Canadiens could have sent him back on the condition that he be moved.”
  • Derek Neumeier: “I generally lean against rushing 18-year-olds into NHL duty, and Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a good example of why He was fantastic in his draft season and flashed a ton of potential, but his development since then hasn’t progressed as smoothly as it should have.”

Cap Friendly: If the Montreal Canadiens do match the offer sheet they are not allowed to trade Kotkaniemi “for one year from the date that the right of first refusal is executed.”

Puck Pedia: Next offseason either the Carolina Hurricanes or Montreal Canadiens could file for Club Elected salary arbitration for Kotkaniemi and request 85 percent of his current salary. That would come in at $5.185 million. They would retain his rights and wouldn’t have to send him a $6.1 million qualifying offer.

Brian Lawton: “The 1 year offer is really a hard kick to the you know what. It really is what @CanadiensMTL should have done with Aho but they didn’t. They went with the same philosophy the @NHLFlyers did with Weber which didn’t work. Teams can always come up with SB if the $$’s are right.

Now there is nothing to prevent @CanadiensMTL from matching the offer, watching KK for half a year & re-signing him for a lower number that KK can grow into. Of course @Canes could do the same & a player might be more inclined to do that for 1 team over the other!”

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A really good read here: https://www.yardbarker.com/nhl/articles/should_the_canadiens_match_hurricanes_offer_sheet_for_jesperi_kotkaniemi/s1_14825_35778407

A few analysts give good arguments why the team should - and shouldnt - resign JK. 

 

Yesterday i felt like we shouldnt. Today I feel like we should. I wonder how I'll feel tomorrow. :4224:

 

The thing is, we have no idea what sort of discussions MB has had with Kotkaniemi, or other GMs.  Maybe he has a deal in place that will blow us all away. Maybe Kotkaniemi is willing to sign a 6 year deal at $4.5m per.  Who knows.  Definitely interesting to see what MB announces tomorrow. 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

I agree that the optics feel this way (spite) but if thats the case, why were they trying to trade for him before the OS? 

Clearly they seem to like JK... im just not sure why.   I mean I like him and Id want him on my team but when you already have that roster of forwards (and especially centres) it seems a bit odd... 

 

2 hours ago, habsisme said:

I think they were just trying to get a good deal with the threat of the OS. It was always to screw over the habs primarily. If I were them and was going to do that, I would have waited for Suzuki or Caufield 

I'm inclined to believe the talk from Waddell was all fluff. I would love to hear what the offer was if there's any truth to this supposed interest. Maybe they did make an offer and it just might have been laughable. The intent may have been strictly to save face so they could come back and claim they made a fair offer and were rejected, so they decided as an organization to attempt a different method, because they really wanted this kid.

I just don't buy it.

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15 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

 

I'm inclined to believe the talk from Waddell was all fluff. I would love to hear what the offer was if there's any truth to this supposed interest. Maybe they did make an offer and it just might have been laughable. The intent may have been strictly to save face so they could come back and claim they made a fair offer and were rejected, so they decided as an organization to attempt a different method, because they really wanted this kid.

I just don't buy it.

Yeah I doubt we'll ever know (unless this things ends in a deal instead of a match or a no match).

But i know that before the draft, it was a no-brainer they were going to take Svechnikov but they did mention really liking JK.  I dont think anyone actually thought they would take him but I specifically remember their praise for him since i was wishing Svech would fall to us (of course MB would have probably picked Walhstrom then lol!!).

Maybe their Finnish scouts (they have a LOT of Finns on that team) think there's a good fit with him on Aho's wing or something. I dunno.

Definitely a more interesting week in terms of Hockey than i thought we'd see this time last week!!

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, AH64 said:

Fingers crossed we let him walk. We should have drafted Tkachuk and we would not be in this pickle.

everyone critisizing MB but this is the real complaint we should have. We missed on Tkachuk and Hughes. That was the error. He's not REALLY a 3rd overall pick and should have never been

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26 minutes ago, AH64 said:

Fingers crossed we let him walk. We should have drafted Tkachuk and we would not be in this pickle.

 

17 minutes ago, habsisme said:

everyone critisizing MB but this is the real complaint we should have. We missed on Tkachuk and Hughes. That was the error. He's not REALLY a 3rd overall pick and should have never been

I think it was a combination of a few things.
 

1) we drafted positionally rather than BPA, that is obvious.  Even if you were certain JK would be the most dominant player from his draft year - in a few years - he was not BPA at that moment. He was a project.   I dont mind drafting positionally or 'projects' but not 3rd overall.  

2) If you absolutely must draft positionally at that point, then you do your due diligence and let him develop properly. He could have stayed in Finland. He could have gone to the AHL beause of the 1st round clause - but instead we played him in the NHL. He needed  a year or two of dominating at the lower levels. He didnt get that.

The problem is that if we had let him develop as he needed to, we would have had to have bought into the rebuild or reset mode and MB was clearly not prepared to do that. 

 

I still think he could develop and he might still end up being one of the best players from his draft year (maybe not top 3 but certainly top 10) but having to pay him $6.1m at this stage is a hard pill to swallow.

I will also add that i think if we had taken Tkachuk or Hughes neither would have done well here. Both are poor defensively at this point and our coaches would not have given them anywhere near the ice time or responsibilities they've' been given in Vancouver and Ottawa respectively. 

 

 

 


 

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34 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

I think it was a combination of a few things.
 

1) we drafted positionally rather than BPA, that is obvious.  Even if you were certain JK would be the most dominant player from his draft year - in a few years - he was not BPA at that moment. He was a project.   I dont mind drafting positionally or 'projects' but not 3rd overall.  

2) If you absolutely must draft positionally at that point, then you do your due diligence and let him develop properly. He could have stayed in Finland. He could have gone to the AHL beause of the 1st round clause - but instead we played him in the NHL. He needed  a year or two of dominating at the lower levels. He didnt get that.

The problem is that if we had let him develop as he needed to, we would have had to have bought into the rebuild or reset mode and MB was clearly not prepared to do that. 

 

I still think he could develop and he might still end up being one of the best players from his draft year (maybe not top 3 but certainly top 10) but having to pay him $6.1m at this stage is a hard pill to swallow.

I will also add that i think if we had taken Tkachuk or Hughes neither would have done well here. Both are poor defensively at this point and our coaches would not have given them anywhere near the ice time or responsibilities they've' been given in Vancouver and Ottawa respectively. 

 

 

 


 

I am pretty sure Tkachuck would have been fine he seems pretty easy to coach and a guy like Webber would have helped him out as I see them being like minded Hughes would have been a bit more of an issue due to the position he plays. also we really don't know how a player will play on another team till they get there, that's what is going to be interesting about KK with the Canes!

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How players are brought along within an organization plays a huge role IMO. Who's to say Tkachuck would have have had the same success playing for the Habs as he has in Ottawa? Would he have been in our top 6 or on the 4th line with us? Would he have been benched for his defensive play? Those are all legitimate questions when it comes to this teams philosophy as compared to others.

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25 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I am pretty sure Tkachuck would have been fine he seems pretty easy to coach and a guy like Webber would have helped him out as I see them being like minded Hughes would have been a bit more of an issue due to the position he plays. also we really don't know how a player will play on another team till they get there, that's what is going to be interesting about KK with the Canes!

Tkachuk would have endeared himself to the coaches with his physical play but he's really bad defensively.  I think they would have played him on the 4th line & right now he'd be a "gritty bottom 6 winger" - far better defensively but nowhere near the offensive player he's been in ottawa.  But obviously thats just a guess, no way to know.


Meanwhile, i do find it interesting that its been 6 1/2 days since the OS & MB hasnt said a word.  No angry grumbles. No huffing an puffing - nothing.  Thats quite surprising.  It seems to me in the past every GM who has had a player Offer Sheeted has come out & said something (usually not flattering).

He's certainly keeping us guessing!

 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Tkachuk would have endeared himself to the coaches with his physical play but he's really bad defensively.  I think they would have played him on the 4th line & right now he'd be a "gritty bottom 6 winger" - far better defensively but nowhere near the offensive player he's been in ottawa.  But obviously thats just a guess, no way to know.


Meanwhile, i do find it interesting that its been 6 1/2 days since the OS & MB hasnt said a word.  No angry grumbles. No huffing an puffing - nothing.  Thats quite surprising.  It seems to me in the past every GM who has had a player Offer Sheeted has come out & said something (usually not flattering).

He's certainly keeping us guessing!

 

I would think he is busting his but to make a deal.

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Just as a reminder, Dundon himself has stated publicly that it was his idea to go after Kotkaniemi with an offersheet. It's likely Waddell and the Canes showed interest in him already, but the OS seems to have been encouraged from above. Why would the Canes have interest?

1. The Canes are one of the top possession teams in the league. They use advanced stats to help build their roster more than a lot of other teams. JK has pretty great advanced stats, especially for a younger guy.

2. I think Carolina also sees an opportunity here. It's a younger guy who has a strong pedigree and room to grow but who has maybe been under-valued by his own organization (everyone saw him get benched to start the playoffs and in the finals). If you're an opposing GM, it was pretty clear the Habs didn't value JK as much as his numbers and gameplay suggested he should be. So you have to figure Carolina felt they could "buy low" on Kotkaniemi.

3. Carolina has probably been eyeing a way to get back at Montreal for the past couple of years. If JK fails, I would not at all be surprised to see them target Suzuki next year. Maybe the Habs target Necas. The GM's have already pissed each other off, so not like there's anything to lose here.

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Tkachuk would have endeared himself to the coaches with his physical play but he's really bad defensively.  I think they would have played him on the 4th line & right now he'd be a "gritty bottom 6 winger" - far better defensively but nowhere near the offensive player he's been in ottawa.  But obviously thats just a guess, no way to know.


Meanwhile, i do find it interesting that its been 6 1/2 days since the OS & MB hasnt said a word.  No angry grumbles. No huffing an puffing - nothing.  Thats quite surprising.  It seems to me in the past every GM who has had a player Offer Sheeted has come out & said something (usually not flattering).

He's certainly keeping us guessing!

 

I think he's still chewing on the Aho offer sheet.

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6 hours ago, Regis22 said:

https://nhlrumors.com/nhl-news-some-more-fallout-from-the-carolina-hurricanes-jesperi-kotkaniemi-offer-sheet/2021/08/30/

Renaud Lavoie: According to sources the idea of an offer sheet to Jesperi Kotkaniemi came from Carolina Hurricanes owner Tom Dundon and not from GM Don Waddell. Don’t think that would be a surprise to anyone.

Darren Dreger: There were some back in early July who were close to Jesperi Kotkaniemi predicted that he had played his final game with the Montreal Canadiens after he was made a healthy scratch in the Stanley Cup Final.

A trade had seemed like the most likely scenario but the Carolina Hurricanes went with a more entertaining approach to acquiring him.

  • Gord Miller: “I’m being asked about this because of what I said at the time: it was a mistake by Montreal to put Kotkaniemi in the NHL as an 18 year old. All that has happened since—being sent to the AHL, being healthy scratched in the playoffs—flows from the Canadiens rushing his development.”
  • Gord Miller: “This was my argument at the time: Kotkaniemi hadn’t dominated at any level to that point, and generally that’s what you need to do before you play in the NHL. Yes, his Finnish club team was terrible, but the Canadiens could have sent him back on the condition that he be moved.”
  • Derek Neumeier: “I generally lean against rushing 18-year-olds into NHL duty, and Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a good example of why He was fantastic in his draft season and flashed a ton of potential, but his development since then hasn’t progressed as smoothly as it should have.”

Cap Friendly: If the Montreal Canadiens do match the offer sheet they are not allowed to trade Kotkaniemi “for one year from the date that the right of first refusal is executed.”

Puck Pedia: Next offseason either the Carolina Hurricanes or Montreal Canadiens could file for Club Elected salary arbitration for Kotkaniemi and request 85 percent of his current salary. That would come in at $5.185 million. They would retain his rights and wouldn’t have to send him a $6.1 million qualifying offer.

Brian Lawton: “The 1 year offer is really a hard kick to the you know what. It really is what @CanadiensMTL should have done with Aho but they didn’t. They went with the same philosophy the @NHLFlyers did with Weber which didn’t work. Teams can always come up with SB if the $$’s are right.

Now there is nothing to prevent @CanadiensMTL from matching the offer, watching KK for half a year & re-signing him for a lower number that KK can grow into. Of course @Canes could do the same & a player might be more inclined to do that for 1 team over the other!”

No doubt in my mind(as I've said long ago) JK should have spent time in the minors. 

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8 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

1. The Canes are one of the top possession teams in the league. They use advanced stats to help build their roster more than a lot of other teams. JK has pretty great advanced stats, especially for a younger guy.

2. I think Carolina also sees an opportunity here. It's a younger guy who has a strong pedigree and room to grow but who has maybe been under-valued by his own organization (everyone saw him get benched to start the playoffs and in the finals). If you're an opposing GM, it was pretty clear the Habs didn't value JK as much as his numbers and gameplay suggested he should be. So you have to figure Carolina felt they could "buy low" on Kotkaniemi.

3. Carolina has probably been eyeing a way to get back at Montreal for the past couple of years. If JK fails, I would not at all be surprised to see them target Suzuki next year. Maybe the Habs target Necas. The GM's have already pissed each other off, so not like there's anything to lose here.

The Habs fired one of the best advanced stat guys back when they acquired Weber. Subban's advanced metrics were all better than SW. I think, because he was so adament, they canned him.  So yeah.  Habs not a big fan of advanced stats. For sure KK wasn't used to succeed or excel.  The Hurricanes see a huge potential here. What better way to get back at a team, then to poach a player, that that team isn't sure about. If the Habs would have just bit the bullet, and played KK in all situations, they would have had a better read. Now, it's kind of like Russian roulette. 

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1 minute ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, they certainly are waiting 'tll the last hour. Surely they must know if they're going to match or not at this point.

Of course we don't know what could be on the back burner but would seem as long as Bergevin doesn't have a replacement deal in hand  he'll be beating the bushes for a deal  right up to the end ...

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