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Montreal doesnt match Hurricanes Offer Sheet to KK


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25 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

And yet he just made the team better for less money.....

Um no he didn't he made it worse. Dvorak is 4 years older and while he is cheaper he is only a 3rd line center. Basically we just gave up a 1st + 2nd for Victor Rask. WTG MB one of your worst trades ever and there have been many horrible trades in the last 10 years.

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20 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

And yet he just made the team better for less money.....

Doesn't let him off the hook for the draft day embarrassment but it is a small step in the right direction. He acquired the best actual hockey player involved in today's dealings and for less money. I can't fault him for that. JK's potential has been touted for so long that I consider it right up there with good Corsi numbers in predicting actual results. Draft picks after the top ten are basically a lottery and with our scouting dept the top ten can also become a lottery. So, yea I'm not too upset.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Um no he didn't he made it worse. Dvorak is 4 years older and while he is cheaper he is only a 3rd line center. Basically we just gave up a 1st + 2nd for Victor Rask. WTG MB one of your worst trades ever and there have been many horrible trades in the last 10 years.

LOL!

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1 minute ago, RCAF48 said:

Doesn't let him off the hook for the draft day embarrassment but it is a small step in the right direction. He acquired the best actual hockey player involved in today's dealings and for less money. I can't fault him for that. JK's potential has been touted for so long that I consider it right up there with good Corsi numbers in predicting actual results. Draft picks after the top ten are basically a lottery and with our scouting dept the top ten can also become a lottery. So, yea I'm not too upset.

 

 

Same here I have seen Dvorak play he is going to own KK when they play each other! first he will win the face off then when KK falls down Dvorak will skate past him pass on the tape to a winger go to the net and score on a rebound because that is how it is done not with advanced metrics in some office on your computer. metrics are just tools Dvorak actually gets it done. As for the draft day stuff that was stupid but another matter that will one day lead to MB getting the boot. 

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I love this move. They got rid of a player who did not want to be there, and got a better player. Sure, Dvorak is currently a 3rd line center, but is capable of moving up to a 2. Now I would like to see us shore up our defense just a bit more.

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50 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

Same here I have seen Dvorak play he is going to own KK when they play each other! first he will win the face off then when KK falls down Dvorak will skate past him pass on the tape to a winger go to the net and score on a rebound because that is how it is done not with advanced metrics in some office on your computer. metrics are just tools Dvorak actually gets it done. As for the draft day stuff that was stupid but another matter that will one day lead to MB getting the boot. 

That's what we need. Guys who can get it done.

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52 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

Same here I have seen Dvorak play he is going to own KK when they play each other! first he will win the face off then when KK falls down Dvorak will skate past him pass on the tape to a winger go to the net and score on a rebound because that is how it is done not with advanced metrics in some office on your computer. metrics are just tools Dvorak actually gets it done. As for the draft day stuff that was stupid but another matter that will one day lead to MB getting the boot. 

What you're describing sounds like pretty awesome advanced metrics stuff to me. Wins the face-off, maintains possession of the puck, creates a scoring chance, bangs home a rebound. :lol:

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1 hour ago, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

I love this move. They got rid of a player who did not want to be there, and got a better player. Sure, Dvorak is currently a 3rd line center, but is capable of moving up to a 2. Now I would like to see us shore up our defense just a bit more.

Dvorak is a very good #3 and possibly a good #2 - its really hard to assess him fairly after seeing him play in that tire fire in Arizona.  That said, I think there's potential.  Kotkaniemi still looked shaky to me at pretty much everything.  There'd be flashes of brilliance but then long periods of meh. I am not sure id be confident with him as a #2 yet and I dont think he's as good a #3 as Dvorak, so its a bit of a wash. 

I do still think JK has a higher ceiling but as each year went by im not sure he'd reach it. I think we know what we've got in CD and I understand why the team chose to move on from JK.

The crappiest part for me is that i have a drawing started of JK that im not going to finish now. :4224:

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6 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Dvorak is a very good #3 and possibly a good #2 - its really hard to assess him fairly after seeing him play in that tire fire in Arizona.  That said, I think there's potential.  Kotkaniemi still looked shaky to me at pretty much everything.  There'd be flashes of brilliance but then long periods of meh. I am not sure id be confident with him as a #2 yet and I dont think he's as good a #3 as Dvorak, so its a bit of a wash. 

I do still think JK has a higher ceiling but as each year went by im not sure he'd reach it. I think we know what we've got in RD and I understand why the team chose to move on from JK.

The crappiest part for me is that i have a drawing started of JK that im not going to finish now. :4224:

What is RD supposed to stand for?

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5 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Nope. I'm fully behind not retaliating and playing those shitty little games on Twitter, kudos to everyone involved for keeping this professional. If the Hurricanes want to be represented this way publicly, which they clearly do, that's fine and their prerogative. I'm happy we didn't take the bait.

Agreed

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5 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Nope. I'm fully behind not retaliating and playing those shitty little games on Twitter, kudos to everyone involved for keeping this professional. If the Hurricanes want to be represented this way publicly, which they clearly do, that's fine and their prerogative. I'm happy we didn't take the bait.

The Cane's organization is annoying in their "we're a bunch of jerks" branding.  Maybe thats why they have less followers than me on instagram. :4224:

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It will be interesting to hear what Bergevin has to say about this, but it appears he made the best of a bad situation. Signing KK you 6.1 million was not really an option if you consider he would have set a precedent for future contracts that would have broke the bank. Of the 3 teams involved in the deals today I think the Canadians walked away with the best result. 

We  get Dvorak for 4.5 mil per year for 4 years and a third round pick to add to our boat load of picks at this years draft. Going into this season it would appear we have a player showing more potential than KK at this time for 25% less of his salary and will be able to keep our salary structure in tact,

Carolina is paying 6.1 mil this year and next if they choose to resign him for a player that has promise, but who only scored 5 goals in the regular season and was in the minors the year before,  There is a lot of risk here and they are going to face some cap issues soon if they are not careful.

Finally Arizona gets a first round pick this year and a 2nd rounder in 2024. Arizona may or may not end up with NHL players in a couple of years when they are more likely playing in Houston (Quebec would have  been nice) as their days in Arizona appear to be numbered.

We still retain our picks this year and in effect add a third on top of Dvorak while Carolina is out a 1st rounder, a 3rd rounder and 6.1 million dollars for KK (Pretty expensive if you ask me) . They may have gotten the player they wanted but it remains to be seen if they got the best player in the deal.

I believe it was Sam Pollack who said the team that wins the trade is the team that gets the best player. Only time will tell how this works out over the years, but for today I think Bergevin walked away with a huge win.

I liked KK but he clearly had some issues with what was happening here and had some prolonged slumps. Dvorak is a very good centre who should only get better playing with the talented forwards we have. I think we have improved our forwards on a team that went to the cup finals last year. For me the biggest  question will be our defense. I am looking forward to the season and believe KK returns to Montreal October 21st. It should be a fun night.

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15 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

And yet he just made the team better for less money.....

There is no scenario where losing Kotkaniemi for Dvorak improves us

 

14 hours ago, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

I love this move. They got rid of a player who did not want to be there, and got a better player. Sure, Dvorak is currently a 3rd line center, but is capable of moving up to a 2. Now I would like to see us shore up our defense just a bit more.

They ran a young player out of town through mismanagement, devaluing and misusing him.   Dvorak is and will only ever be a 3rd line center ... he's 25 and realistically has hit his cieling. 

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42 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

There is no scenario where losing Kotkaniemi for Dvorak improves us

 

They ran a young player out of town through mismanagement, devaluing and misusing him.   Dvorak is and will only ever be a 3rd line center ... he's 25 and realistically has hit his cieling. 

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/analysis/2021/9/5/22657791/christian-dvorak-analysis-what-can-we-expect-in-montreal-canadiens-lineup-offence-power-play-stats

t’s easy to say that they’re giving up and that the team didn’t develop the young Finn properly, and that can be true. It can also be true that with their current core and roster situation, that opting for a stable option down the middle who can slot into any role was the right call. Losing a player you took a risk on at third overall stings, especially for a club that has struggled to produce top-end NHL talent with its picks, but the team also isn’t in a position to gamble $6.1 million in cap space on this season — and possibly next — with the hope it all works out in their favour.

Dvorak isn’t going to be the flashiest of players, but he had plenty of experience playing big minutes for the Coyotes, mainly as a guy taking a hefty dose of their defensive zone starts. At his peak, he thrived with a pair of volume-shooting wingers in Taylor Hall and Conor Garland. For Habs fans, that should make a lot of people very happy as Brendan Gallagher fits that role perfectly. Dvorak isn’t going to produce the same shutdown, defensive results as Danault, but offensively he should be a step up, and fairly seamlessly integrate with Gallagher in a top-six role. If the plan is to use him in those big minutes and defensive zone starts, the Habs will have to shuffle through their other wingers to find a fit, and Artturi Lehkonen might find a spot on that line as well.

Last season showed that Dvorak has made himself into a strong power-play option, something Danault struggled to do despite plenty of minutes, and that gives Montreal a true secondary centre threat on the man advantage.

His ability to find a home in the slot and in front of the net, and cashing in with regularity, should help to bring a new wrinkle to a Canadiens power play that has severely underachieved for the past two-and-a-half years. We know that Dvorak does produce better with shot-generating wingers, and with it being the power play he should see time with Mike Hoffman and Cole Caufield as well. It’s not a guaranteed cure-all, but it’s adding a piece that should push the Habs in the direction they need to go to.

Dvorak helps fill an immediate void in the Canadiens’ lineup, slotting in as the other top-six centre with Nick Suzuki. His offensive numbers aren’t mindblowing, but he should find it pretty easy to meld into the lineup with the full plate of options on the wing, and have a good shot at rediscovering his game from two years ago.

Perhaps unfairly, his entire tenure in Montreal will be judged against Jesperi Kotkaniemi’s in Carolina due to the circumstances surrounding his trade from Arizona, and Danault’s in Los Angeles at the same time. Dvorak should stabilize the top six while bringing some much-needed punch to the second wave on the power play, something Montreal wasn’t sure Kotkaniemi could do. All in all, Marc Bergevin found himself the piece he’s needed since the off-season began, and if Dvorak has the bounce-back season some people expect, then this trade can be seen a positive one.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

There is no scenario where losing Kotkaniemi for Dvorak improves us

 

They ran a young player out of town through mismanagement, devaluing and misusing him.   Dvorak is and will only ever be a 3rd line center ... he's 25 and realistically has hit his cieling. 

Yeah ok. Lets revisit this at the end of the season! the scenario where Dvorak improves us is when KK continues to float around only showing flashes of his supposed talent. Dvorak is more than a third line center and you will soon see it on the ice with a better team with a much better lineup and a town where hockey matters! If I am wrong at the end of the year I will be the first to admit it.

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At the same time Waddell confirms that Kotkaniemi won't be playing center for Carolina but they'll use him as LW. Looks like they're pretty confident in his abilities indeed :lol:

 

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8 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

 

At the same time Waddell confirms that Kotkaniemi won't be playing center for Carolina but they'll use him as LW. Looks like they're pretty confident in his abilities indeed :lol:

 

Lol! I read that too. yep left wing to start that should be great for his development! 

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

They ran a young player out of town through mismanagement, devaluing and misusing him.

I think he ran himself out of town through indifferent play and pettiness over not being treated as the super star he imagined himself to be. If he had sucked it up and worked on quietly improving his game like Suzuki, Evans and Poehling have he would still be a Montreal Canadien. Hopefully he matures and improves his skating to the point that he becomes a reasonable top six forward in the future. Since he blamed Montreal management for his struggles and management did not yet trust him to show up each game there was no future for him here. I wish him no ill will but I will not grieve over his departure.

Carolina paid 6.1 million plus a 1st rounder & a 3rd rounder for his five regular season goals so I would suggest Montreal did a dismal job in devaluing him.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

They ran a young player out of town through mismanagement, devaluing and misusing him.   Dvorak is and will only ever be a 3rd line center ... he's 25 and realistically has hit his cieling. 

    What happened is Carolina in a 'spite' move offered him ridiculous money  he couldn't refuse . If that doesn't happen KK would be playing on the Habs next year on a bridge contract in the $ 3 million range for 2 or 3 years ( nobody on these boards is privy to what really happened between Carolina and his agent )...Montreal didn't "run him out of town they wanted to keep him  ....when KK struggled they sent him to Laval and his game improved which in hindsight almost everyone agrees was the right move in for his career ...does anyone see the Canes sending this $6 million kid down to the AHL to work on his game ?..the only criticism is that he started with the big club at such a young age ( he's not the first ) but he played well enough to make a team in need of a centre ...If Montreal has mismanaged or devalued him so badly why then has Carolina " coveted " him since he was drafted and why again was Carolina even still interested if he been misused so badly  ? ...I hope he doesn't get booed when he comes back to Montreal but that's probably asking too much ..I think Bergevin has come out of this about as well as can be expected and in the end it might be Carolina with egg on their face if KK doesn't overcome his inconsistency  . Dvorak will be a steadier player for us for 4 more years who at 25 hasn't exactly  "hit his ceiling " after playing in the desert for 5 years .

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I like Dvorak and I think he's better than KK RIGHT NOW. In the future who knows, but Dvorak is a 2-3 center who isn't getting any better realistically. KK still has the chance to improve. On aggregate I think Montreal loses a little overall but it was the best thing to do given the offersheet 

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