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Montreal doesnt match Hurricanes Offer Sheet to KK


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3 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

I think he ran himself out of town through indifferent play and pettiness over not being treated as the super star he imagined himself to be. If he had sucked it up and worked on quietly improving his game like Suzuki, Evans and Poehling have he would still be a Montreal Canadien. Hopefully he matures and improves his skating to the point that he becomes a reasonable top six forward in the future. Since he blamed Montreal management for his struggles and management did not yet trust him to show up each game there was no future for him here. I wish him no ill will but I will not grieve over his departure.

Carolina paid 6.1 million plus a 1st rounder & a 3rd rounder for his five regular season goals so I would suggest Montreal did a dismal job in devaluing him.

I don't think he ran himself out of town, he may have priced himself out of town but that is a different story. Read what JK had to say on his Instagram account about leaving Montreal. The kid is a class act right to the end, O wish him ell and hope he has a long and successful career and maybe one day that leads him back to Montreal.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTb_QTBjgAL/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=loading

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9 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 I see in an interview with TSN that Waddell said revenge had nothing to do with offering KK an OS ....nice try wad ...Hab fans are not forgetting the $ 20 plus $15 signing bonus nor the quoting of Bergevin verbatim .

I know

Big losers: Canes

Small losers: Habs

Big winner: KK

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55 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 I see in an interview with TSN that Waddell said revenge had nothing to do with offering KK an OS ....nice try wad ...Hab fans are not forgetting the $ 20 plus $15 signing bonus nor the quoting of Bergevin verbatim .

I wouldnt be surprised at all if they were interested in him - they clearly have a lot of interest in Finnish players - but yeah, the way it was put together, and subsequently played up on social media etc, there's a whole lot of pettiness going on. 

46 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I know

Big losers: Canes

Small losers: Habs

Big winner: KK

Interestingly, i think that JK may be a loser in the long run.

Lets say he had taken the $2.5m bridge (2 years) Mb was purportedly offering him.  Thats $4m.  He gets pretty near guaranteed 2nd line centre minutes.  He has 2 years to really prove his worth & if he does, he probably gets a substantial increase.

Instead, he signs for $6m (1 year). He apparently has a multi year lower cap hit deal in place with the canes but thats speculation so lets assume he doesnt.  Waddell has already said he will likely play wing.  Wings arent as valued as centres.  He may not make the top 2 lines. There's a decent chance he makes far less in subsequent deals than he would have if he had stayed here & become a true top 2 centre.

We'll never know but i could see this being a bad move for JK in the long run. 

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Is he responsible enough to play wing ? 
 

hey if he goes on

and becomes successful

it looks like crap on Montreal . they don’t know how to draft , develop or identify a players strengths and use them

to their advantage. Time will tell 

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11 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I wouldnt be surprised at all if they were interested in him - they clearly have a lot of interest in Finnish players - but yeah, the way it was put together, and subsequently played up on social media etc, there's a whole lot of pettiness going on. 

Interestingly, i think that JK may be a loser in the long run.

Lets say he had taken the $2.5m bridge (2 years) Mb was purportedly offering him.  Thats $4m.  He gets pretty near guaranteed 2nd line centre minutes.  He has 2 years to really prove his worth & if he does, he probably gets a substantial increase.

Instead, he signs for $6m (1 year). He apparently has a multi year lower cap hit deal in place with the canes but thats speculation so lets assume he doesnt.  Waddell has already said he will likely play wing.  Wings arent as valued as centres.  He may not make the top 2 lines. There's a decent chance he makes far less in subsequent deals than he would have if he had stayed here & become a true top 2 centre.

We'll never know but i could see this being a bad move for JK in the long run. 

You're right in the long run he may have made an error but you gotta take the money now. Aside for the $20 singing bonus I would do everything KK did. He's now set himself up for life and worst case scenario he's a free agent at 22

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6 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

I think he ran himself out of town through indifferent play and pettiness over not being treated as the super star he imagined himself to be. If he had sucked it up and worked on quietly improving his game like Suzuki, Evans and Poehling have he would still be a Montreal Canadien. Hopefully he matures and improves his skating to the point that he becomes a reasonable top six forward in the future. Since he blamed Montreal management for his struggles and management did not yet trust him to show up each game there was no future for him here. I wish him no ill will but I will not grieve over his departure.

Carolina paid 6.1 million plus a 1st rounder & a 3rd rounder for his five regular season goals so I would suggest Montreal did a dismal job in devaluing him.

Suzuki had a 20-25 game streak where he got no points, or at best 1-2 Assists total and Habs management just kept throwing him out there with the best wingers ... so yeah, no it wasn't Kotkaniemi's indifferent play it was managements bizarre treatment of its young players

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3 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I don't think he ran himself out of town, he may have priced himself out of town but that is a different story. Read what JK had to say on his Instagram account about leaving Montreal. The kid is a class act right to the end, O wish him ell and hope he has a long and successful career and maybe one day that leads him back to Montreal.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTb_QTBjgAL/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=loading

Yup KK wanted to be here, but the Habs through their actions and inactions showed him they didn't value him at all

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20 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Yup KK wanted to be here, but the Habs through their actions and inactions showed him they didn't value him at all

I don't think the Habs didn't value him, I think the price was just too high. There were underlying circumstances but I think the price was the deciding factor on both sides. KK wasn't turning down 6.1 mil (who would) and Montreal wasn't about to pay him 6.1 mil even though they wanted to keep him.

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9 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

Carolina paid 6.1 million plus a 1st rounder & a 3rd rounder for his five regular season goals so I would suggest Montreal did a dismal job in devaluing him.

Excellent point but many here say the Canes paid for a very high ceiling and 4 extra years of youth vs Dvorak who will last 1 year, fall off a cliff and under deliver. Canes will convert KK to left wing where he will supposedly flourish 

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Suzuki had a 20-25 game streak where he got no points, or at best 1-2 Assists total and Habs management just kept throwing him out there with the best wingers ... so yeah, no it wasn't Kotkaniemi's indifferent play it was managements bizarre treatment of its young players

Even when Suzuki was not getting points he was still playing well and solid on D when KK was off he was often out of position and missing his guys on backcheck big difference between the two players. KK had 5 goals this season anyway you slice it that's pretty bad same for Drouin he has got to step it up!

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28 minutes ago, claremont said:

Excellent point but many here say the Canes paid for a very high ceiling and 4 extra years of youth vs Dvorak who will last 1 year, fall off a cliff and under deliver. Canes will convert KK to left wing where he will supposedly flourish 

Lol that is funny! never yet have I heard anyone with any credibility say that about Dvorak!

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1 hour ago, claremont said:

Excellent point but many here say the Canes paid for a very high ceiling and 4 extra years of youth vs Dvorak who will last 1 year, fall off a cliff and under deliver. Canes will convert KK to left wing where he will supposedly flourish 

idk why people assume dvorak is done at 25... common guys a little faith. 

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10 hours ago, claremont said:

Excellent point but many here say the Canes paid for a very high ceiling and 4 extra years of youth vs Dvorak who will last 1 year, fall off a cliff and under deliver. Canes will convert KK to left wing where he will supposedly flourish 

- If the Canes had tried to trade straight up for a player like Kotkaniemi, they would have had to give up more than a (late) 1st and a 3rd. Look around the league at other players from his draft year +/- a year... Bouchard, Wahlstrom, Zegras, Dobson, Thomas, etc. most of whom are less established than JK and tell me whether those teams are giving those players up for similar compensation. The price they paid was not high. And yes, they are paying for potential here. If JK was already a 30-goal scorer, they'd have paid way more, but you want to find elite top 6 centers, you have to gamble a bit on them as picks or prospects. Very hard to get one as a bargain.

- The 6.1M is for one year. This is not a long-term deal, and Carolina owns his rights thereafter. If he plays like a top 6 center, they're not overpaying him. If he doesn't play like a top 6 center, they'll be able to re-sign him for 3 or 4M on a multi-year deal next summer and the overall cost of the term will be fair too.

- Not predicting that Dvorak will fall off a cliff, just stated that several other players with similar advanced stats to him at age 25-26 had one or two good years and fell off a cliff in terms of not being able to maintain production. I actually think Dvorak should have a good season this year, probably his best as a pro. And after that, I think he'll be a serviceable 3C (and 2C in a pinch). I just don't expect him to score more than 15-20 goals per season or get more than 40-50 points per year on average. It doesn't mean he'll drop out of the NHL. He may end up being better than JK, but JK has the higher ceiling here.

- I think JK may struggle in Carolina in year one. He had a much better chance of flourishing in Mtl as a 2C. If he's a 2LW or 3LW in Carolina, he'll find it harder to get traction, consistent linemates, PP time, etc. There will be an adjustment there. I'd put odds on Dvorak having the better year next year.

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13 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Suzuki had a 20-25 game streak where he got no points, or at best 1-2 Assists total and Habs management just kept throwing him out there with the best wingers ... so yeah, no it wasn't Kotkaniemi's indifferent play it was managements bizarre treatment of its young players

You're right!  I remember, that that was mentioned at the time.  The question is, why?

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10 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

Lol that is funny! never yet have I heard anyone with any credibility say that about Dvorak!

Where do people come up with this!?  Dvorak IS a solid player. He will easily replace Danault with a greater upside. He still has a higher ceiling, and will begin to realize it this year.  The guy is a complete player and will be trusted in ALL situations.

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16 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Where do people come up with this!?  Dvorak IS a solid player. He will easily replace Danault with a greater upside. He still has a higher ceiling, and will begin to realize it this year.  The guy is a complete player and will be trusted in ALL situations.

   Yeah it leaves me scratching my head a little ...Dvorak already averages 18 goals a year and 21 assists pretty much a .5  points a game guy over his 5 year career in a wasteland of uncertainty with a revolving door in Arizona  .  He is about to walk into his prime years as a hockey player into the best fan atmosphere in hockey . I think Montreal is going to like this player a lot . 

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- If the Canes had tried to trade straight up for a player like Kotkaniemi, they would have had to give up more than a (late) 1st and a 3rd. Look around the league at other players from his draft year +/- a year... Bouchard, Wahlstrom, Zegras, Dobson, Thomas, etc. most of whom are less established than JK and tell me whether those teams are giving those players up for similar compensation. The price they paid was not high. And yes, they are paying for potential here. If JK was already a 30-goal scorer, they'd have paid way more, but you want to find elite top 6 centers, you have to gamble a bit on them as picks or prospects. Very hard to get one as a bargain.

Kotkaniemi at $2m is worth more than a 1st and a 3rd, yes.  (and while i agree its likely to be a late 1st, its not a certainty).   Kotkaneimi at $6m at this stage may well not be worth more than that. Clearly one GM didnt think so and my who were polled said they would walk away from him. 

4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- The 6.1M is for one year. This is not a long-term deal, and Carolina owns his rights thereafter. If he plays like a top 6 center, they're not overpaying him. If he doesn't play like a top 6 center, they'll be able to re-sign him for 3 or 4M on a multi-year deal next summer and the overall cost of the term will be fair too.

Thats an assumption though. We have no idea where JK's head's at and what his expectations are. I would *think* he probably will sign a more respectable $3.5-4.5m next year if he doesnt break out but who knows.  He'll have to be qualified at $6.1 (or at 5.1 if they choose to use that one-time option). 

 

4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- Not predicting that Dvorak will fall off a cliff, just stated that several other players with similar advanced stats to him at age 25-26 had one or two good years and fell off a cliff in terms of not being able to maintain production. I actually think Dvorak should have a good season this year, probably his best as a pro. And after that, I think he'll be a serviceable 3C (and 2C in a pinch). I just don't expect him to score more than 15-20 goals per season or get more than 40-50 points per year on average. It doesn't mean he'll drop out of the NHL. He may end up being better than JK, but JK has the higher ceiling here.

Ive been watching Dvorak closely since Domi mentioned he thought he was one of the most underrated players in the league.  He reminds me a lot of Plekanec so we shall see.  History says you're probably right but i think he'll be good value for the full term of the contract.  I certainly *hope* he's supplanted as our #2 because that means our team is better than if we run him as our second best centre. 

 

4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- I think JK may struggle in Carolina in year one. He had a much better chance of flourishing in Mtl as a 2C. If he's a 2LW or 3LW in Carolina, he'll find it harder to get traction, consistent linemates, PP time, etc. There will be an adjustment there. I'd put odds on Dvorak having the better year next year.

I also think it might be a tricky year for JK. I do like the kid and wanted to see him succeed here but it will be interesting to see how he does going forward. 

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3 hours ago, arpem-can said:

   Yeah it leaves me scratching my head a little ...Dvorak already averages 18 goals a year and 21 assists pretty much a .5  points a game guy over his 5 year career in a wasteland of uncertainty with a revolving door in Arizona  .  He is about to walk into his prime years as a hockey player into the best fan atmosphere in hockey . I think Montreal is going to like this player a lot . 

Yep this is what I have been trying to say, the guy is quite good on a horrible team in the middle of nowhere that mostly has no idea they even have a hockey team! they pretty much have to pay people to go to the games. put him in Montreal where hockey is the #1 sport bar none and he will be a star just because he is on the team and you can bet he is going to have several good years due to his age and what everyone who knows him says about how much of a competitor he is KK on the other hand has been in Mtl now he is going where there are a lot more things to do.

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4 hours ago, electron58 said:

Where do people come up with this!?  Dvorak IS a solid player. He will easily replace Danault with a greater upside. He still has a higher ceiling, and will begin to realize it this year.  The guy is a complete player and will be trusted in ALL situations.

There's the problem, you keep comparing Danault to Dvorak but no one ever thought of Danault as more than a 3rd line center. He played 1st line as a result of our lack of depth up the middle and he left because he knew NS and JK were going to be better options. If Dvorak is a slightly more offensive Danault that still only makes him a 3C with the ability to play 2C in a pinch. The problem is we need someone who is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade on Danault which JK was more likely to be. I understand the reason for not matching cause JK right now is not a 6 Mil a year player (He is my favorite player right now) however Dvorak will never be a 6 mil player. That's the issue here, we went 20+ years waiting for a 1C and more like 30 years waiting for 2 top 6 centers, why give up on achieving that when you potentially have a 1a and 1b right in front of you and all it would cost is 1 overpaid year.

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18 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

There's the problem, you keep comparing Danault to Dvorak but no one ever thought of Danault as more than a 3rd line center. He played 1st line as a result of our lack of depth up the middle and he left because he knew NS and JK were going to be better options. If Dvorak is a slightly more offensive Danault that still only makes him a 3C with the ability to play 2C in a pinch. The problem is we need someone who is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade on Danault which JK was more likely to be. I understand the reason for not matching cause JK right now is not a 6 Mil a year player (He is my favorite player right now) however Dvorak will never be a 6 mil player. That's the issue here, we went 20+ years waiting for a 1C and more like 30 years waiting for 2 top 6 centers, why give up on achieving that when you potentially have a 1a and 1b right in front of you and all it would cost is 1 overpaid year.

its not just 1 overpaid year though, we could have lost him for nothing or keep paying him 6, unless KK wanted to multi-year deal but we would be negotiating with that hanging over our heads

I think Dvorak is already a 5-5.5 million dollar player who is on a very nice contract 

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14 minutes ago, habsisme said:

its not just 1 overpaid year though, we could have lost him for nothing or keep paying him 6, unless KK wanted to multi-year deal but we would be negotiating with that hanging over our heads

I think Dvorak is already a 5-5.5 million dollar player who is on a very nice contract 

We could also have KK at 5.185 by electing arbitration in the first window.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

There's the problem, you keep comparing Danault to Dvorak but no one ever thought of Danault as more than a 3rd line center. He played 1st line as a result of our lack of depth up the middle and he left because he knew NS and JK were going to be better options. If Dvorak is a slightly more offensive Danault that still only makes him a 3C with the ability to play 2C in a pinch. The problem is we need someone who is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade on Danault which JK was more likely to be. I understand the reason for not matching cause JK right now is not a 6 Mil a year player (He is my favorite player right now) however Dvorak will never be a 6 mil player. That's the issue here, we went 20+ years waiting for a 1C and more like 30 years waiting for 2 top 6 centers, why give up on achieving that when you potentially have a 1a and 1b right in front of you and all it would cost is 1 overpaid year.

Putting aside your bias for KK ( as you state he was your favorite Hab ) please explain why you think JK would more likely to be a SIGNIFICANT upgrade on Danault and  Dvorak is only a 3 C with the ability to play 2 C in a pinch . Appears there are people in the hockey world who feel different 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canadiens-bergevin-may-get-last-laugh-losing-kotkaniemi-offer-sheet/

 

Dvorak’s a player we’ve been digging into since well before his acquisition was made by the Canadiens and well before we reported earlier this week that he was their primary target to replace Kotkaniemi. The impetus for that was when former teammate Max Domi (who was traded to the Canadiens for another former third-overall pick, Alex Galchenyuk) told us, shortly after arriving in Montreal in 2018, he felt Dvorak was among the most underrated players in the league.

Domi had played alongside Dvorak and watched him score 109 points with the OHL’s London Knights in 2014-15. He made the jump with the Coyotes while Dvorak stayed behind and put up 52 goals and 121 points in 59 games the following season, and then he revelled in the opportunity to once again play with Dvorak when he graduated to the NHL for the 2016-17 season.

What we’ve seen since Domi told us about him is a strong, two-way centre who’s effective in the slot on the power play and capable as a penalty killer.

Dvorak has also proven to be nearly as efficient scoring goals as he has been at setting them up—he’s got 67 goals and 79 assists since debuting—and he’s won between 51.4 per cent and 55.3 per cent of his faceoffs in each of his last four seasons.

Sure, the price was steep to acquire Christian Dvorak from the Coyotes, but it was worth it. In the 25-year-old, the Canadiens have gained a versatile player who’s accumulated nearly a half-a-point per game over his first 302 in the NHL and done so on a team lacking the type of talent on the wings the Canadiens currently boast. They’ve given up on the better of their two first-round picks (their own or Carolina’s) in the 2022 Draft and their own second-rounder in 2024 to do it, but they’re also getting a player who’s better than Kotkaniemi is right now.

 

An Eastern Conference executive told us this past Wednesday that he felt Dvorak was unquestionably a second-line centre on a good team and added, “If that guy’s centering your third line, you’re contending for a Stanley Cup.”

A Western-based scout sung the Illinois native’s praises when we touched base with him two hours after Saturday’s news broke.

“I know the player really, really well,” the scout started. “I’ve watched him play a ton over the years. The one thing about him that people probably don’t know is he’s a very competitive, quiet sort of leadership guy. He doesn’t get a lot of credit for that because he’s quiet, but he’s very competitive. He’s not going to play necessarily with tons of physicality, but he’s got a lot of jam, and he’ll go to the net and he’ll take a punch in front of the net if he has to.

“He’s also got really, really good hands. He doesn’t get enough credit for how good his hands are. And lastly, he’s an outstanding kid. I know you hear that about a lot of guys, but he’s a hockey player. He loves the game and he’s a very hard worker.”

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2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yep this is what I have been trying to say, the guy is quite good on a horrible team in the middle of nowhere that mostly has no idea they even have a hockey team! they pretty much have to pay people to go to the games. put him in Montreal where hockey is the #1 sport bar none and he will be a star just because he is on the team and you can bet he is going to have several good years due to his age and what everyone who knows him says about how much of a competitor he is KK on the other hand has been in Mtl now he is going where there are a lot more things to do.

First off, I'll agree with others here who think Dvorak will have a good season here next year. But not sure that his playing on a horrible team means he'll necessarily do better here. A few reasons why:

1. He got 18.5 minutes of ice time per game in Arizona including power play time. That's a decent amount of ice time. To put that in perspective, our top forwards for ice time last year were Suzuki at 18 minutes, Toffoli at 17.5, then Danault at under 17. Kotkaniemi had under 15. So Dvorak would have had more ice time than anyone we had on our roster last year in order to hit the point totals he did. In terms of points produced per ice time at ES, he simply wasn't very good. So I don't think it's a given that he would automatically flourish on a better team. He was getting more opportunity in Arizona and he wouldn't necessarily get the same thing on a deeper roster. If he suddenly got 16.5 minutes, as Danault was getting here, then his point totals would likely drop correspondingly. What I think will save Dvorak next year is that we have a complete lack of depth at center now. I don't see Ducharme giving big minutes to Evans or Poehling, so Dvorak will likely maintain a solid 18+ minutes a night next year, maybe even more. For that reason, I think he'll have a good year next year, but not sure it will hold up if there's better competition at center later on in his contract.

2. Haven't watched enough Coyotes games to know, but apparently Dvorak had a lot of success when partnered with Conor Garland but struggled when pulled apart from him. So is he going to have a player here that he has chemistry with? Is that going to take time to develop?

3. Dvorak had bad advanced stats, but more importantly, he also had bad relative numbers. This wasn't a player like Jeff Petry, who when he came over from Edmonton, was clearly on a bad team but was out-performing his teammates. Edmonton was a lot better with Petry on than with Petry off. Conversely, Arizona actually performed worse with Dvorak on the ice than with him off of it. So hard to say he was being dragged down by a bad roster when he didn't shine on that roster either.

 

My personal projection for Dvorak next year is that he'll hit somewhere around 18-20 goals and 45-48 points. It'll be a decent year for him and I don't think he'll struggle by any means. My issue with Dvorak is not that he's a bad player and as I've said, he's a player I'm happy to have on our team and who fills the vacancy left by Phil Danault. We had a hole at center and he fills that well. My two criticisms have been that his ceiling is not as high as Kotkaniemi's and that we overpaid in the trade relative to what we got back for Kotkaniemi.

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