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Montreal doesnt match Hurricanes Offer Sheet to KK


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10 hours ago, 26NCounting said:

So let me get this straight.....  MTL let KK walk for a ridiculous 6.1 mil contract for a 20 point player who was brutal on face offs and played a very soft defensive game in return they get a 2022 1st and 3rd round pick.  Then they move a first and 2nd for a 4.5 mil center who played on a horrible team with less than legit line mates, who put up more points, has a good face off record and plays both ends of the ice well.  But yet people are complaining???  Are we serious???  This is an absolute fantastic move,  KK didn't want to be here it was a poor draft choice at the time.  He will never be a great center and we will need all the cap space we have available to re sign core players down the road.

 

While I really don't like MB as a GM I will say this was a great move.  You can't toss away the farm to sign a player on potential

I am with you on this.

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16 hours ago, maas_art said:

Interestingly the Canes fans seem to think they have a gem.  The overall feeling is:

- next year he will score around 50 points as a winger.

- the following year (when Trochek most likely leaves as an UFA) he will go up to 70-75 points as their #2 centre.

I mean... it could happen but his stats lines are:

79gp  - 11g 23a - 34pts  
36gp  - 6g 2a  8pts
56gp  5g  15a  20pts

He's a career .36ppg and they think next year he'll be .61 and the following he'll be up to .91 ppg ? This seems kind of wishful... 

I suppose it could happen, but... yup... it does seem wishful.

I am disappointed with our inability to draft and develop top-line talent, but I guess I'm not too sad that we've let Kotkaniemi walk and we've traded for Dvorak. Hopefully Dvorak has an excellent year for us and Kotkaniemi stumbles in his development.

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I suppose it could happen, but... yup... it does seem wishful.

I am disappointed with our inability to draft and develop top-line talent, but I guess I'm not too sad that we've let Kotkaniemi walk and we've traded for Dvorak. Hopefully Dvorak has an excellent year for us and Kotkaniemi stumbles in his development.

It's a good thing Montreal didn't open the vault for Galchenyuk after his 30 goal year ...I don't at that particular time anyone was saying Montreal drafted poorly or wasn't developing their top line talent because he was a rare 3rd overall pick for the Habs like KK ....Most Hab fans were prepared for another few years of KK and were patient with his up-side potential development ....but if we don't cut Chucky loose and get Domi and then Anderson we don't get that mindless blind side across the blue line  pass in overtime against the Leafs and go on to win the series ( those are the things Chucky refused to learn ) ...in the same way we might be talking about it being better move to cut  KK loose as well in the long run ...I thought MB was really smart to keep quiet through this whole process of the OS and the childish 20/15  thing , the quoting Bergevin verbatim and subsequent trolling on social media ..it's almost like he was quietly relieved to put a solid player on the roster instead of another question mark ...and for less cap space 

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I suppose it could happen, but... yup... it does seem wishful.

I am disappointed with our inability to draft and develop top-line talent, but I guess I'm not too sad that we've let Kotkaniemi walk and we've traded for Dvorak. Hopefully Dvorak has an excellent year for us and Kotkaniemi stumbles in his development.

The thing is, we harp about this a lot but when you compare us, 1 on 1 against most teams in the league, we're pretty average.    When you compare us to all 31 other teams, sure we look bad,  but one vs one most teams have hits and misses. 

And while we may have traded guys like Galchenyk or Sergachev, we also got back quality players in return. 

Step back a couple of years, we still have Caufield,  JK (essentially) became Dvorak, Poehling is still with us, Sergachev became Drouin, Juulsen got poached but injuries really derailed his career, Scherbak was a bust... McCarron was a bust.. Galchenyuk led to Domi who led to Anderson so we're still ahead on that one... i mean it isnt spectacular but it isnt horrible either. 

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It is done.

We went to the SCF last year and that was fun regardless that it may not have been accomplished in accordance with the proper use of advanced analytics. Somehow that was more fun, Weber on one leg, Petry with one hand, Byron scoring on his knees, Perry rolling the clock back and S...t...a...a...l moving at glacier speed but doing what the coaches asked of him and getting the job done.  And of course, beating Toronto.......be still my foolish heart:rolleyes:  

In isolation letting JK go and gaining Dvorak made us better on paper so I am looking forward to the season in anticipation of frustrating the naysayers again and making some more noise. Hockey is a game played best with passion, when the puck is dropped anything can happen. (apologies to MB & kinot-2)

Let the games begin.

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37 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

It is done.

We went to the SCF last year and that was fun regardless that it may not have been accomplished in accordance with the proper use of advanced analytics. Somehow that was more fun, Weber on one leg, Petry with one hand, Byron scoring on his knees, Perry rolling the clock back and S...t...a...a...l moving at glacier speed but doing what the coaches asked of him and getting the job done.  And of course, beating Toronto.......be still my foolish heart:rolleyes:  

In isolation letting JK go and gaining Dvorak made us better on paper so I am looking forward to the season in anticipation of frustrating the naysayers again and making some more noise. Hockey is a game played best with passion, when the puck is dropped anything can happen. (apologies to MB & kinot-2)

Let the games begin.

While some of us don't see Dvorak as a clear upgrade we all hope he will be. I think we will make the playoffs this year but it may be a struggle with our D. I expect Suzuki to hit 70+ points and hope Poehling can solidify his spot on the roster. I wanted to keep KK but now I feel like we should close this topic and move forward regardless of how we feel about it. KK is the past and Dvorak is the future whether we like it right now or not. Onward and upward as they say, hopefully exactly how our season plays out. 

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19 hours ago, maas_art said:

The thing is, we harp about this a lot but when you compare us, 1 on 1 against most teams in the league, we're pretty average.    When you compare us to all 31 other teams, sure we look bad,  but one vs one most teams have hits and misses. 

And while we may have traded guys like Galchenyk or Sergachev, we also got back quality players in return. 

Step back a couple of years, we still have Caufield,  JK (essentially) became Dvorak, Poehling is still with us, Sergachev became Drouin, Juulsen got poached but injuries really derailed his career, Scherbak was a bust... McCarron was a bust.. Galchenyuk led to Domi who led to Anderson so we're still ahead on that one... i mean it isnt spectacular but it isnt horrible either. 

Yeah, no doubt the actual data probably suggests we do okay in drafting. I'm pretty sure Ted has posted some more in-depth stuff on drafting previously. I just really really wish we could end up with some game-breaking talent. I mean, I hope Suzuki and Caulfield turn into that, but I suppose it's possible they may just end up being 50-60-point guys instead of 80+.

And I can agree that perhaps Bergevin has done well at turning some of our higher draft picks in other contributing members of the team, but we still haven't been able to acquire game-breaking talent for as long as I can remember. And I feel like when you have the third overall pick and end up with Galchenyuk and now losing Kotkaniemi. That always just feels disappointing.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, no doubt the actual data probably suggests we do okay in drafting. I'm pretty sure Ted has posted some more in-depth stuff on drafting previously. I just really really wish we could end up with some game-breaking talent. I mean, I hope Suzuki and Caulfield turn into that, but I suppose it's possible they may just end up being 50-60-point guys instead of 80+.

And I can agree that perhaps Bergevin has done well at turning some of our higher draft picks in other contributing members of the team, but we still haven't been able to acquire game-breaking talent for as long as I can remember. And I feel like when you have the third overall pick and end up with Galchenyuk and now losing Kotkaniemi. That always just feels disappointing.

For sure. You look at the lightning: Back to back cups - they barely have any of their first rounders playing. Foote only played a handful of games & other than that, only two first rounders... of course those 2 were 1st overall, elite players in Hedman and Stamkos.  It doenst hurt that they got game breaking talents in the 2nd round (Kucherov) and the 3rd round (Point)

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

For sure. You look at the lightning: Back to back cups - they barely have any of their first rounders playing. Foote only played a handful of games & other than that, only two first rounders... of course those 2 were 1st overall, elite players in Hedman and Stamkos.  It doenst hurt that they got game breaking talents in the 2nd round (Kucherov) and the 3rd round (Point)

Yeah, I feel like we really have had only one massive game-changing talent over the last 15-20 years. That was Price. And he was really only peak Price around 2013-2017. Now he's a just your average NHL goaltender. He sure did heat up for a large part of the playoffs, but I doubt he'll be able to put together an entire season like that anymore.

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, no doubt the actual data probably suggests we do okay in drafting. I'm pretty sure Ted has posted some more in-depth stuff on drafting previously. I just really really wish we could end up with some game-breaking talent. I mean, I hope Suzuki and Caulfield turn into that, but I suppose it's possible they may just end up being 50-60-point guys instead of 80+.

And I can agree that perhaps Bergevin has done well at turning some of our higher draft picks in other contributing members of the team, but we still haven't been able to acquire game-breaking talent for as long as I can remember. And I feel like when you have the third overall pick and end up with Galchenyuk and now losing Kotkaniemi. That always just feels disappointing.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that Suzer & CC will be 80+ players,  sooner than later. As for #3 picks, I'm more disappointed with the KK pick, because everything screamed that  Brady was the obvious better choice. A huge failure by bergebin,  and we don't even have to say hindsight is 20/20. It should have been a no brainer,  just like the CC choice. They didn't have to be smart to pick CC. 

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33 minutes ago, electron58 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that Suzer & CC will be 80+ players,  sooner than later. As for #3 picks, I'm more disappointed with the KK pick, because everything screamed that  Brady was the obvious better choice. A huge failure by bergebin,  and we don't even have to say hindsight is 20/20. It should have been a no brainer,  just like the CC choice. They didn't have to be smart to pick CC. 

Interestingly, in Bergevin's presser on saturday someone asked him if he thought he should have drafted JK at 3rd.   Instead of answering it like most us would (that we could have taken Tkachuk or Hughes, or Boqvist or Farabee etc etc) he went off on how maybe he could have drafted down the draft to take JK 5th or 7th but there would be no guarantee that he'd still be available.  In other words, he wasnt (and still isnt) looking at and considering anyone else, they wanted JK and would have traded the 3rd pick for a later 1st if they thuoght they could have gotten him there... 

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

Interestingly, in Bergevin's presser on saturday someone asked him if he thought he should have drafted JK at 3rd.   Instead of answering it like most us would (that we could have taken Tkachuk or Hughes, or Boqvist or Farabee etc etc) he went off on how maybe he could have drafted down the draft to take JK 5th or 7th but there would be no guarantee that he'd still be available.  In other words, he wasnt (and still isnt) looking at and considering anyone else, they wanted JK and would have traded the 3rd pick for a later 1st if they thuoght they could have gotten him there... 

Too bad they didn't make that trade down. They could've lucked out if KK was picked, thus taking the better player. Remember,  it's never bergebin's fault!

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10 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, no doubt the actual data probably suggests we do okay in drafting. I'm pretty sure Ted has posted some more in-depth stuff on drafting previously. I just really really wish we could end up with some game-breaking talent. I mean, I hope Suzuki and Caulfield turn into that, but I suppose it's possible they may just end up being 50-60-point guys instead of 80+.

And I can agree that perhaps Bergevin has done well at turning some of our higher draft picks in other contributing members of the team, but we still haven't been able to acquire game-breaking talent for as long as I can remember. And I feel like when you have the third overall pick and end up with Galchenyuk and now losing Kotkaniemi. That always just feels disappointing.

Depends how you define game-breaking talent... I think we've had a couple:

- Price, as you mentioned, was the best goalie of his generation and probably the 2nd most impactful player in his draft year after Crosby

- Subban was a game-breaker. Hate or love his personality, he was a guy who could take over a game and dominate it. He was a Norris winner and one of the top 5 D men in the game for a good number of years.

- Pacioretty was also an elite talent. You look at the goal totals for players active in Pacioretty's time and he's among the top. He's one of the best goal-scorers in the game. In general though, he was not a player who would take over a game and he played a position/style that needed others to support him. But no doubt, he was a great pick, an elite talent, and a first-line player.

- Going back and into later rounds, Markov was also a guy who could dominate a game. Not as a puck carrier and skater, but as a passer and PP quarterback.

- Galchenyuk was not an elite player by any means but was still a strong pick in a weak draft year. The jury is still out on Kotkaniemi and with Norlinder, we have a guy who has homerun potential as a pick. He may amount to little and he's no blue chip prospect, but he's got a special skillset where if it comes together, he could be dominant.

All that to say that the Habs have hit on a fair number of draft picks. Let's not forget Plekanec, Halak, Gallagher, and others. They've found their share of diamonds in the rough. I'll agree that they haven't had truly dominant game-changers outside of Price and Subban in the past 20 years, but they also haven't had a ton of opportunity to draft them. Everyone else missed on Pastrnak and Point and so on too, and they just weren't at the top of the pecking order when the likes of Stamkos, Ovi, Crosby, or McDavid were there.

 

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4 hours ago, electron58 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that Suzer & CC will be 80+ players,  sooner than later. As for #3 picks, I'm more disappointed with the KK pick, because everything screamed that  Brady was the obvious better choice. A huge failure by bergebin,  and we don't even have to say hindsight is 20/20. It should have been a no brainer,  just like the CC choice. They didn't have to be smart to pick CC. 

Tkachuk was far from the obvious pick at the time. I'm going to go back and there was a lot of talk about how he was playing in the States and it wasn't clear how to compare him to players coming out of junior. His stats in the US weren't flashy and there were questions of whether he would be able to score at the NHL level or just end up as another Chris Neil. In any case, I'm not sure Tkachuk will end up being the 4th best player in that draft when all is said and done. He's a good offensive player but his defensive play is weak and his discipline is poor as well. He could well end up being a guy like Max Domi more than anything: talented but a liability as well.

It's revisionist history to go back and re-draft and think about whether we'd take Tkachuk or Hughes, and we might have. They were in the discussion. But most of the talk from fans and media were about whether it should be Kotkaniemi or Zadina. Tkachuk was really the 3rd or 4th consideration in most voting circles.

 

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Interestingly, in Bergevin's presser on saturday someone asked him if he thought he should have drafted JK at 3rd.   Instead of answering it like most us would (that we could have taken Tkachuk or Hughes, or Boqvist or Farabee etc etc) he went off on how maybe he could have drafted down the draft to take JK 5th or 7th but there would be no guarantee that he'd still be available.  In other words, he wasnt (and still isnt) looking at and considering anyone else, they wanted JK and would have traded the 3rd pick for a later 1st if they thuoght they could have gotten him there... 

There was a lot of talk about how Arizona wanted Kotkaniemi too and definitely wanted a center. There were reports that if Montreal had traded down below Arizona that the Coyotes would have taken JK. And if we had ended up with Hayton at 6 or 7, we likely wouldn't be any better off now.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

There was a lot of talk about how Arizona wanted Kotkaniemi too and definitely wanted a center. There were reports that if Montreal had traded down below Arizona that the Coyotes would have taken JK. And if we had ended up with Hayton at 6 or 7, we likely wouldn't be any better off now.

Oh totally. I just thought it was interesting that the question was essentially "should you have taken someone else" but MB interpreted it as "you drafted JK too high, could you have gotten him lower than #3"

Its like they were picking JK no matter what. 

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14 hours ago, maas_art said:

Oh totally. I just thought it was interesting that the question was essentially "should you have taken someone else" but MB interpreted it as "you drafted JK too high, could you have gotten him lower than #3"

Its like they were picking JK no matter what. 

I think the Habs were set on drafting a center, after all MB's talk that you could only find elite centers at the top of the draft and that you couldn't trade for them or draft them down. I think they saw the 2018 draft as a "we aren't planning on picking in the top 5 again any time soon, so now's our chance to address the hole at center." And Kotkaniemi was clearly the top center in their minds. And thus far, they've been right about that last point. No other center from the draft has played more than 71 games so far, and Kotkaniemi's 62 points are more than double what his closest rival has. In retrospect, it's simply turning out to be a weak draft with very poor depth at the center position, which is reminiscent of the year the Habs drafted Galchenyuk.

In that regard, though, it's not the Habs' fault that they had great draft position in two of the weaker drafts in the past decade. If they had been picking 3rd in 2013, they could have drafted Seth Jones (or drafted Drouin and kept onto Sergachev a couple of years later). In 2014, they could have had Drasaitl at #3 as a center. In 2015, there was no obvious center choice at #3, but there were players like Marner, Aho, Barzal, Werenski, Rantanen, Chabot, and Provorov sitting there, so it was a much better draft than 2012 or 2018 in general. 2016 was also a bit of a weak draft, although we know the Habs wanted Dubois and had tried to trade up into the top 3 to get him, so he likely would have been our pick at 3 if we were there too. 2017 is looking like a great draft year to have been at the top, and at 3, there were choices like Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson, Suzuki, Necas, Vilardi, and Thomas. It was a great year to need a center, but we weren't picking til 25 and still ended up with a center prospect in Poehling. In 2019, again, it appears to have been a much better year to have needed a center than 2018: I called Zegras the steal of the draft at #9 to Anaheim, and he might have been my choice in the top 5 if we needed a center, but you also have Dach, Turcotte, Cozens, Byram, Newhook, Caufield, and so on.

All that to say that we really had bad luck with the overall inferior quality of prospect in 2012 and 2018 and particularly the lack of center depth those years. In my view, all the more reason to have not given up on Kotkaniemi so early when you still have a glaring need at center long-term within the organization.

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On 9/8/2021 at 9:55 PM, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

Sounds like it will come down to Poehling being a wild card in all of this, based on how he produces. To be honest with everyone, I really don't know that much about him, other than he has been doing well in the minor leagues.

I would like to know a little more about him.

 

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17 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Tkachuk was far from the obvious pick at the time.

 

 

His dad literally said if you think mathew is good brady is gonna be even better.  

Also brady was captain of team usa.  Quite a few people knew he was the one we should pick.  He also told MB he would play center if they wanted him to.

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4 hours ago, AH64 said:

His dad literally said if you think mathew is good brady is gonna be even better.  

Also brady was captain of team usa.  Quite a few people knew he was the one we should pick.  He also told MB he would play center if they wanted him to.

Plus he has the NHL size (which you can't teach) and is a strong skater (which you can or can not improve on). Sure, Zadina thought the Habs would pick him,  but Brady was more physically ready than most. Plus his pedigree. So, not really surprised he's doing well. Plus,  he's a pest that will continually remind the Habs of their oversight. All I remember,  is saying WTH?

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4 hours ago, AH64 said:

His dad literally said if you think mathew is good brady is gonna be even better.  

Also brady was captain of team usa.  Quite a few people knew he was the one we should pick.  He also told MB he would play center if they wanted him to.

I'm not saying Tkachuk wasn't in the discussion, I'm saying that there were knocks on him going into the draft too and that among Habs fans and media, the debate was a lot more focused on Zadina vs. Kotkaniemi than it was on Tkachuk vs. Kotkaniemi. From Bob MvKenzie's TSN rankings and scout survey, he says "Tkachuk is a lot less refined and less polished than the other elite picks" and that it was a good thing for him that he proved he can score at the WJC because "his overall lack of productivity at Boston University was becoming something of a concern." McKenzie's scouts had Tkachuk rated 4th overall behind Zadina and Kotkaniemi at 5, but he notes that Kotkaniemi was the guy with the biggest rise in his stock after the WJC and that he provided the draft with a potential #1 center. He said on that basis, scouts tend to have a positional bias and tend to value centers and D men more than wingers.

On Habs Eyes on the Prize, their final mock draft had the Habs drafting Zadina, and they noted the decision was unanimous among their writers, with the only two other players discussed being Kotkaniemi and Hughes. Tkachuk was not in the top 3 for consideration for them. Brian Wilde and Grant McCagg also had Kotkaniemi going to the Habs over at Recrutes. The Gazette and Habs I/O had the Habs going with Kotkaniemi too. Corey Pronman, the Hockey Writers, and mynhldraft had the Habs wth JK too. The Score and Sportsnet had Tkachuk going to us, but The Sporting News, The Athletic, Hockeybuzz, Bleacher Report, Futurestars, and the Journal de Montreal all had Zadina as the frontrunner.

Again, I'm not trying to slight Tkachuk here, I just think it's clear that he was not an obvious frontrunner to be the #3 pick, that there were concerns about him, and that within Habs' circles, there was much more discussion about Zadina as the consensus #3 based on talent and rankings vs. going against that ranking to draft Kotkaniemi as a potential 1C and fast riser.

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Still choked they let KK go ... the only way this gets salvaged is if somehow Poehling out develops his expectations

Suzuki - Dvorak - Poehling  - Evans, if Poehling can turn into a 40ptish strong two-way guy is fine.   I think KK has a break out year, and puts up decent numbers now that he's away from the toxic management so its going to take a bit more from Dvorak/Poehling to take that sting off.

What galls me still is that we potentially had 1st and 2nd C locked up for the next decade in NS and KK ... and in the year we let Danault walk, we get blindside by the Canes offer.   This is the Aho offer coming back to to bite MB plain and simple.   Without that offer we likely sign KK to a reasonable "Show me" bridge deal.   

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On 9/11/2021 at 4:01 PM, BigTed3 said:

I'm not saying Tkachuk wasn't in the discussion, I'm saying that there were knocks on him going into the draft too and that among Habs fans and media, the debate was a lot more focused on Zadina vs. Kotkaniemi than it was on Tkachuk vs. Kotkaniemi. From Bob MvKenzie's TSN rankings and scout survey, he says "Tkachuk is a lot less refined and less polished than the other elite picks" and that it was a good thing for him that he proved he can score at the WJC because "his overall lack of productivity at Boston University was becoming something of a concern." McKenzie's scouts had Tkachuk rated 4th overall behind Zadina and Kotkaniemi at 5, but he notes that Kotkaniemi was the guy with the biggest rise in his stock after the WJC and that he provided the draft with a potential #1 center. He said on that basis, scouts tend to have a positional bias and tend to value centers and D men more than wingers.

On Habs Eyes on the Prize, their final mock draft had the Habs drafting Zadina, and they noted the decision was unanimous among their writers, with the only two other players discussed being Kotkaniemi and Hughes. Tkachuk was not in the top 3 for consideration for them. Brian Wilde and Grant McCagg also had Kotkaniemi going to the Habs over at Recrutes. The Gazette and Habs I/O had the Habs going with Kotkaniemi too. Corey Pronman, the Hockey Writers, and mynhldraft had the Habs wth JK too. The Score and Sportsnet had Tkachuk going to us, but The Sporting News, The Athletic, Hockeybuzz, Bleacher Report, Futurestars, and the Journal de Montreal all had Zadina as the frontrunner.

Again, I'm not trying to slight Tkachuk here, I just think it's clear that he was not an obvious frontrunner to be the #3 pick, that there were concerns about him, and that within Habs' circles, there was much more discussion about Zadina as the consensus #3 based on talent and rankings vs. going against that ranking to draft Kotkaniemi as a potential 1C and fast riser.

Yup outside of the top 3 ... the next 4 picks we're all a mystery.    Most thought Zadina would go 3rd, but like you say Ted a lot had us picking KK (who if we didn't pick him all predicted would go 5th).   KK being the top rated Center and our obvious need at the time (predating the NS trade).  And what's funny, if we'd picked Zadina would we have been that far ahead from KK?    6g13a in 49games this past season for him.    

I think many are over valuing Tkachuk because he came into a team where he was thrust into the top 6 whether he was ready or not.     KK on the other hand was slotted in the bottom 6 from the start.   Hindsight is awesoe, and maybe Tkachuk performs as well or better on the Habs playing the same role ... but we did not have an organizational need at the time.  If we were picking a winger Zadina was projected as that guy, Hughes as the D and KK as the C with all three being roughly valued the same.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

Still choked they let KK go ... the only way this gets salvaged is if somehow Poehling out develops his expectations

Agree. There may not have been a space for Poehling to really get the ice time and linemates so maybe this will end up being a blessing... if he can perform. 

1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

I think KK has a break out year, and puts up decent numbers now that he's away from the toxic management

I actually think he's going to struggle this year.  I still believe he has the potential to break out but i dont think it will be this year. 

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