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Montreal doesnt match Hurricanes Offer Sheet to KK


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10 hours ago, habsisme said:

yes but the whole $20 signing bonus and everything on twitter, its clearly revenge for them. Plus, does Carolina REALLY want KK? Cause I am getting the strong impression they did it just to screw us and think we'll match. I certainly hope not

Well. It's pretty low risk-high reward for Carolina. Those draft picks aren't gonna be that valuable and they get a big centreman who MAY turn into a great top six player. If he doesn't pan out, they can just get rid of him after this season. And if we match, well... We've put ourselves into a tough cap situation and set a future standard of over-paying our players in a cap world.

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It sort of boggles my mind how these antics on Twitter are considered acceptable behavior in a pro sports league but it's the NHL, which is the least professional pro league I know of, so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, signing your RFAs early would probably be a pretty good solution to not exposing anyone else to potentially incoming offer sheets in the future. Bergevin started this but Waddell/Dundon took it to a whole different level, so I'm looking forward to see if the drama actually continues and Bergevin tries to go after Necas next summer...

As for KK, I'm still of the opinion we should match, even though it's going to sting and I'm disappointed in the kid and his role in the whole 'sending a message' thing. Not sure if it's the right thing to do anymore, because this isn't Carolina and fans in Montreal certainly won't forget, but barring a major trade (now from a position of weakness...) I still don't think we can afford losing another center after Danault.

 

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37 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

I still don't think we can afford losing another center after Danault.

I don’t know. As it was we were already going to be weak at center, losing Kotkaneimi doesn’t actually make that much of a difference. I think Poehling will surprise a lot of people. He might not produce to the level we hoped Kotkaneimi was going to do, but he can absolutely produce to the level Kotkaneimi was likely to do 

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22 hours ago, Capital Habs Fan said:

The problem is that in Montreal he would have been penciled in as the second line centre this year, which would have helped his development and raised his value going forward. 

Was he though?   That's the entire issue ... Habs management played Eric "no longer elite" Staal over him in the playoffs in the last 2 games.   They consistently dumped on KK, shuffled him around the lineup for struggling etc ... but then left Suzuki on the top line with top wingers for a 20 game stretch where he got no points. (reg season).   I think from KK's perspective that even though the math pointed to him being 2C or 1B behind Suzuki there is strong evidence to show the Habs will willingly play an inferior product over you at times (Staal etc)

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2 hours ago, MuddyWaterMoose said:

When MB makes his press conference after letting KK go, he should say that he just couldn't match the aggressive signing bonus.

  yep...throw a little sarcasm at them on the way out the door with the 2 picks in hand ...Carolina now has no wiggle room cap -wise  ...Montreal can still swing a deal for a centre with over $5 mill of Weber's salary and 2  First rounders to play with  in a stronger draft ...if KK has a so-so year Waddell will look like even more of a clown than he already is  

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Well. It's pretty low risk-high reward for Carolina. Those draft picks aren't gonna be that valuable and they get a big centreman who MAY turn into a great top six player. If he doesn't pan out, they can just get rid of him after this season. And if we match, well... We've put ourselves into a tough cap situation and set a future standard of over-paying our players in a cap world.

The other thing of note is that, according to Friedman, Carolina and JK have had talks about a longer term deal. This season would not be the benchmark, but rather a "signing bonus" - a longer deal would probably be in the $4m range i would suspect.

If MB matches he has to try to mend bridges and get us to a position where that's on the table.  Once again it seems like his hardball "Take it or leave it" deals are hurting us.   

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12 minutes ago, maas_art said:

The other thing of note is that, according to Friedman, Carolina and JK have had talks about a longer term deal. This season would not be the benchmark, but rather a "signing bonus" - a longer deal would probably be in the $4m range i would suspect.

If MB matches he has to try to mend bridges and get us to a position where that's on the table.  Once again it seems like his hardball "Take it or leave it" deals are hurting us.   

Exactly, if Montreal wants to keep moving forward they need to rid themselves of MB. He did a great job upgrading our wingers over the last 2 years but he also contributed to the whole development problem by assigning inferior guys to Laval prior to Bouchard and hiring old school coaches to run the big team who value veterans over skilled youth. I think KK will have a breakout season no matter where he ends up, I hope it is with the Habs but I see MB allowing him to walk because of his ego which is no way to run an NHL team.

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13 minutes ago, maas_art said:

If MB matches he has to try to mend bridges and get us to a position where that's on the table.  Once again it seems like his hardball "Take it or leave it" deals are hurting us. 

I guess it all boils down to how badly Montreal wants KK...a similar deal could be worked out with him as Carolina is offering him where he would get a chunk up front for the 1st year and then a more reasonable salary in the $4 mill range for 3 or 4 years of term ....you know the Habs decision will also be based on at least 3 essential RFA contracts coming due in the next 2 years ...the other factor is how does KK even play again in Montreal ?...the fans will see this as a betrayal either way ...

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24 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I guess it all boils down to how badly Montreal wants KK...a similar deal could be worked out with him as Carolina is offering him where he would get a chunk up front for the 1st year and then a more reasonable salary in the $4 mill range for 3 or 4 years of term ....you know the Habs decision will also be based on at least 3 essential RFA contracts coming due in the next 2 years ...the other factor is how does KK even play again in Montreal ?...the fans will see this as a betrayal either way ...

Yeah I'd be booing for sure (all in good fun, I don't blame him for chasing $) but if you don't want to sign with the team that chose you well ahead of where you were projected to go, kept you in on the opening day roster, and developed you, then go enjoy Carolina. 

Question: Can the team (Mtl or Car) extend him for less than what next years qualifying offer would have to be ($6mil plus)? 

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15 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

Yeah I'd be booing for sure (all in good fun, I don't blame him for chasing $) but if you don't want to sign with the team that chose you well ahead of where you were projected to go, kept you in on the opening day roster, and developed you, then go enjoy Carolina. 

Question: Can the team (Mtl or Car) extend him for less than what next years qualifying offer would have to be ($6mil plus)? 

yeah they can, but why would KK do that? Some Canes fans seem to think they have a handshake deal for next year but even if that were true, I don't think KK would give us the same deal. If we don't match and KK signs a long-term deal at a better cap hit next year, I hope there's some kind of punishment by the NHL cause that shouldn't be allowed 

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1 hour ago, arpem-can said:

I guess it all boils down to how badly Montreal wants KK...a similar deal could be worked out with him as Carolina is offering him where he would get a chunk up front for the 1st year and then a more reasonable salary in the $4 mill range for 3 or 4 years of term ....you know the Habs decision will also be based on at least 3 essential RFA contracts coming due in the next 2 years ...the other factor is how does KK even play again in Montreal ?...the fans will see this as a betrayal either way ...

Absolutely! But that requires MB to take his licks and swallow his pride. Do you see that happening? Im not sure i do.

When the deal was announced i was like "What? $6m???" But if you see it as a signing bonus & then he signs his next deal for say 4 or 5 years at $4m per, its not really a huge deal when you average it out.  It was actually a really smart play by Carolina, although I think all the petty stuff was very childish. 

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https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-kotkaniemi-price-poehling/

Now the question is, will the Habs match the offer sheet knowing that Kotkaniemi, selected third overall in the 2018 NHL Draft, is not worth $6.1 million right now and that they will have to issue him the same qualifying offer next season, essentially messing with their entire salary cap structure? At the same time, losing Kotkaniemi for less than he’s worth (a first and a third-round pick) when they are already thin at centre after losing Phillip Danault in free agency would be a tough pill to swallow.

 

There’s no doubt that Bergevin will explore every option before making his decision. He’ll explore the trade market to see if he can find a top-six centre using his two first-round picks as leverage. Names being floated around as possible targets include Christian Dvorak, Evgeny Kuznetsov and of course, Jack Eichel. Or perhaps he’ll even look at upgrading at another position. He mentioned a few weeks ago that he would like to add a puck-moving defenseman.

Carolina knew this offer would be tough for the Canadiens to match and they pounced on the opportunity to paint them into a corner.  Now Bergevin has to decide if Kotkaniemi’s upside is worth the gamble he’s being forced to take.

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3 hours ago, ChiLla said:

It sort of boggles my mind how these antics on Twitter are considered acceptable behavior in a pro sports league but it's the NHL, which is the least professional pro league I know of, so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, signing your RFAs early would probably be a pretty good solution to not exposing anyone else to potentially incoming offer sheets in the future. Bergevin started this but Waddell/Dundon took it to a whole different level, so I'm looking forward to see if the drama actually continues and Bergevin tries to go after Necas next summer...

As for KK, I'm still of the opinion we should match, even though it's going to sting and I'm disappointed in the kid and his role in the whole 'sending a message' thing. Not sure if it's the right thing to do anymore, because this isn't Carolina and fans in Montreal certainly won't forget, but barring a major trade (now from a position of weakness...) I still don't think we can afford losing another center after Danault.

 

If the Habs match the offer life will be hell for JK in Montreal especially so if he under performs. I don't think the Habs match the offer. 

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6 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Absolutely! But that requires MB to take his licks and swallow his pride. Do you see that happening? Im not sure i do.

When the deal was announced i was like "What? $6m???" But if you see it as a signing bonus & then he signs his next deal for say 4 or 5 years at $4m per, its not really a huge deal when you average it out.  It was actually a really smart play by Carolina, although I think all the petty stuff was very childish. 

yeah but if KK made a handshake deal with carolina, there's no certainty he would make the same deal with us. We're putting a lot of faith in a player who did everything he could to embarass us. Forget MB, I AM NOT SWALLOWING MY PRIDE. KK is dead to me, I will not cheer for him under any circumstances. He can take his ugly mole and get the hell out of her. Loser. 

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13 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

I also felt this way at first but the more i hear about how the canes went about it, i actually think it was a pretty shrewd move  -definitely with plenty of risk - but its essentially the opposite of an UFA signing. You sign a guy based on potential not based on past glory.  Of course this also only works if the rumors that he will take a long term deal at much lower AAV are true. 

8 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

If the Habs match the offer life will be hell for JK in Montreal especially so if he under performs. I don't think the Habs match the offer. 

I think MB will do everything he can to flip those picks.  If he cant get a suitable replacement then i think we do match it but i really wonder what that means for JK going forward. 

7 minutes ago, habsisme said:

yeah but if KK made a handshake deal with carolina, there's no certainty he would make the same deal with us. We're putting a lot of faith in a player who did everything he could to embarass us. Forget MB, I AM NOT SWALLOWING MY PRIDE. KK is dead to me, I will not cheer for him under any circumstances. He can take his ugly mole and get the hell out of her. Loser. 

Dude. He's 21 years old. He just played 3 seasons at 975k and a team offered him $6.1m  while MB was purportedly offering $2m.  He'd be crazy not to take that deal.  Add to it the fact that the hurricanes have like 7 other Finns including arguably the best Finnish player in the world... You cant blame JK.  

This one was on MB (for not locking him up sooner) but also a very interesting (risky but still smart) play by Carolina.  

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4 hours ago, campabee82 said:

There is also a flip side to this, IF you don't match and let a good young center (albeit overpaid) walk then you potentially open yourself up for further OS's next year and the year after. You think a team won't offer Zuke 8-9 mil knowing that KK just got 6 and was allowed to walk? How about Caufield in 2 years time, think a team won't offer him 11 Mil? Letting him walk also sends the message that you are a pushover and willing to sacrifice your talent to save a little coin. 

I don't believe it's a trend. Not many teams have that cap space. Deal with it when it happens.

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

yeah they can, but why would KK do that? Some Canes fans seem to think they have a handshake deal for next year but even if that were true, I don't think KK would give us the same deal. If we don't match and KK signs a long-term deal at a better cap hit next year, I hope there's some kind of punishment by the NHL cause that shouldn't be allowed 

Technically speaking they can't have a handshake deal in place as that would be tampering, IF Montreal let him go and Carolina immediately extend him to a multi year contract at a lower cap hit and I am MB I have the NHL investigate Carolina for tampering.

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  We'll probably never know whether or not  Bergevin tried to lock him up sooner in the same way we'll never know if KK's agent had pre- knowledge of this offer ahead of time and told KK to holdoff for his pay-day .Negotiations were underway between Carolina and Montreal for a deal involving other players and from all reports they couldn't come to an agreement .It goes without saying KK's agent would have been privy to information especially regarding a trade or salary structure /concerns .I do smell a bit of a rat here .I think he's gone frankly and I don't think he'll be able to suit up for the Habs again let alone deal with  major backlash from the fans .I don't blame KK for taking $6.1 mill ...who would ?  . We'll also probably never know never know the extent of his involvement in this deal either .....a lot of question marks . 

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For those questioning whether it would be tampering for the Canes to have a multi year deal in place after this one:

Restricted free agents are essentially just the same as UFA.  Once their past contract is up they are free to negotiate with any other team, in any way they want.  The only difference between RFA and UFA is that the original team has a chance to match. 

Ive never heard of a player signing a 1 year deal & then immediately signing an extension but there's not anything technically illegal  about it. They may have to wait until January 1 (I think thats the deadline for 1 year deals to sign an extension) but Its not tampering because all RFA are free to talk with Rival teams after their last contract is up. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

It will be interesting to see if the fans boo him should Bergevin match and KK's back here to play next season.

I think a lot will depend on whether we then turn around and sign him long term. As i mentioned above, I dont think we could offer an extension (at least not publicly) till January but we then turned around & resigned him for 5 years at $4m per, the $6.1m aberration feels a lot less painful. 

 

11 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

And I can guarantee you Carolina will do everything possible to make sure Necas is signed next year to avoid an offer sheet on him.

I wonder if MB would even try at that point? 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

I also felt this way at first but the more i hear about how the canes went about it, i actually think it was a pretty shrewd move  -definitely with plenty of risk - but its essentially the opposite of an UFA signing. You sign a guy based on potential not based on past glory.  Of course this also only works if the rumors that he will take a long term deal at much lower AAV are true. 

I think MB will do everything he can to flip those picks.  If he cant get a suitable replacement then i think we do match it but i really wonder what that means for JK going forward. 

Dude. He's 21 years old. He just played 3 seasons at 975k and a team offered him $6.1m  while MB was purportedly offering $2m.  He'd be crazy not to take that deal.  Add to it the fact that the hurricanes have like 7 other Finns including arguably the best Finnish player in the world... You cant blame JK.  

This one was on MB (for not locking him up sooner) but also a very interesting (risky but still smart) play by Carolina.  

Agreed.

I don't get any of the takes that Carolina did this out of "Revenge" or that they're "Bush League".

 

On the Revenge side, they reportedly tried to trade for KK and have sought him for a while now.  They didn't offer sheet him the the second they were able to.  And most importantly, it looks like they're trying to acquire KK, not just to flex Montreal's budget.  If the deal were Carolina trades the 1st and 3rd and eats a 3 million dollar transfer fee (to the league) that is applied as dead cap for a season for KK whom they then sign at 3.1 million it's a pure hockey trade, and one Montreal loses.  The cap hit is one year.  It's ridiculous to extrapolate that to anything beyond that.  If he plays well, they have a dilemma on how to go about resigning him.  If he doesn't, they can cut bait.  This is a move that makes their club better today.  Would they should they could they have resigned Hamilton or whomever?  Doesn't matter, on Saturday when they made this move, they couldn't.

 

As for the "Bush League" stuff, what the hell?  Montreal made a play at Aho.  They offered him a deal that Carolina would have been foolish to turn down.  It's main weapon was to try and bully a small market team with a huge upfront cost.  Carolina made their offer to KK.  It's main weapon was to try and bully Montreal via their cap space and future signings.  One of those is hockey business, the other was targeting an owner specifically to make a non-hockey related decision.  I'm sure that this isn't a popular opinion, but that's bush league.  Yeah, the twitter stuff is excessive, but the Habs brayed pretty loudly too when they thought they were going to carve a young star off another team too.

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For me personally this is not big deal I am no fan of KK anymore I find he is soft on the puck often seems lost out there and falls down all the time! that being said I have seen some talent here and there but not 6 mil worth and I personally don't think he will ever get there. the problem I have with this is that the team allowed it to happen at all! who is paying attention to our contracts and who is exposed to this kind of stuff? seems to me there is a hole in the front office group because this was a huge tactical error! if this happens going forward someone needs to get canned! I am also a bit surprised by this feeling that the first round pick is going to be worthless the Canes just lost Hamilton and have crap goaltending not exactly a recipe for winning! I feel like the kid wanted to move on which is fine lets let him go many of our former players have moved on and flopped in recent years. hey perhaps Domi would like another shot at center.....or Galchenyuk lol!

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17 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

It will be interesting to see if the fans boo him should Bergevin match and KK's back here to play next season.

And I can guarantee you Carolina will do everything possible to make sure Necas is signed next year to avoid an offer sheet on him.

Another reason not to take KK, go after Necas next year

 

2 minutes ago, Litany said:

Agreed.

I don't get any of the takes that Carolina did this out of "Revenge" or that they're "Bush League".

 

On the Revenge side, they reportedly tried to trade for KK and have sought him for a while now.  They didn't offer sheet him the the second they were able to.  And most importantly, it looks like they're trying to acquire KK, not just to flex Montreal's budget.  If the deal were Carolina trades the 1st and 3rd and eats a 3 million dollar transfer fee (to the league) that is applied as dead cap for a season for KK whom they then sign at 3.1 million it's a pure hockey trade, and one Montreal loses.  The cap hit is one year.  It's ridiculous to extrapolate that to anything beyond that.  If he plays well, they have a dilemma on how to go about resigning him.  If he doesn't, they can cut bait.  This is a move that makes their club better today.  Would they should they could they have resigned Hamilton or whomever?  Doesn't matter, on Saturday when they made this move, they couldn't.

 

As for the "Bush League" stuff, what the hell?  Montreal made a play at Aho.  They offered him a deal that Carolina would have been foolish to turn down.  It's main weapon was to try and bully a small market team with a huge upfront cost.  Carolina made their offer to KK.  It's main weapon was to try and bully Montreal via their cap space and future signings.  One of those is hockey business, the other was targeting an owner specifically to make a non-hockey related decision.  I'm sure that this isn't a popular opinion, but that's bush league.  Yeah, the twitter stuff is excessive, but the Habs brayed pretty loudly too when they thought they were going to carve a young star off another team too.

Dude, come on, a quick look at twitter shows they are interested in revenge! Adn the Aho signing was a perfectly reasonable contract. Its bush league because there is no way you can tell me they WANT KK to come to them. They are PRAYING the habs match, or they just lost a first and a third for NOTHING (because that's what KK is worth a 6 milion, just like Suzuki would be useless at 12 million). The only arguments I hear from people saying it was a good move are people that are saying "well they have a handshake agreement for a long term deal at lower cap hit" which has so many problems with it but kind of proves the point that this is a shit signing for Carolina. 

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