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Habs Clean house. Bergevin, Timmins, Wilson Terminated


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New Contract?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you feel MB deserves a new contract?

    • Yes,,, he's earned it.
      1
    • Absolutely not,,, he hasn't earned it.
      11
    • Undecided
      1

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

There's some chatter on social media (no reputable sources though) about whether Bergevin being with the Hawks during the Kyle Beach era could be an impediment to his signing a new contract. He wasn't named in any of the documents but everyone around him that he worked with was named and Beach has said himself that he's sure all the players and everyone in the organization knew, given the names he was called afterwards. So have to wonder

1. Does Bergevin know he was part of a meeting and that it could eventually come out that he knew something? Is Bergevin considering walking away on his own terms to try to stay out of the limelight?

2. Does Molson want to see how this whole thing plays out before offering Bergevin a longer-term deal?

Again pure speculation but the fact that Bergevin was there and is not negotiating a new deal now is a bit odd and is going to draw this type of consideration... Stephane Waite was also a coach with Chicago then but obviously has already been relieved of his duties here for other reasons in the past.

What was Bergevin's position within the Chicago organization back then?

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14 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

There's some chatter on social media (no reputable sources though) about whether Bergevin being with the Hawks during the Kyle Beach era could be an impediment to his signing a new contract. He wasn't named in any of the documents but everyone around him that he worked with was named and Beach has said himself that he's sure all the players and everyone in the organization knew, given the names he was called afterwards. So have to wonder

1. Does Bergevin know he was part of a meeting and that it could eventually come out that he knew something? Is Bergevin considering walking away on his own terms to try to stay out of the limelight?

2. Does Molson want to see how this whole thing plays out before offering Bergevin a longer-term deal?

Again pure speculation but the fact that Bergevin was there and is not negotiating a new deal now is a bit odd and is going to draw this type of consideration... Stephane Waite was also a coach with Chicago then but obviously has already been relieved of his duties here for other reasons in the past.

I don't think the Chicago stuff will touch MB. He wasn't in the meeting and given his position, he really wouldn't have been around the team very much. Even if he did know, if he knew his bosses knew, what was he supposed to do about it? I think he's safe

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

What was Bergevin's position within the Chicago organization back then?

After his retirement, Bergevin was named a professional scout with the Blackhawks' organization. In 2008, he served as an assistant coach for the Blackhawks after three seasons with their scouting staff. In July, 2009, he was appointed the team's director of player personnel.[3] While in this position, the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in 2010.

On June 15, 2011, Bergevin was promoted to assistant general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. He replaced Kevin Cheveldayoff, who had left the Blackhawks organization to accept the general manager position with the new Winnipeg Jets team.[4]

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1 minute ago, Regis22 said:

After his retirement, Bergevin was named a professional scout with the Blackhawks' organization. In 2008, he served as an assistant coach for the Blackhawks after three seasons with their scouting staff. In July, 2009, he was appointed the team's director of player personnel.[3] While in this position, the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in 2010.

On June 15, 2011, Bergevin was promoted to assistant general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. He replaced Kevin Cheveldayoff, who had left the Blackhawks organization to accept the general manager position with the new Winnipeg Jets team.[4]

Thanks for that Regis!

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2 hours ago, Regis22 said:

This was from June, sounds like everyone just kept denying 

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/marc-bergevin-lawsuit-chicago-nhl-1.6082387

The thing is, even if Bergevin wasn't at that one meeting identified, he and Cheveldayoff and everyone else clearly seemed to know of it... Beach outright stated that teammates and other players started to call him obscene names based on their knowledge of the situation. So everyone clearly knew and I don't buy Bergevin's claim of ignorance. Completely possible he didn't have any official word of it, but if the GM and Assistant GM and assistant coaches and owner and players all knew, why would Bergevin be the one guy who didn't?

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10 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

The thing is, even if Bergevin wasn't at that one meeting identified, he and Cheveldayoff and everyone else clearly seemed to know of it... Beach outright stated that teammates and other players started to call him obscene names based on their knowledge of the situation. So everyone clearly knew and I don't buy Bergevin's claim of ignorance. Completely possible he didn't have any official word of it, but if the GM and Assistant GM and assistant coaches and owner and players all knew, why would Bergevin be the one guy who didn't?

For sure.  I am certain he knew at some level.  That in itself doesnt make him culpable - not everyone who knew would have been in a position to do much but it would be good if he took ownership.  He has a history of pleading ignorance  - in many cases it seems very unlikely that he was. 

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16 minutes ago, maas_art said:

For sure.  I am certain he knew at some level.  That in itself doesnt make him culpable - not everyone who knew would have been in a position to do much but it would be good if he took ownership.  He has a history of pleading ignorance  - in many cases it seems very unlikely that he was. 

That's how I feel about most of it. I mean think if something like this happened in your workplace. You tell your superviser, and you tell HR, but if everyone already knows, I would just mind my own business. At the end of the day, it was Bowman and Quenneville, they're the ones that screwed up and are responsible. 

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49 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

The thing is, even if Bergevin wasn't at that one meeting identified, he and Cheveldayoff and everyone else clearly seemed to know of it... Beach outright stated that teammates and other players started to call him obscene names based on their knowledge of the situation. So everyone clearly knew and I don't buy Bergevin's claim of ignorance. Completely possible he didn't have any official word of it, but if the GM and Assistant GM and assistant coaches and owner and players all knew, why would Bergevin be the one guy who didn't?

Goes back to the burden of proof - In the cases of Bowman and Quenneville there were supposedly minutes of meetings where they participated and referenced the Beach affair, and the ultimatum of Aldrich resign or be subject of an investigation. So the nhl investigation was conclusive on that evidence. Cheveldayoff gets a pass, and it follows that Bergevin provided a denial, so both fail on the guilty by association argument - Your above bolded statement is an assumption and is REJECTED. So in Chretien's word - "A proof is a proof...." :4322: Certainly some question marks as usually all parts of management are close to the players and I concur that it's suspicious, but the investigation and Bettman have their pound of flesh, so it's done.

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54 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

The thing is, even if Bergevin wasn't at that one meeting identified, he and Cheveldayoff and everyone else clearly seemed to know of it... Beach outright stated that teammates and other players started to call him obscene names based on their knowledge of the situation. So everyone clearly knew and I don't buy Bergevin's claim of ignorance. Completely possible he didn't have any official word of it, but if the GM and Assistant GM and assistant coaches and owner and players all knew, why would Bergevin be the one guy who didn't?

 

44 minutes ago, maas_art said:

For sure.  I am certain he knew at some level.  That in itself doesnt make him culpable - not everyone who knew would have been in a position to do much but it would be good if he took ownership.  He has a history of pleading ignorance  - in many cases it seems very unlikely that he was. 

I agree with both of you, what strikes me as odd is that MB was director of player development at the time. Isn't check on prospects part of that job description? How could MB not have known or have been considered to not be in a position to do something about it? He could have taken it to the league if he felt the Hawks weren't going to do something about it, he could have helped Beach find counseling himself, due to his title IMO MB was in the best position to a.) have known and b.) have done something about it. If Quinnville is guilty because he was the coach, then MB is more so because he was in charge of the prospects at the time.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

The thing is, even if Bergevin wasn't at that one meeting identified, he and Cheveldayoff and everyone else clearly seemed to know of it... Beach outright stated that teammates and other players started to call him obscene names based on their knowledge of the situation. So everyone clearly knew and I don't buy Bergevin's claim of ignorance. Completely possible he didn't have any official word of it, but if the GM and Assistant GM and assistant coaches and owner and players all knew, why would Bergevin be the one guy who didn't?

Duncan Keith : ( I read that he refused to participate in the inquiry )

“I didn’t know anything,” he said. “My whole focus was right in the moment, doing what we had to do as a team. As one of the leaders on that team, our focus was trying to win hockey games. I know there was talk that players knew, and maybe some guys did know, but not everybody knew.

“Maybe that’s hard for people to understand, but that’s the truth. Not everybody knew. And I didn’t know that those things happened to that person.”

 

You dont think that some people really really hate Beach now , even though they are saying all the right things now 

 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

For sure.  I am certain he knew at some level.  That in itself doesnt make him culpable - not everyone who knew would have been in a position to do much but it would be good if he took ownership.  He has a history of pleading ignorance  - in many cases it seems very unlikely that he was. 

 

27 minutes ago, claremont said:

Goes back to the burden of proof - In the cases of Bowman and Quenneville there were supposedly minutes of meetings where they participated and referenced the Beach affair, and the ultimatum of Aldrich resign or be subject of an investigation. So the nhl investigation was conclusive on that evidence. Cheveldayoff gets a pass, and it follows that Bergevin provided a denial, so both fail on the guilty by association argument - Your above bolded statement is an assumption and is REJECTED. So in Chretien's word - "A proof is a proof...." :4322: Certainly some question marks as usually all parts of management are close to the players and I concur that it's suspicious, but the investigation and Bettman have their pound of flesh, so it's done.

Right, not saying he himself was personally responsible for reporting anything to the league in terms of a legal or job aspect of things and not saying he should now be fired for anything. Just saying that when it's clear that umpteen management people were documented as knowing it and the victim states that other players knew and approached him about it, I don't see any way that Bergevin could not have known. The only one who seemed to do anything about it was Paul Vincent, the Hawks "skills coach" and again, if he knew, it wasn't likely that management shared with him and didn't let other management know. Ultimately, it sounds like even ownership might have known and that the organization as a whole decided to cover things up to prioritize their Cup run.

As far as responsibility goes, again, not saying Bergevin is guilty of anything. If your GM, President, and maybe owner know, then really the onus is on them to report it to the league. But it sounds like here, the Hawks as a whole were culpable of

1. Purposely covering things up and refusing to allow people to take this to the league or to the DA's office.

2. Recommending Aldrich for another job, which led to another sexual assault. Here, I wonder if the Hawks' could be legally liable for allowing that to happen.

As far as Bergevin goes, I don't see personal legal liability here, but coming from that organizational cover-up AND then going on to Draft Mailloux knowing his history, it kind of points to a manager who doesn't really care much about the victims of sexual assault and will do what he wants to try and win. It's a bad look, with the one incident with the Hawks compounding what we saw this past summer.

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27 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Right, not saying he himself was personally responsible for reporting anything to the league in terms of a legal or job aspect of things and not saying he should now be fired for anything. Just saying that when it's clear that umpteen management people were documented as knowing it and the victim states that other players knew and approached him about it, I don't see any way that Bergevin could not have known. The only one who seemed to do anything about it was Paul Vincent, the Hawks "skills coach" and again, if he knew, it wasn't likely that management shared with him and didn't let other management know. Ultimately, it sounds like even ownership might have known and that the organization as a whole decided to cover things up to prioritize their Cup run.

As far as responsibility goes, again, not saying Bergevin is guilty of anything. If your GM, President, and maybe owner know, then really the onus is on them to report it to the league. But it sounds like here, the Hawks as a whole were culpable of

1. Purposely covering things up and refusing to allow people to take this to the league or to the DA's office.

2. Recommending Aldrich for another job, which led to another sexual assault. Here, I wonder if the Hawks' could be legally liable for allowing that to happen.

As far as Bergevin goes, I don't see personal legal liability here, but coming from that organizational cover-up AND then going on to Draft Mailloux knowing his history, it kind of points to a manager who doesn't really care much about the victims of sexual assault and will do what he wants to try and win. It's a bad look, with the one incident with the Hawks compounding what we saw this past summer.

For me MB had the biggest responsibility to report what he knew, whether to the league or otherwise. He was in charge of player development and in constant contact with players and prospects on a daily basis. It would be unreasonable to expect that MB knew nothing of the incident or the cover up. IMO everyone who knew shared a portion of the coverup as anyone could have and should have reported it, especially the guy tasked with taking care of all the players and prospects. The burden of proof does not really apply here its not a criminal investigation, all one has to prove is there was a reasonable assumption that an individual knew or should have known and therefore should have reported the incident. Given MB's position with the Hawks that task is pretty simple, however it seems like the league is more interested in taking down the sr. management staff at the time rather than taking down all of the guilty parties.

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

For me MB had the biggest responsibility to report what he knew, whether to the league or otherwise. He was in charge of player development and in constant contact with players and prospects on a daily basis. It would be unreasonable to expect that MB knew nothing of the incident or the cover up. IMO everyone who knew shared a portion of the coverup as anyone could have and should have reported it, especially the guy tasked with taking care of all the players and prospects. The burden of proof does not really apply here its not a criminal investigation, all one has to prove is there was a reasonable assumption that an individual knew or should have known and therefore should have reported the incident. Given MB's position with the Hawks that task is pretty simple, however it seems like the league is more interested in taking down the sr. management staff at the time rather than taking down all of the guilty parties.

report it to who? The guys at the top already knew and HR was notified 3 weeks later (I'm pretty sure its possible many people weren't aware for those 3 weeks). I would NEVER go to the police if the victim didn't want to come forward and he didn't. The people responsible for this already stepped down, the next place to look is the NHLPA and why they didn't do anything!

My boss knows, 3 weeks later HR know... why would I ever talk about it again? I'd want to protect the privacy of the victim and the rights of the accussed and mind my own business. 

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1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

You dont think that some people really really hate Beach now , even though they are saying all the right things now 

The other thing we have to remember is that a lot has changed in the last 10 years.  Imagine Drouin taking half a year off for mental health reasons in 2010. Do you really think he'd be as welcomed back then as he was now? I dont.  

Abuse is abuse and im not saying it was taken any less seriously then but the peripheral exposure, like players and even secondary management may well have not quite known what was going on & didnt care to investigate further.  There's reports that teammates called him a homophobic slur - so maybe they thought he was gay and having a consensual relationship with Aldrich. Who knows.  Sounds more likely than them taunting a guy who is supposed to be their "brother" as a teammate after he is abused.  Something like this happens now & you can bet everyone involved is dotting their i's and crossing their t's.    We're seeing more and more of this stuff coming to light, like the horrific stories out of the olympic women's gymnastics teams.    The positive is that I dont think this type of abuse could happen as easily anymore. 

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5 hours ago, claremont said:

Goes back to the burden of proof - In the cases of Bowman and Quenneville there were supposedly minutes of meetings where they participated and referenced the Beach affair, and the ultimatum of Aldrich resign or be subject of an investigation. So the nhl investigation was conclusive on that evidence. Cheveldayoff gets a pass, and it follows that Bergevin provided a denial, so both fail on the guilty by association argument - Your above bolded statement is an assumption and is REJECTED. So in Chretien's word - "A proof is a proof...." :4322: Certainly some question marks as usually all parts of management are close to the players and I concur that it's suspicious, but the investigation and Bettman have their pound of flesh, so it's done.

LOL....Chretiens one of the last people on earth I'd believe.

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5 hours ago, habsisme said:

report it to who? The guys at the top already knew and HR was notified 3 weeks later (I'm pretty sure its possible many people weren't aware for those 3 weeks). I would NEVER go to the police if the victim didn't want to come forward and he didn't. The people responsible for this already stepped down, the next place to look is the NHLPA and why they didn't do anything!

My boss knows, 3 weeks later HR know... why would I ever talk about it again? I'd want to protect the privacy of the victim and the rights of the accussed and mind my own business. 

Start with the PA, try to convince the victim to come forward and support him, instead of just being part of the problem. There are lots of things MB COULD and SHOULD have done IF he knew about it. They range from just offering to help set up a support system to convincing the victim to go to the police to notifying league or PA officials. When it became obvious that the "higher ups" were not going to do something the "lower down guys" should have stepped up. Ignorance doesn't absolve a person from doing what they know to be morally right, ignorance is just a cowards claim to defense. If I know or should have known that a bribe was paid/recieved at my company then I am just as liable as the person actually received or paid the bribe. Why should this be any different? MB should have and probably did know something was going on given his role as president of player development. If he knew and did nothing he is just as guilty, if he didn't know but should have given his role he wasn't doing his job and remains just as guilty. I do not see any scenario where MB didn't know or shouldn't have known what was going on.

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On 10/29/2021 at 10:13 PM, campabee82 said:

Start with the PA, try to convince the victim to come forward and support him, instead of just being part of the problem. There are lots of things MB COULD and SHOULD have done IF he knew about it. They range from just offering to help set up a support system to convincing the victim to go to the police to notifying league or PA officials.

Appears  KB did contact the NHLPA and they did nothing .  

and reading the report appears maybe the entire team knew

Mental skills coach and team counselor Jim Gary shared Beach's allegations with other leaders of the Blackhawks including President John McDonough, Executive Vice President Jay Blunk, Assistant General Manager Kevin Cheveldayoff and head coach Joel Quenneville.

The front office met and decided to "avoid bad publicity" as the team approached the playoffs. The team's leaders didn't make the allegations public or remove Aldrich from  the team until well after the team won the Stanley Cup.

 

 

Shawn Lalonde, a Black Ace with the 2010 #Blackhawks, tells Ilta-Sanomat in Finland that he thinks the whole team knew what happened to Kyle Beach and that now "players don't really know what to say."

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Ok so it seems pretty clear to one and all that MB is a lame duck so..... not better time than now let him go promote someone until you find a replacement and move on! Next up would be finding a coach that is aware of what is happening so they make some changes to reflect what the team is actually doing, that would be nice! the front office is a joke the players know and are coasting at least that is what it looks like! Get rid of MB now and move on! he never really got it done, a couple of near misses is a close as he got and it seems that any year we were strong we fell of a cliff the year after! heck we were not even very good last year we just played our guts out in the playoffs.

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Nice to see that MB still has job security even after one of the worst starts in franchise history! WTH is Molson doing? He has got to see that this team is going to not only miss the playoffs but start losing revenue as well. Fans and media are getting fed up and the organization is becoming the joke of the league.

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12 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Everyday I wake up hoping this will be the day, only to be disappointed once again LOL

How much longer can this go on?  It's been too many years already! Does Molson even care?  It's not like it would be a knee jerk decision.  bergebin has laid the groundwork,  over several years, to be fired. I mean, others have been fired for less. This is Lefebvre,  all over again!

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  • maas_art changed the title to Habs Clean house. Bergevin, Timmins, Wilson Terminated
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