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Marc Bergevin Contract


New Contract?  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you feel MB deserves a new contract?

    • Yes,,, he's earned it.
      1
    • Absolutely not,,, he hasn't earned it.
      10
    • Undecided
      1


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4 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Excitement is good. Better than whatever we're getting so far this season.

Agree.  This is really painful. Like almost worse than the Jan Bulis years... at least then it was like 'we dont have much talent" but when you look at the list of wingers we have?  This team should not be 1-6. 

 

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As I said before, if there was ever going to be a time to make a change at coach or GM or both, it would be towards the end of this West Coast road trip. You let it go later than that and your season is likely already toast. But if we continue to do poorly in the next few games, I think Molson will need to look at acting and bringing in a coach who can do better with the younger core, so we don't lose team cohesion. We're lacking a lot of leadership right now and I don't think it helps that we have no captain and a rotating cast of assistant captains. With Weber, Danault, Price, Byron, Tatar, etc. all departed or injured, the team needed to identify who was going to take ownership for leading the team and they let it slip by failing to appoint anyone. No one person in the room has the authority or responsibility to lead, so it comes down on the coaches even more to get that job done, and they frankly are failing at it. Coming home from a long trip and getting to play games at home in front of your fans is a good time to re-energize your team and make it that fans are excited to cheer you for something rather than booing you and demanding change.

A couple of thoughts on replacements for Marc Bergevin outside of the Patrick Roy box that everyone is discussing:

- Mathieu Darche... former Habs player, French-speaking, background in business, and currently the Director of Hockey Ops with the two-time champion Lightning. He might be the kind of up and comer that the Habs target as an executive here.

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

- Vincent Damphousse... he's on RDS right now from time to time, and he publicly admitted he was interested in the job when Bergevin was hired. Was a great hockey player, probably doesn't have the credentials to move into a GM job, but might get consideration being around the team and being Francophone.

- Martin Lapointe... started with Bergevin as our Director of Player Development and has now taken over from Timmins as the Director of Amateur Scouting, so like TT, has a history and knowledge of the team that would make the transition easier. Speaks French, played hockey, ticks a lot of the boxes. Hard to know what his own personal philosophy is though as he doesn't do a lot of public appearances with the media.

- Martin Madden Jr... a very very interesting candidate whose name has been in rumors over the past year or two as well. He's been a scout for several teams but for over a decade has been with the Ducks and was their Director of Amateur Scouting and now their Assistant GM. Anaheim, for what it's worth, has one of the best young talent pools in the league right now, and much of that might come down to Madden. The kicker? He's from Quebec City and still lives there in the off-season. He went to McGill, he speaks French, and many in league circles see him as being the next Julien Brisebois in terms of an ascending future GM.

So I'll jump back to my earlier point about coming home from the West Coast with a new GM or coach, and Madden might literally be a guy you could bring home with you from California. If the decision were up to me, I'd very honestly be between Madden and Timmins, two guys with a background in scouting, who understand the need to draft and develop well but who are young enough to bring a fresh mindset to the table. I definitely see both as being better options than Patrick Roy or some of the less experienced names tossed about simply because they're Francophones. Darche could also have potential but likely needs some more experience first.

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29 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

As I said before, if there was ever going to be a time to make a change at coach or GM or both, it would be towards the end of this West Coast road trip. You let it go later than that and your season is likely already toast. But if we continue to do poorly in the next few games, I think Molson will need to look at acting and bringing in a coach who can do better with the younger core, so we don't lose team cohesion. We're lacking a lot of leadership right now and I don't think it helps that we have no captain and a rotating cast of assistant captains. With Weber, Danault, Price, Byron, Tatar, etc. all departed or injured, the team needed to identify who was going to take ownership for leading the team and they let it slip by failing to appoint anyone. No one person in the room has the authority or responsibility to lead, so it comes down on the coaches even more to get that job done, and they frankly are failing at it. Coming home from a long trip and getting to play games at home in front of your fans is a good time to re-energize your team and make it that fans are excited to cheer you for something rather than booing you and demanding change.

A couple of thoughts on replacements for Marc Bergevin outside of the Patrick Roy box that everyone is discussing:

- Mathieu Darche... former Habs player, French-speaking, background in business, and currently the Director of Hockey Ops with the two-time champion Lightning. He might be the kind of up and comer that the Habs target as an executive here.

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

- Vincent Damphousse... he's on RDS right now from time to time, and he publicly admitted he was interested in the job when Bergevin was hired. Was a great hockey player, probably doesn't have the credentials to move into a GM job, but might get consideration being around the team and being Francophone.

- Martin Lapointe... started with Bergevin as our Director of Player Development and has now taken over from Timmins as the Director of Amateur Scouting, so like TT, has a history and knowledge of the team that would make the transition easier. Speaks French, played hockey, ticks a lot of the boxes. Hard to know what his own personal philosophy is though as he doesn't do a lot of public appearances with the media.

- Martin Madden Jr... a very very interesting candidate whose name has been in rumors over the past year or two as well. He's been a scout for several teams but for over a decade has been with the Ducks and was their Director of Amateur Scouting and now their Assistant GM. Anaheim, for what it's worth, has one of the best young talent pools in the league right now, and much of that might come down to Madden. The kicker? He's from Quebec City and still lives there in the off-season. He went to McGill, he speaks French, and many in league circles see him as being the next Julien Brisebois in terms of an ascending future GM.

So I'll jump back to my earlier point about coming home from the West Coast with a new GM or coach, and Madden might literally be a guy you could bring home with you from California. If the decision were up to me, I'd very honestly be between Madden and Timmins, two guys with a background in scouting, who understand the need to draft and develop well but who are young enough to bring a fresh mindset to the table. I definitely see both as being better options than Patrick Roy or some of the less experienced names tossed about simply because they're Francophones. Darche could also have potential but likely needs some more experience first.

But do we think Molson will actually consider it?   

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31 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

As I said before, if there was ever going to be a time to make a change at coach or GM or both, it would be towards the end of this West Coast road trip. You let it go later than that and your season is likely already toast. But if we continue to do poorly in the next few games, I think Molson will need to look at acting and bringing in a coach who can do better with the younger core, so we don't lose team cohesion. We're lacking a lot of leadership right now and I don't think it helps that we have no captain and a rotating cast of assistant captains. With Weber, Danault, Price, Byron, Tatar, etc. all departed or injured, the team needed to identify who was going to take ownership for leading the team and they let it slip by failing to appoint anyone. No one person in the room has the authority or responsibility to lead, so it comes down on the coaches even more to get that job done, and they frankly are failing at it. Coming home from a long trip and getting to play games at home in front of your fans is a good time to re-energize your team and make it that fans are excited to cheer you for something rather than booing you and demanding change.

A couple of thoughts on replacements for Marc Bergevin outside of the Patrick Roy box that everyone is discussing:

- Mathieu Darche... former Habs player, French-speaking, background in business, and currently the Director of Hockey Ops with the two-time champion Lightning. He might be the kind of up and comer that the Habs target as an executive here.

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

- Vincent Damphousse... he's on RDS right now from time to time, and he publicly admitted he was interested in the job when Bergevin was hired. Was a great hockey player, probably doesn't have the credentials to move into a GM job, but might get consideration being around the team and being Francophone.

- Martin Lapointe... started with Bergevin as our Director of Player Development and has now taken over from Timmins as the Director of Amateur Scouting, so like TT, has a history and knowledge of the team that would make the transition easier. Speaks French, played hockey, ticks a lot of the boxes. Hard to know what his own personal philosophy is though as he doesn't do a lot of public appearances with the media.

- Martin Madden Jr... a very very interesting candidate whose name has been in rumors over the past year or two as well. He's been a scout for several teams but for over a decade has been with the Ducks and was their Director of Amateur Scouting and now their Assistant GM. Anaheim, for what it's worth, has one of the best young talent pools in the league right now, and much of that might come down to Madden. The kicker? He's from Quebec City and still lives there in the off-season. He went to McGill, he speaks French, and many in league circles see him as being the next Julien Brisebois in terms of an ascending future GM.

So I'll jump back to my earlier point about coming home from the West Coast with a new GM or coach, and Madden might literally be a guy you could bring home with you from California. If the decision were up to me, I'd very honestly be between Madden and Timmins, two guys with a background in scouting, who understand the need to draft and develop well but who are young enough to bring a fresh mindset to the table. I definitely see both as being better options than Patrick Roy or some of the less experienced names tossed about simply because they're Francophones. Darche could also have potential but likely needs some more experience first.

BigTed you ever think of doing your own habs blog/vlog? I would definitely read/watch it

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

But do we think Molson will actually consider it?   

Until this year I would have said no. I don't think he'd fire Bergevin as a function of his performance. BUT we also know Bergevin has not agreed to a new contract and that there are rumors he could be burnt out or be looking to move on to someplace else like LA. So with that in mind, I do believe Molson is smart enough to realize he has to have a contingency plan in place. And if his hand is forced such that the team is doing poorly and needs a jumpstart, can you really fire a new coach a dozen games into his first full season without also firing the GM? So yes, I think it's on the table as a "well we might be headed to this after the season, so why not just make the move now and get the guy we want."

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2 minutes ago, habsisme said:

BigTed you ever think of doing your own habs blog/vlog? I would definitely read/watch it

LOL, too much work for me... thanks for the compliment, but this is largely where I come to share my thoughts on the Habs.

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10 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Until this year I would have said no. I don't think he'd fire Bergevin as a function of his performance. BUT we also know Bergevin has not agreed to a new contract and that there are rumors he could be burnt out or be looking to move on to someplace else like LA. So with that in mind, I do believe Molson is smart enough to realize he has to have a contingency plan in place. And if his hand is forced such that the team is doing poorly and needs a jumpstart, can you really fire a new coach a dozen games into his first full season without also firing the GM? So yes, I think it's on the table as a "well we might be headed to this after the season, so why not just make the move now and get the guy we want."

I suspect if we lose 2 or 3 of the next 4 then Molson will pull the trigger.   If we're 1-9 or 2-8 at the 10 game mark that perhaps forces his hand.   Having said that it also raises the concern that whomever replaces MB is not an upgrade but yet again selected from a small pool of french speaking candidates who realistically would never be hired by any other team.

The stark reality is that until this organization sheds the notion that they can only hire bilingual management they are limiting their candidates and doomed to repeat the same mistakes that they have made since hiring Houle and Tremblay.    

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

As I said before, if there was ever going to be a time to make a change at coach or GM or both, it would be towards the end of this West Coast road trip. You let it go later than that and your season is likely already toast. But if we continue to do poorly in the next few games, I think Molson will need to look at acting and bringing in a coach who can do better with the younger core, so we don't lose team cohesion. We're lacking a lot of leadership right now and I don't think it helps that we have no captain and a rotating cast of assistant captains. With Weber, Danault, Price, Byron, Tatar, etc. all departed or injured, the team needed to identify who was going to take ownership for leading the team and they let it slip by failing to appoint anyone. No one person in the room has the authority or responsibility to lead, so it comes down on the coaches even more to get that job done, and they frankly are failing at it. Coming home from a long trip and getting to play games at home in front of your fans is a good time to re-energize your team and make it that fans are excited to cheer you for something rather than booing you and demanding change.

A couple of thoughts on replacements for Marc Bergevin outside of the Patrick Roy box that everyone is discussing:

- Mathieu Darche... former Habs player, French-speaking, background in business, and currently the Director of Hockey Ops with the two-time champion Lightning. He might be the kind of up and comer that the Habs target as an executive here.

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

- Vincent Damphousse... he's on RDS right now from time to time, and he publicly admitted he was interested in the job when Bergevin was hired. Was a great hockey player, probably doesn't have the credentials to move into a GM job, but might get consideration being around the team and being Francophone.

- Martin Lapointe... started with Bergevin as our Director of Player Development and has now taken over from Timmins as the Director of Amateur Scouting, so like TT, has a history and knowledge of the team that would make the transition easier. Speaks French, played hockey, ticks a lot of the boxes. Hard to know what his own personal philosophy is though as he doesn't do a lot of public appearances with the media.

- Martin Madden Jr... a very very interesting candidate whose name has been in rumors over the past year or two as well. He's been a scout for several teams but for over a decade has been with the Ducks and was their Director of Amateur Scouting and now their Assistant GM. Anaheim, for what it's worth, has one of the best young talent pools in the league right now, and much of that might come down to Madden. The kicker? He's from Quebec City and still lives there in the off-season. He went to McGill, he speaks French, and many in league circles see him as being the next Julien Brisebois in terms of an ascending future GM.

So I'll jump back to my earlier point about coming home from the West Coast with a new GM or coach, and Madden might literally be a guy you could bring home with you from California. If the decision were up to me, I'd very honestly be between Madden and Timmins, two guys with a background in scouting, who understand the need to draft and develop well but who are young enough to bring a fresh mindset to the table. I definitely see both as being better options than Patrick Roy or some of the less experienced names tossed about simply because they're Francophones. Darche could also have potential but likely needs some more experience first.

Interesting list, thanks, makes me slightly less pessimistic.

Is Timmins actually above average? I know drafting in the NHL is hard, but it seems like so few of our draft picks ever play a significant role on the team. Obviously it's hard to know how much autonomy Timmins has, and he doesn't control the development process or who gets traded, but just at first-glance our drafting doesn't look too impressive.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

At this point, you're right... It couldn't be any worse.r.

Buffalo fans would like a word :D

I agree it's feeling like time for a change, but for all of Bergevin's faults, it could definitely be worse

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52 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

Buffalo fans would like a word :D

I agree it's feeling like time for a change, but for all of Bergevin's faults, it could definitely be worse

I hear Regean Houle is available. Has experience and speaks French. Any other qualifications needed??:ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Graeme-1 said:

Interesting list, thanks, makes me slightly less pessimistic.

Is Timmins actually above average? I know drafting in the NHL is hard, but it seems like so few of our draft picks ever play a significant role on the team. Obviously it's hard to know how much autonomy Timmins has, and he doesn't control the development process or who gets traded, but just at first-glance our drafting doesn't look too impressive.

I've gone through Timmin's draft history several times, so I won't rehash, but I think the context needs to be

1. That most teams hit on 1 maybe 2 players per draft (in terms of ever becoming regular NHLers). Any draft with 3 players becoming NHLers is a great draft, and the one where we landed Pacioretty, McDonagh, and Subban in the same year might have been one of the best drafts ever in the modern era.

2. Most stars are drafted in the top 10 and largely in the top 5. So you can't fault a scout for picking a guy at #23 or #28 who ends up being a 4th liner. That's just how the cookie crumbles. Yes, it's easy in retrospect to pick out a lower 1st rounder or late rounder who has become a star player, but if the guy who went #78 overall was really predictably such a gem, someone would have chosen him earlier. A lot of these guys are crapshoots with upside and you're hoping you hit.

So in TT's case, I ask myself how he did with top 5-10 draft picks and frankly, he did pretty well. Price was a homerun and probably the 2nd most impactful player in that draft after Crosby. Sergachev was also a great choice. Galchenyuk we can debate but look at that draft and he's still probably one of the top 10 most successful players from that draft year to date. And Kotkaniemi is still too early to judge but again came from a draft year with a weak center class where we clearly drafted for need.

Then you look lower down and Timmins found guys like Lehkonen, Mete, Gallagher, Evans, Primeau, and Romanov outside the first round. We have some other really interesting prospects like Norlinder and Harris outside of the first too. All that to say that if you go back and count the number of guys from each round over the past say 10-15 years who ended up being regular NHLers, Timmins is running better than average at his drafting, and I don't think he really flubbed up a top 10 choice either. Has he ever found a McDavid or Kane or Malkin? No. But he also never had a draft choice high enough to grab one of those blue chip stars, and that's not really his fault.

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

Timmins has been around awhile now, both as a scout and assistant GM ... he's a hard no to take over for me and should be one of people fired along with MB.    Despite all his apparent success, at the end of the day how he's presented his opinions to management has clearly fallen short as our drafting record in the last decade is atrocious.    He's part of the problem, not the solution.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

As I said before, if there was ever going to be a time to make a change at coach or GM or both, it would be towards the end of this West Coast road trip. You let it go later than that and your season is likely already toast. But if we continue to do poorly in the next few games, I think Molson will need to look at acting and bringing in a coach who can do better with the younger core, so we don't lose team cohesion. We're lacking a lot of leadership right now and I don't think it helps that we have no captain and a rotating cast of assistant captains. With Weber, Danault, Price, Byron, Tatar, etc. all departed or injured, the team needed to identify who was going to take ownership for leading the team and they let it slip by failing to appoint anyone. No one person in the room has the authority or responsibility to lead, so it comes down on the coaches even more to get that job done, and they frankly are failing at it. Coming home from a long trip and getting to play games at home in front of your fans is a good time to re-energize your team and make it that fans are excited to cheer you for something rather than booing you and demanding change.

A couple of thoughts on replacements for Marc Bergevin outside of the Patrick Roy box that everyone is discussing:

- Mathieu Darche... former Habs player, French-speaking, background in business, and currently the Director of Hockey Ops with the two-time champion Lightning. He might be the kind of up and comer that the Habs target as an executive here.

- Trevor Timmins... I know he's taken his fair share of hate here, but his draft record is actually above average when you compare him to his peers. And if you believe his interviews, he's gone on record as saying which players he was most excited about and which ones he didn't get that the Habs were looking at, and he's been right in his disagreements with his GM's on a lot of these. The prime example is where he stated he'd have taken Alex Debrincat and Sam Girard with the two picks the Habs gave to Chicago in the Andrew Shaw trade, and he said this before either player was an established NHL force, so this wasn't entirely revisionist. He's now our assistant GM, so he would definitely provide some continuity all the while providing perhaps a different viewpoint on what's valued. I also like that as a former head scout, he'll probably place value in picks and young players and not sacrifice the future.

- Vincent Damphousse... he's on RDS right now from time to time, and he publicly admitted he was interested in the job when Bergevin was hired. Was a great hockey player, probably doesn't have the credentials to move into a GM job, but might get consideration being around the team and being Francophone.

- Martin Lapointe... started with Bergevin as our Director of Player Development and has now taken over from Timmins as the Director of Amateur Scouting, so like TT, has a history and knowledge of the team that would make the transition easier. Speaks French, played hockey, ticks a lot of the boxes. Hard to know what his own personal philosophy is though as he doesn't do a lot of public appearances with the media.

- Martin Madden Jr... a very very interesting candidate whose name has been in rumors over the past year or two as well. He's been a scout for several teams but for over a decade has been with the Ducks and was their Director of Amateur Scouting and now their Assistant GM. Anaheim, for what it's worth, has one of the best young talent pools in the league right now, and much of that might come down to Madden. The kicker? He's from Quebec City and still lives there in the off-season. He went to McGill, he speaks French, and many in league circles see him as being the next Julien Brisebois in terms of an ascending future GM.

So I'll jump back to my earlier point about coming home from the West Coast with a new GM or coach, and Madden might literally be a guy you could bring home with you from California. If the decision were up to me, I'd very honestly be between Madden and Timmins, two guys with a background in scouting, who understand the need to draft and develop well but who are young enough to bring a fresh mindset to the table. I definitely see both as being better options than Patrick Roy or some of the less experienced names tossed about simply because they're Francophones. Darche could also have potential but likely needs some more experience first.

Personally, I’d prefer to remain inside the “Patrick Roy box”. But, as fantastically fun it would be to see him come in as GM and finish the year behind the bench as head coach, getting an up close evaluation of what we’re cooking with. I think the best option would be as President of hockey opps, a’la Sakic/Shannahan. Then, as you suggested, someone like Darche as GM. I imagine Ducharm would likely remain as head coach till at least the end of the season unless there’s already an obvious replacement that Roy/Darche have in mind

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32 minutes ago, 26NCounting said:

Timmons seriously???  All I'm going to say is KK > TTkachuk, if nothing else trade down to draft KK and pick up more asset.  I would put Timmons in charge of an outhouse

1. The Coyotes were set on taking a center as well and reportedly were going to take Kotkaniemi at #5 if available, so there wasn't much opportunity for a trade down.

2. Kotkaniemi was the consensus #1 center in the draft and we all know the Habs needed/wanted a center. It could be that Bergevin told Timmins to draft a center.

3. There's nothing to say YET that Tkachuk will be better than Kotkaniemi. Tkachuk has been playing on a bad team and getting 1st line minutes and PP time. Sure, he's socred more points, but he's doing that with greater opportunity and his defensive game is weak. Both kids are only 21. I'll wait and see how they fare down the line, and yes, maybe Tkachuk will have the better career, but that doesn't mean he would have been a good fit for the Habs. With his defensive play, there's a reasonable chance that Julien would have benched him or had him on the 4th line until he proved he could be more responsible.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

1. The Coyotes were set on taking a center as well and reportedly were going to take Kotkaniemi at #5 if available, so there wasn't much opportunity for a trade down.

2. Kotkaniemi was the consensus #1 center in the draft and we all know the Habs needed/wanted a center. It could be that Bergevin told Timmins to draft a center.

3. There's nothing to say YET that Tkachuk will be better than Kotkaniemi. Tkachuk has been playing on a bad team and getting 1st line minutes and PP time. Sure, he's socred more points, but he's doing that with greater opportunity and his defensive game is weak. Both kids are only 21. I'll wait and see how they fare down the line, and yes, maybe Tkachuk will have the better career, but that doesn't mean he would have been a good fit for the Habs. With his defensive play, there's a reasonable chance that Julien would have benched him or had him on the 4th line until he proved he could be more responsible.

I’ll have to disagree that Kotkaneimi was the consensus #1 C leading up to the draft. For some unknown reason his name rose up the charts in the couple weeks leading up to the draft, once we had secured the #3 pick (well after these kids finished their seasons, so it’s not like there was any reason for any player to magically climb the charts). But until then the top two C’s were Veleno and Hayton. I’m not saying either of these two are better than KK, or will be in the future, but they we’re definitely ranked higher. And neither of the three had any business being drafted in the top 5, let alone the top 3.

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37 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

I’ll have to disagree that Kotkaneimi was the consensus #1 C leading up to the draft. For some unknown reason his name rose up the charts in the couple weeks leading up to the draft, once we had secured the #3 pick (well after these kids finished their seasons, so it’s not like there was any reason for any player to magically climb the charts). But until then the top two C’s were Veleno and Hayton. I’m not saying either of these two are better than KK, or will be in the future, but they we’re definitely ranked higher. And neither of the three had any business being drafted in the top 5, let alone the top 3.

Absolutely true that Kotkaniemi was not the consensus #1 center 6-12 months before the draft, but his stock rose late, after the WJC and going forward. Also important to remember JK was young for his draft year, so many saw him as being a late riser with more untapped potential and room for growth. Going into the draft, there will always be discrepancy, but pre-draft, most experts had JK as the first center to go: The Sporting News had him as the #1, Sportsnet had him as the #1, all three draft experts on nhl.com had as the #1, The Hockey Writers had him as the #1. Bob Mckenzie's survey of NHL scouts had Kotkaniemi as the top center and #5 overall, ahead of Hayton at 11 and Veleno at 14.

Again, this is not to say these sources thought Kotkaniemi should have gone #3 overall, but most pundits had him as the top center going in the draft, and the scouts' consensus from Mckenzie supported his being the top center talent, so this wasn't just the Habs that believed this. So I'm not here to pronounce on whether Timmins made the right or wrong choice. Only time will tell. But what I am saying is that it was known that MB had been having difficulty finding elite center talent and that the best centers in the league tend to be drafted in the top 5-10 spots in a draft, something the Canadiens had not had regular access to. So it was not unreasonable to use the #3 choice on the best center in the draft and take your shot while you had the chance. And as I said, if Bergevin was set on using his pick on fixing his center problem, then Timmins made the right choice, and I don't think we can fault him for not taking Tkachuk. In the big picture of things, the scouts are responsible for ranking the prospects, but if a team its drafting for need, that directive usually comes from the GM, and there was clearly a need there. I don't think it's fair to put that on Timmins and it's not even something where I'd say Bergevin made a mistake.

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

1. The Coyotes were set on taking a center as well and reportedly were going to take Kotkaniemi at #5 if available, so there wasn't much opportunity for a trade down.

2. Kotkaniemi was the consensus #1 center in the draft and we all know the Habs needed/wanted a center. It could be that Bergevin told Timmins to draft a center.

3. There's nothing to say YET that Tkachuk will be better than Kotkaniemi. Tkachuk has been playing on a bad team and getting 1st line minutes and PP time. Sure, he's socred more points, but he's doing that with greater opportunity and his defensive game is weak. Both kids are only 21. I'll wait and see how they fare down the line, and yes, maybe Tkachuk will have the better career, but that doesn't mean he would have been a good fit for the Habs. With his defensive play, there's a reasonable chance that Julien would have benched him or had him on the 4th line until he proved he could be more responsible.

yeah. no one knows exactly who makes the final decisions (i would bet its bergevin) but its telling that we've had trouble with first rounders (especially when TT has actually mentioned other players we could have gotten but didnt - before they became stars) but then we draft really well in rounds 2 - 3 making me think MB gives him more of a free reign with those picks. 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

yeah. no one knows exactly who makes the final decisions (i would bet its bergevin) but its telling that we've had trouble with first rounders (especially when TT has actually mentioned other players we could have gotten but didnt - before they became stars) but then we draft really well in rounds 2 - 3 making me think MB gives him more of a free reign with those picks. 

If you go back to when TT started in 2003 and then look at the next decade, the Habs actually have the collection of draft picks with the most total games played in the NHL since. It suggests that even if Timmins isn't getting access to those #1 and #2 overall picks, he's nailing a lot of those lower-round picks who go on to become NHLers. In 2003, he picked 4 players who went on to suit up for over 300 games. Same thing for 2004 and 2005. I've already talked about he blew the 2007 draft out of the park. Yes, it's been a bit rougher in certain years, but even in those leaner years, he was hitting on a bonafide NHLer in most of them... Gallagher in 2010, Beaulieu in 2011, Galchenyuk in 2012, DLR and Lehkonen in 2013, Evans in 2014, Sergachev and Mete in 2016, Kotkaniemi and Romanov already from 2018. And again, we need to remember that 1 NHLer per draft per year is running about average.

I think it's important to remember that

1. Things aren't like they were in the old days where the Habs had first crack at Quebec-born talent and where Quebec/Canadian talent made up a much higher percentage of league players.

2. There are now 32 teams in the league, not 20 or 25. There are also 7 rounds of picks as a result, not 9. So it's much harder to hit on picks now then it was 30 or 40 years ago. It's also harder to scout and compare young players who are playing their minor hockey across the world in different leagues.

3. The Habs have only picked top 5 three times in Timmins' tenure and top 10 a total of five times. He's picked Price, Kotkaniemi, Galchenyuk, Kostitsyn, and Sergachev, and frankly none of those were flops. They've all become bona fide NHLers and in Price's case a league MVP and future hall-of-famer.

So now let's go back and look at the top scorers in the league last year... McDavid (1st Overall), Draisaitl (3rd OV), Marchand (3rd rd), Marner (4th OV), Rantanen (10th OV), Matthews (1st OV), Kane (1st OV), Mackinnon (1st OV), Scheifele (7th OV), Crosby (1st OV), Stone (6th rd), Huberdeau (3rd OV), Panarin (undrafted), Barkov (2nd OV), Perron (26th OV).

Let's look at that list... of the top 10 scorers in the league last year, 9 were top 10 picks, 7 were top 4 picks, and 5 were 1st overall picks. Only Marchand broke the top 10 as a non-top 10 choice. Through the top 15 scorers, another 2 were top 3 choices (so 11 of 15 being top 10 choices and 9 being top 4). The Habs had a chance at grabbing exactly zero of those top 10 choices. In every single draft in which those guys were chosen, the Habs' first selection came after those guys were already off the board. Yes, they passed on Perron twice in 2007 but they used their two choices on Ryan McDonagh and Max Pacioretty, both of whom are frankly better than Perron to begin with. So of the rest, the only players they passed on were Marchand, Stone, and Panarin, and if you want to say Timmins/Bergevin/etc. were so below average at their jobs, well then that means every single head scout and GM were too because each of them passed on those players multiple times as well.

Bottom line for me is that I see people blaming Timmins for not drafting elite talent, but as I'm showing, he's never really had that opportunity. When he was in the top 5, he drafted an elite Carey Price and nailed it and had two decent choices in weak drafts. He certainly hasn't had a complete flub of a pick at the top like a Patrik Stefan or Alex Daigle. This is also why I keep saying that the worst thing that can happen for the Habs is to continually fall in the pack of mediocre teams, never being good enough to be a challenger nor bad enough to get a bunch of top 5 picks and re-stock. We're never going to have elite talent here unless we get lucky at hitting on a later pick, and the odds of that are greatly reduced.

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There's some chatter on social media (no reputable sources though) about whether Bergevin being with the Hawks during the Kyle Beach era could be an impediment to his signing a new contract. He wasn't named in any of the documents but everyone around him that he worked with was named and Beach has said himself that he's sure all the players and everyone in the organization knew, given the names he was called afterwards. So have to wonder

1. Does Bergevin know he was part of a meeting and that it could eventually come out that he knew something? Is Bergevin considering walking away on his own terms to try to stay out of the limelight?

2. Does Molson want to see how this whole thing plays out before offering Bergevin a longer-term deal?

Again pure speculation but the fact that Bergevin was there and is not negotiating a new deal now is a bit odd and is going to draw this type of consideration... Stephane Waite was also a coach with Chicago then but obviously has already been relieved of his duties here for other reasons in the past.

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