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#67 Max Pacioretty 2017-18


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22 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I'd take the 'C' off his jersey. 

I know its tough to put stock in "intangibles" but over and over we hear how Weber has helped players. Yesterday an article on Davidson came out saying he didnt know what to do after his terrible training camp so he went and talked to Weber.   

I dont know if Shea is already the defacto captain & frankly I have no idea if it really makes much difference but if we felt it was so important to get him that we would give up our most dynamic defensman in decades to do so, maybe we should give the C to Weber already. 

Maybe that would help Patches get back to 'his game' - shoot, dont think. 

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He's always owned up to his slumps though.  He's always been a streaky player (as most goal scorers are) and at some point he'll bounce back.  The problem is that he want to succeed so badly as captain that I think it negatively affects him and, at times, prolongs his slumps.  He said he's 'losing sleep' over his poor play and the team's poor star.  Now, maybe he'd do that either way (captain or not) but you have to think the added pressure he's putting on himself because he's captain is doing more harm than good. 

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Right, I have no concerns that Pacioretty himself will bust his slump, score a whack of goals, and finish with 30+ on the season. He's a proven performer but he's a streaky one. What I lack is the confidence in him to help the team through a slump and carry the squad on his shoulders.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Right, I have no concerns that Pacioretty himself will bust his slump, score a whack of goals, and finish with 30+ on the season. He's a proven performer but he's a streaky one. What I lack is the confidence in him to help the team through a slump and carry the squad on his shoulders.

I agree with this and have often felt it is not a great idea to give the C to a high scoring forward just because he is that, if he goes into a slump he has a lot more on his mind and will most likely find it tougher to get himself out of that slump if he is also dealing with a slumping team. a solid defenceman or a good quality character forward is often a better choice as there are less expectations on their game and they tend not to be streaky players who have a games outcome hanging on them scoring a timely goal or carrying the team on their shoulders. i don't think you need to be a star to be captain you have to be respected by at least most of your team and lead by example. if you happen to be a star and can pull it off great but i don't think you have to be one.

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16 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

He's gotta stop doing this: aid44661-v4-728px-Float-on-Your-Back-Ste

 

And start doing this: Cole-Body-Check.jpg

When the smallest guy on the team (Hudon), has 25 hits (2nd only to Weber's 30),,, compared to Max's 6 hits, you know something is very wrong. 

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He's been a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL for half a decade by playing a speedy transition game, shooting in volume, controlling possession, and fooling goalies with his release. He's not suddenly going to start scoring again by playing like Gallagher or Byron. For all the talk of his streakiness I don't think people appreciate how rare Pacioretty's scoring consistency is. Since he became an NHL regular (2011-12), there are only 29 players to have more than one 30 goal season. Ovechkin's done it six times. Pacioretty (and nobody else) has done it five times.  He's not a perfect player, and he's not a particularly entertaining player to watch, but he's been an elite forward his whole career because of his play style, not in spite of it. 

Pacioretty also has 143 more career hits than Crosby in 221 less games...

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13 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

He's been a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL for half a decade by playing a speedy transition game, shooting in volume, controlling possession, and fooling goalies with his release. He's not suddenly going to start scoring again by playing like Gallagher or Byron. For all the talk of his streakiness I don't think people appreciate how rare Pacioretty's scoring consistency is. Since he became an NHL regular (2011-12), there are only 29 players to have more than one 30 goal season. Ovechkin's done it six times. Pacioretty (and nobody else) has done it five times.  He's not a perfect player, and he's not a particularly entertaining player to watch, but he's been an elite forward his whole career because of his play style, not in spite of it. 

Pacioretty also has 143 more career hits than Crosby in 221 less games...

Pretty much agree with all of this. He is what he is, and for people to expect him to be the complete package,,,, NOT going to happen. I'm OK with his 30+ goals every year. With that said,,, i'm not against him being traded for equal or better value.

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This situation is starting to remind me a little of Phil Kessel's time in Toronto. Phil was a goal scorer, but not much else. Over his first 5 years in Toronto he scored 30, 32, 37, 20 (shortened season), and 37 goals, not to mention the assists that went along with those seasons AND on a team that was terrible. Yet, his entire time in Toronto, Phil seemed to be the media whipping boy. It was so bad at times that his teammates had to stick up for him, and he wasn't even their captain. Why did all this occur? Because the Leafs were starving for a leader and Phil was expected to be more that he is. They expected him to be a game changer. To carrying the team and it just wasn't going to happen. 

I think the same can be said for Max. Max is a great scorer (when not in a slump) but I just don't see him as much of a leader. He should have never been named captain in the first place.

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3 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree with this and have often felt it is not a great idea to give the C to a high scoring forward just because he is that, if he goes into a slump he has a lot more on his mind and will most likely find it tougher to get himself out of that slump if he is also dealing with a slumping team. a solid defenceman or a good quality character forward is often a better choice as there are less expectations on their game and they tend not to be streaky players who have a games outcome hanging on them scoring a timely goal or carrying the team on their shoulders. i don't think you need to be a star to be captain you have to be respected by at least most of your team and lead by example. if you happen to be a star and can pull it off great but i don't think you have to be one.

Having to be respected I believe is a given considering the players voted him in as their Captain, rumored at the time to not even be a close vote. I think fans and media both want to see someone overreacting. Breaking sticks running around hitting ect. but we have no idea what is said in the room. It also seems with the new generation that they don't respond to someone yelling and screaming or kicking but. More on the encouraging being positive side is more the new way.   

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1 hour ago, MuddyWaterMoose said:

This situation is starting to remind me a little of Phil Kessel's time in Toronto. Phil was a goal scorer, but not much else. Over his first 5 years in Toronto he scored 30, 32, 37, 20 (shortened season), and 37 goals, not to mention the assists that went along with those seasons AND on a team that was terrible. Yet, his entire time in Toronto, Phil seemed to be the media whipping boy. It was so bad at times that his teammates had to stick up for him, and he wasn't even their captain. Why did all this occur? Because the Leafs were starving for a leader and Phil was expected to be more that he is. They expected him to be a game changer. To carrying the team and it just wasn't going to happen. 

I think the same can be said for Max. Max is a great scorer (when not in a slump) but I just don't see him as much of a leader. He should have never been named captain in the first place.

max is no phil kessel, the media in toronto was calling kessel lazy and over weight, there's no comparison, its been quite mild for max here in montreal

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6 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Having to be respected I believe is a given considering the players voted him in as their Captain, rumored at the time to not even be a close vote. I think fans and media both want to see someone overreacting. Breaking sticks running around hitting ect. but we have no idea what is said in the room. It also seems with the new generation that they don't respond to someone yelling and screaming or kicking but. More on the encouraging being positive side is more the new way.   

Yup.....everyone gets a diploma, even those who fail. One of the most asinine things to ever happen. 

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8 hours ago, Noob616 said:

He's been a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL for half a decade by playing a speedy transition game, shooting in volume, controlling possession, and fooling goalies with his release. He's not suddenly going to start scoring again by playing like Gallagher or Byron. For all the talk of his streakiness I don't think people appreciate how rare Pacioretty's scoring consistency is. Since he became an NHL regular (2011-12), there are only 29 players to have more than one 30 goal season. Ovechkin's done it six times. Pacioretty (and nobody else) has done it five times.  He's not a perfect player, and he's not a particularly entertaining player to watch, but he's been an elite forward his whole career because of his play style, not in spite of it. 

Pacioretty also has 143 more career hits than Crosby in 221 less games...

I'd say his line mates are the ones controlling possession. I'm not saying he needs to crash the opponent but getting a little more involved physically would probably show some leadership on the ice.  

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3 hours ago, habs1952 said:

I'd say his line mates are the ones controlling possession. I'm not saying he needs to crash the opponent but getting a little more involved physically would probably show some leadership on the ice.  

Have you ever seen Max get involved physically?

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15 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Yup.....everyone gets a diploma, even those who fail. One of the most asinine things to ever happen. 

I don't disagree , I'm very old school myself. I'm fine with the old ways. It does seem though some of the young players (and workers in general) it doesn't work anymore. Like Chucky really seamed for a while there to be pouting instead of working his way back up the line up. The old school coaching or being a captain, the new generation doesn't respond the same way. It's a tough line to be firm and get your point across and hurting feelings or for someone to feel they're being wronged. I work with young men in an industrial job with people from all over the U.S. . It's tough to be firm and nurturing explaining what you want and need and what's expected. I don't work with guys that are millionaires whom have been sports stars at different levels their whole life either. It must be tough for the modern day coaches to coach and not be felt "mean"! 

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3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I don't disagree , I'm very old school myself. I'm fine with the old ways. It does seem though some of the young players (and workers in general) it doesn't work anymore. Like Chucky really seamed for a while there to be pouting instead of working his way back up the line up. The old school coaching or being a captain, the new generation doesn't respond the same way. It's a tough line to be firm and get your point across and hurting feelings or for someone to feel they're being wronged. I work with young men in an industrial job with people from all over the U.S. . It's tough to be firm and nurturing explaining what you want and need and what's expected. I don't work with guys that are millionaires whom have been sports stars at different levels their whole life either. It must be tough for the modern day coaches to coach and not be felt "mean"! 

Yup...work hard and you will be rewarded. No one ever got anything handed to them. They earned it. Do what your hired and paid to do and your coach/boss will sing your praises otherwise find another way to earn a living. I could go on. I'm not saying every player will be perfect every night because that just isn't possible but by golly put in your best effort. 

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15 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

Have you ever seen Max get involved physically?

The odd game yes and when he has he's led the team and had a great game. But I think most of those games were before he became captain. For him I think the captaincy has become an anchor.

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22 hours ago, habs1952 said:

The odd game yes and when he has he's led the team and had a great game. But I think most of those games were before he became captain. For him I think the captaincy has become an anchor.

I agree totally.  A few years ago he was a very responsible player defensively who got physically involved.  Since becoming captain, less so.  There may be other reasons, but for me he simply lets the stress of the job get to him too much.  His recent comments both in the playoffs and in the past week seem like a cry for help to me.  The thing that I think would help him most would be to strip off the C, but doing it diplomatically of course, as a win-win for all

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

8 more shots on goal with nothing to show for it. I know he's streaky, but this is getting ridiculous.

he had 1 or 2 decent looks, but meh. he can spam shots all he wants, the book is out on max. hes an opportunistic scorer, he does almost literally nothing else to help his cause. he cant stickhandle for beans, therefore he cant beat anyone 1 on 1 or make some space for himself.....he doesnt get involved physically like a gallagher to create chances that way...his passing is like F- by nhl standards.....and the worst part, he doesnt have a guy playing with him who knows how to do those things a la radulov last year.  

People are getting on my "trade max" bandwagon for the logical reasons...i.e he nets us the best return out of any asset we have, but here's the real one. we absolutely can not let this juicy contract expire or even get close to expiring. 

1. its part of his vale as a trade chip that his  cap hit is so nice, every year we burn drops his trade value

2. if we re up him to 7 or 8 mill we are officially screwed.  that money needs to be given to a real elite forward, and that is not mr. nonfactoretty.

so because of 1 and 2, I care a lot less about the return on a trade than I should. its imperative we move on from this guy asap, while that contract still has some term on it

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27 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

he had 1 or 2 decent looks, but meh. he can spam shots all he wants, the book is out on max. hes an opportunistic scorer, he does almost literally nothing else to help his cause. he cant stickhandle for beans, therefore he cant beat anyone 1 on 1 or make some space for himself.....he doesnt get involved physically like a gallagher to create chances that way...his passing is like F- by nhl standards.....and the worst part, he doesnt have a guy playing with him who knows how to do those things a la radulov last year.  

People are getting on my "trade max" bandwagon for the logical reasons...i.e he nets us the best return out of any asset we have, but here's the real one. we absolutely can not let this juicy contract expire or even get close to expiring. 

1. its part of his vale as a trade chip that his  cap hit is so nice, every year we burn drops his trade value

2. if we re up him to 7 or 8 mill we are officially screwed.  that money needs to be given to a real elite forward, and that is not mr. nonfactoretty.

so because of 1 and 2, I care a lot less about the return on a trade than I should. its imperative we move on from this guy asap, while that contract still has some term on it

Whoever we got in return would have to replace his scoring, and in theory, be "better" than Max. We would have to find a trading partner who is near the cap, has a scorer who they can trade, (no NTC or NMC), and who might be thinking of tanking. It's too early for any team to think about tanking, so it might be a while before we see a bonafide elite player heading this way. IMO, we have to bite the bullet until the trade deadline.

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