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I have a question

Is now the time to go all in? Would you be willing to move prospect not in the NHL and not named Caufield to take a run at the cup?

Would you make any of the following or similar trades knowing you are potentially giving up the next big names for one or two immediate shots at the cup?

Garland + Brassard for Guhle + Lehkonen + 2021 1st + 2021 3rd (Chi)

Ekholm for Armia + Struble + Tuch + 2021 2nd (Mnt)

Subban (half retained) for Edmundson + Harris + 2022 2nd (this is for insurance incase either Weber or Petry go down in the playoffs cause lets face it if that happens we are dead in the water)

Our lineup would be

Drouin-Suzuki-Anderson

Garland-Kotkaniemi-Toffoli

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Brassard-Evans-Perry

Byron, Frolik 

Ekholm-Weber

Kulak\Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-Subban

Chiarot (IR), Mete

Price

Allen

 

 

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56 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I have a question

Is now the time to go all in? Would you be willing to move prospect not in the NHL and not named Caufield to take a run at the cup?

Would you make any of the following or similar trades knowing you are potentially giving up the next big names for one or two immediate shots at the cup?

Garland + Brassard for Guhle + Lehkonen + 2021 1st + 2021 3rd (Chi)

Ekholm for Armia + Struble + Tuch + 2021 2nd (Mnt)

Subban (half retained) for Edmundson + Harris + 2022 2nd (this is for insurance incase either Weber or Petry go down in the playoffs cause lets face it if that happens we are dead in the water)

Our lineup would be

Drouin-Suzuki-Anderson

Garland-Kotkaniemi-Toffoli

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Brassard-Evans-Perry

Byron, Frolik 

Ekholm-Weber

Kulak\Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-Subban

Chiarot (IR), Mete

Price

Allen

 

 

Probably no to Brassard, but Garland intrigues me. Still way too much. If I 'm giving up a first or 2, it has to be a 1/2 D coming back. Replace Struble with Mete. Unfortunately,  no way ever Bergevin brings back Subban,  after running him outta town before his NTC kicked in. Also, no way Bergevin trades Edmundson so soon. What would that convey to other UFA's? I'd do it though. How about targeting Dumba? I'd use some of those pieces that you mentioned. 

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1 minute ago, electron58 said:

Probably no to Brassard, but Garland intrigues me. Still way too much. If I 'm giving up a first or 2, it has to be a 1/2 D coming back. Replace Struble with Mete. Unfortunately,  no way ever Bergevin brings back Subban,  after running him outta town before his NTC kicked in. Also, no way Bergevin trades Edmundson so soon. What would that convey to other UFA's? I'd do it though. How about targeting Dumba? I'd use some of those pieces that you mentioned. 

Like I said none of the trades or targets really matter, the question is would you move all in and trade some\most of our prospects not in the NHL and not named Caufield and picks for 2 immediate runs at a cup? The trades above were just to outline the holes needed to fill in the lineup.

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27 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Like I said none of the trades or targets really matter, the question is would you move all in and trade some\most of our prospects not in the NHL and not named Caufield and picks for 2 immediate runs at a cup? The trades above were just to outline the holes needed to fill in the lineup.

The short answer to your question is no - the analysis follows

I still don't think we are strong enough even with filling the holes you mention and giving up the prospects to make 2 immediate runs at the cup. The depth is still not there IMO Weber isn't as capable as we think on the 1st pairing RHD even with Ekholm (and noted Subban backup). We have not demonstrated sufficient experienced strength down the middle with Nick, KK, Danault (who is unlikely to be here year 2), and Evans so your lineup is counting on a lot of progression. Drouin although having a better year would still need improvement to be a top LW that could compete for the coup.  Same with a weak Tatar who is unlikely to be here year 2. Brassard is 33 without much left in the tank. The LW side other than Toffoli is still not at contending status.  Even if we add a F/A and Caufield for year 2. We can be competitive in year 2 but I believe it is year 3 2022 when we really start to see this team take off and be contenders with our prospects mixed with vets and Weber retired. 

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

I have a question

Is now the time to go all in? Would you be willing to move prospect not in the NHL and not named Caufield to take a run at the cup?

Would you make any of the following or similar trades knowing you are potentially giving up the next big names for one or two immediate shots at the cup?

Garland + Brassard for Guhle + Lehkonen + 2021 1st + 2021 3rd (Chi)

Ekholm for Armia + Struble + Tuch + 2021 2nd (Mnt)

Subban (half retained) for Edmundson + Harris + 2022 2nd (this is for insurance incase either Weber or Petry go down in the playoffs cause lets face it if that happens we are dead in the water)

Our lineup would be

Drouin-Suzuki-Anderson

Garland-Kotkaniemi-Toffoli

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Brassard-Evans-Perry

Byron, Frolik 

Ekholm-Weber

Kulak\Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-Subban

Chiarot (IR), Mete

Price

Allen

 

 

For me its a no.  Im just not even close to believing we're contenders.  I think we're considerably better than what we've shown at times this year - i think we should easily be a top 2 team in the north - but I dont think we'd fare well against the Caps, Avalanche, Lightning, Knights etc. 

Could we surprise in the playoffs? Sure.  Heck, we could even go all the way, but i dont think its a particularly high chance and as such I wouldnt be in favour of losing Guhle, Struble, Harris, Tuch, 1st, 2nd and 3rd picks + Armia, Lehks etc. 

If you made those moves our prospect pool would be heavily depleted.  For sure we'd be better on the ice right now but I honestly think its a while before a Suzuki/Kotkaneimi-led team is a real contender. I think by that time guys like Guhle will actually be legit NHL players and some of the guys we'd be trading for may no longer be. 

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3 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Like I said none of the trades or targets really matter, the question is would you move all in and trade some\most of our prospects not in the NHL and not named Caufield and picks for 2 immediate runs at a cup? The trades above were just to outline the holes needed to fill in the lineup.

It's never too early to upgrade at a position of need. Would I give up a first plus prospects for Dumba? In a heartbeat. As long as it is not too much an overpay. I still think we should have went after PLD. Even if it cost KK+.

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1 hour ago, electron58 said:

It's never too early to upgrade at a position of need. Would I give up a first plus prospects for Dumba? In a heartbeat. As long as it is not too much an overpay. I still think we should have went after PLD. Even if it cost KK+.

I've been talking about how acquiring Dumba would be a good move for a while now. I've talked about how I would have dealt Weber for a few years and then gone after Dumba as a potential replacement. You would have been just as good now and you would have been better set for the future and on a lower cap hit. Too late, that ship has sailed. The bottom line, though, is that while the situation for the left side of the D is atrocious right now, it's maybe our strongest position of depth in the prospect pool. We have 5 good LHD prospects (Guhle, Norlinder, Struble, Harris, and Fairbrother) on top of Romanov already being here. On the right side, we have Petry and Weber and then Fleury and Brook. It's quickly becoming a position of weakness. Ditto for center, where we could be set for years with Suzuki and Kotkaniemi, but we're also very thin in terms of top end depth. We're one injury or career downturn/failure to fulfill promise away from being right back to where we were 5 years ago. If one of those guys doesn't pan out, we're looking at UFA Danault, unproven Poehling, and depth center Evans. To be honest, I also don't think either one is going to end up being elite. There's still a small chance, but the more likely scenario is that they become a strong 1-2 punch a la Plekanec/Koivu: two really good players who can be here long-term but just not enough to match up with McDavid, Matthews, Crosby, Barzal, etc.

There should be concern. I think we have enough long-term wingers with the club right now, with Ylonen and Caufield on their way, but center and RHD really need to be addressed now insofar as the prospect pool goes. Would be great to add a blue chip prospect at right D or else at guy like Dumba who falls in that 22-27 year-old range and who could be here for 5 years. But unless you're planning on having some top 10 picks in the next few years, it's unlikely we'll be able to add an elite center prospect or a #1 RHD via the draft. We need to look at how we can add other younger guys with the potential to hit those marks but who are still gambles or else other ways of grabbing 1st round picks. Look at how Colorado fared trading Duchene. Look at how Ottawa has sped up their rebuild by trading Karlsson and Stone. Look at how well we came out of the Pacioretty trade. There's value to trading guys nearing the end of their prime before they fall off the cliff. We totally missed that opportunity with Weber and Price. We might still be able to recoup some assets for the likes of Tatar, Danault, or Gallagher. If I'm MB, I'm not looking at Ekholm at all. He's already 30, he's only signed for this year and next, and he isn't good enough to make us a true contender for the Cup. It would be a terrible decision to go all in on him and give up 2-3 key prospects/picks. I'd be happier giving up less to go after Vince Dunn or Jake Bean or Haydn Fleury or Conor Timmins or Victor Soderstrom or Noah Dobson. Go out and get a long-term asset, not someone whom you won't win a Cup with and who won't have value to you when you do have the window to win.

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10 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I've been talking about how acquiring Dumba would be a good move for a while now. I've talked about how I would have dealt Weber for a few years and then gone after Dumba as a potential replacement. You would have been just as good now and you would have been better set for the future and on a lower cap hit. Too late, that ship has sailed. The bottom line, though, is that while the situation for the left side of the D is atrocious right now, it's maybe our strongest position of depth in the prospect pool. We have 5 good LHD prospects (Guhle, Norlinder, Struble, Harris, and Fairbrother) on top of Romanov already being here. On the right side, we have Petry and Weber and then Fleury and Brook. It's quickly becoming a position of weakness. Ditto for center, where we could be set for years with Suzuki and Kotkaniemi, but we're also very thin in terms of top end depth. We're one injury or career downturn/failure to fulfill promise away from being right back to where we were 5 years ago. If one of those guys doesn't pan out, we're looking at UFA Danault, unproven Poehling, and depth center Evans. To be honest, I also don't think either one is going to end up being elite. There's still a small chance, but the more likely scenario is that they become a strong 1-2 punch a la Plekanec/Koivu: two really good players who can be here long-term but just not enough to match up with McDavid, Matthews, Crosby, Barzal, etc.

There should be concern. I think we have enough long-term wingers with the club right now, with Ylonen and Caufield on their way, but center and RHD really need to be addressed now insofar as the prospect pool goes. Would be great to add a blue chip prospect at right D or else at guy like Dumba who falls in that 22-27 year-old range and who could be here for 5 years. But unless you're planning on having some top 10 picks in the next few years, it's unlikely we'll be able to add an elite center prospect or a #1 RHD via the draft. We need to look at how we can add other younger guys with the potential to hit those marks but who are still gambles or else other ways of grabbing 1st round picks. Look at how Colorado fared trading Duchene. Look at how Ottawa has sped up their rebuild by trading Karlsson and Stone. Look at how well we came out of the Pacioretty trade. There's value to trading guys nearing the end of their prime before they fall off the cliff. We totally missed that opportunity with Weber and Price. We might still be able to recoup some assets for the likes of Tatar, Danault, or Gallagher. If I'm MB, I'm not looking at Ekholm at all. He's already 30, he's only signed for this year and next, and he isn't good enough to make us a true contender for the Cup. It would be a terrible decision to go all in on him and give up 2-3 key prospects/picks. I'd be happier giving up less to go after Vince Dunn or Jake Bean or Haydn Fleury or Conor Timmins or Victor Soderstrom or Noah Dobson. Go out and get a long-term asset, not someone whom you won't win a Cup with and who won't have value to you when you do have the window to win.

I'm not that far off from your thoughts. RHD is not as much a concern for me (with Petry at a high level likely for this year plus next 2 and Romanov and likely Guhle in year 3 crossing over as Brook/ Fleury unlikely to be top end), and sure I would love to obtain a Dumba but at what trade piece costs? Our talent in buying F/A Defense has been abysmal re; Alzner, Chiarot and Edmundson. But it could be possible to pick up a RHD in F/A in the future. 

The top end centre is my #1 as you have rightly pointed out for depth, injury, ceiling progression of Suzuki / KK. They are very hard to trade for, as MB has found out - he had to draft KK, and acquire Suzuki as a prospect in the Patches trade. He acquired Danault as a young unproven centre, and struck success albeit not at a #1 level. I doubt that luck can be repeated, and I think that was what MB was hoping for in Jordan Weal.  Buffalo is rumoured to want 3-4 top end pieces for Eichel, and I doubt we do that with a team in our own division. Strome is not a top end centre, and the F/A pool for these is old and IMO has little value. That leaves us the draft, and this is where I say we push some chips in, even though it is a hard to gauge draft. We need to use our trade pieces and move up to increase our odds. We are forecasted to draft around 20th spot or below. The odds of getting top centres at this spot are low (Poehling was at #25). Move into #10-20 range and keep your #20 spot to get two centres from Targets - Raty, Sillinger, Lucius, McTavish, Bourgault, Kent Johnson, Ecklund.

I agree that we have enough wingers - could use some strength at LW however wingers seem easier to buy in F/A or trade for. 

Our trade chips IMO - Byron, Lehkonen, Mete, Chiarot or Edmundson or Kulak, subject to the Kraken Draft if it is a foregone conclusion by intelligence that Allen will be taken and you can't wiggle out of it with the Krakken, then deal Jake Allen,  one of our emerging LHD although I suspect Norlinder and Guhle are off the table, First round pick  to move up for another first, any of our 2nd round or 3rd round picks to move with assets mentioned to another first rounder. And if we could have done it last year - #18 pick C Dawson Mercer (we picked #16), sure looks promising now. 

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9 hours ago, claremont said:

 

Our trade chips IMO - Byron, Lehkonen, Mete, Chiarot or Edmundson or Kulak, subject to the Kraken Draft if it is a foregone conclusion by intelligence that Allen will be taken and you can't wiggle out of it with the Krakken, then deal Jake Allen,  one of our emerging LHD although I suspect Norlinder and Guhle are off the table, First round pick  to move up for another first, any of our 2nd round or 3rd round picks to move with assets mentioned to another first rounder. And if we could have done it last year - #18 pick C Dawson Mercer (we picked #16), sure looks promising now. 

Probably arent getting much in return for Byron, Lehkonen, Mete - they cant crack Montreal's roster on a regular basis

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49 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Probably arent getting much in return for Byron, Lehkonen, Mete - they cant crack Montreal's roster on a regular basis

That's where the picks come in. Sweeten the pot. Maybe we don't get a stud, but should be good for an upgrade somewhere.

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12 hours ago, electron58 said:

That's where the picks come in. Sweeten the pot. Maybe we don't get a stud, but should be good for an upgrade somewhere.

Correct - I’m thinking trade our projected 20th pick for the 10-12th pick or higher  tossing in Mete plus a 2nd if required. Similarly if we see another first round target Centre, then Lehtonen, plus a 2nd and 3rd. If these players don’t factor into our core, then cut them loose. 
I have to believe that GM’s talk or there is some competitive intelligence assessments- if a deal can’t be worked out for the Krakken to leave Jake Allen untouched with lists being declared July 17th post draft , then push him into that draft trade talk too. 

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46 minutes ago, claremont said:

Correct - I’m thinking trade our projected 20th pick for the 10-12th pick or higher  tossing in Mete plus a 2nd if required. Similarly if we see another first round target Centre, then Lehtonen, plus a 2nd and 3rd. If these players don’t factor into our core, then cut them loose. 
I have to believe that GM’s talk or there is some competitive intelligence assessments- if a deal can’t be worked out for the Krakken to leave Jake Allen untouched with lists being declared July 17th post draft , then push him into that draft trade talk too. 

Kind of serious kind of joking, who is this Lehtonen guy you are referring to? Lehtonen plays for Columbus now (that was the joking part), I think you are referring to Lehkonen but not sure if you are referring to Leskinen either lol.

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1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

Kind of serious kind of joking, who is this Lehtonen guy you are referring to? Lehtonen plays for Columbus now (that was the joking part), I think you are referring to Lehkonen but not sure if you are referring to Leskinen either lol.

damn - I caught the Campabee82 typo flu!

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If this deal happens,,,, where exactly does he slot in? I would guess that Evans becomes the odd man out. If it means KK or Nick being moved down the lineup (4th line) then that IMO is a travesty.

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