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59 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Drouin +++

I don't think he has enough value to get us a true first pairing LHD. it takes two to make it happen are you going to give up a blue chip stud Dman for Drouin a talented support winger who should be a second line player on a really good team? 

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1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

I am pretty sure they see it but how do you fix it? it will take a magic trade to do it! no little fix it trade here it will be a big gulp trade like the one that brought Webber here in the first place that means someone meaningful will have to go as much for the money as for the talent! to get a blue chip Dman we will have to let go of a blue chip forward and probably a prospect anything less won't get us the kind of quality we need.

Right but lets say you're the coach: do you not at least try changing around the pairs?   If Petry -Kulak, Romanov-Weber doesnt work, then what have you lost?  Its not working right now....

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3 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I don't think he has enough value to get us a true first pairing LHD. it takes two to make it happen are you going to give up a blue chip stud Dman for Drouin a talented support winger who should be a second line player on a really good team? 

Depends on the age (and contract status) of the DMan but yes, I agree that Drouin alone probably wont cut it unless you're trading for Duncan Keith or something (not suggesting it!!)

My guess is to get someone of decent quality you need to give up:

Drouin + Mete/or/Chairot + 1st or 2nd round pick. 


If its a good enough, under 25 year old player, i think its still worth it. 

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35 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I don't think he has enough value to get us a true first pairing LHD. it takes two to make it happen are you going to give up a blue chip stud Dman for Drouin a talented support winger who should be a second line player on a really good team? 

That's what the pluses +++ are for. Ofcourse you will have to add.

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35 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Right but lets say you're the coach: do you not at least try changing around the pairs?   If Petry -Kulak, Romanov-Weber doesnt work, then what have you lost?  Its not working right now....

I agree. I think they thought Edmundson was the answer. Not sure if they had an internal number of games for trial. Before they try someone else?

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12 minutes ago, electron58 said:

I agree. I think they thought Edmundson was the answer. Not sure if they had an internal number of games for trial. Before they try someone else?

I think - and i mean obviously this is speculation - they think:

our RD are, in order:   Weber>Petry>players on their off side>Fleury

our LD are, in order:  Chairot>Edmundson>Kulak>Romanov>Mete etc

 

So i think when Chairot went down they bumped the "next best" guy there.  

If thats the case, i disagree with a lot of that assessment but its certainly how they are playing these guys

 

 

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Per Arpon Basu, belief is Weber has been playing through a shoulder injury for a while


This is speculation, obviously, but if true: why the heck is he not being forced to sit?  As seen with the broken foot a couple of years back, Shea Weber would play through basically anything if allowed.  He's not playing well, he's actively hurting the team, he's also hurting his confidence  - and if there's an actual reason? Sit him

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56 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Per Arpon Basu, belief is Weber has been playing through a shoulder injury for a while


This is speculation, obviously, but if true: why the heck is he not being forced to sit?  As seen with the broken foot a couple of years back, Shea Weber would play through basically anything if allowed.  He's not playing well, he's actively hurting the team, he's also hurting his confidence  - and if there's an actual reason? Sit him

If it's true then the only thing i can speculate is that it's the type of injury that only gets resolved with season ending surgery. Maybe his choices  are to play with the pain or hang em up. This could be the reason MB overloaded on D at the trade deadline.

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19 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

If it's true then the only thing i can speculate is that it's the type of injury that only gets resolved with season ending surgery. Maybe his choices  are to play with the pain or hang em up. This could be the reason MB overloaded on D at the trade deadline.

Interesting point.  Whatever it is, playing him 1st pair minutes/matchups is not working.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, hard to say what to do with Weber (if he is injured). I mean, the roster isn't very deep on D. Lots of options... Not a lot of good options.

True.  You could push Shea back to 3rd pair & 15 minutes a night & he'd probably be fine but  the rest of the pairs would probably look pretty horrible.


One of my friends who is a knowledgeable Chicago fan said that if you could pair Gustafsson with the right partner he could give you top 4  minutes.   Maybe Merrell is that guy

Edmundson - Petry

Merrell - Gustafsson 

Romanov - Weber


Although there's no way they keep Chairot out of the lineup. 

 

I really dont know any more. 

 

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16 hours ago, maas_art said:

True.  You could push Shea back to 3rd pair & 15 minutes a night & he'd probably be fine but  the rest of the pairs would probably look pretty horrible.


One of my friends who is a knowledgeable Chicago fan said that if you could pair Gustafsson with the right partner he could give you top 4  minutes.   Maybe Merrell is that guy

Edmundson - Petry

Merrell - Gustafsson 

Romanov - Weber


Although there's no way they keep Chairot out of the lineup. 

 

I really dont know any more. 

 

Yeah. It's just a quantity vs. quality situation. We have tons of options on D. It's just unfortunate that many of them are overpaid (e.g. Weber, Chiarot, Edmundson) and many of them are bottom pairing guys. I'll cut Edmundson some slack because he seems to be a good partner for Petry.

Kulak, Gustafsson, Merrill, Chiarot, Ouellet, Leskinen... I don't see a lot that's exciting in that group. We also have so many left-shots on D now. I really don't have a clue what the pairs should be after Edmundson-Petry. No idea who could/should play with Weber anymore.
 

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8 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah. It's just a quantity vs. quality situation. We have tons of options on D. It's just unfortunate that many of them are overpaid (e.g. Weber, Chiarot, Edmundson) and many of them are bottom pairing guys. I'll cut Edmundson some slack because he seems to be a good partner for Petry.

Kulak, Gustafsson, Merrill, Chiarot, Ouellet, Leskinen... I don't see a lot that's exciting in that group. We also have so many left-shots on D now. I really don't have a clue what the pairs should be after Edmundson-Petry. No idea who could/should play with Weber anymore.
 

These would be my parameters for deciding on D men:

- Petry needs to be on the top pairing.

- Romanov and Kulak should be in the line-up somewhere and both be on the left side.

 - Weber should be in the line-up but getting less than 20 minutes a night.

Past that, I don't care too too much which of Edmundson, Chiarot, Merrill, Gustafsson, etc. get ice time. I'm in favor of Edmundson-Petry for now just cause it's worked and it frees up Romanov and Kulak to play the other pairings. Personally I'd go with

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Weber

Kulak-Merrill

as my first go-to and then work from there.

 

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On 4/16/2021 at 4:56 PM, BigTed3 said:

These would be my parameters for deciding on D men:

- Petry needs to be on the top pairing.

- Romanov and Kulak should be in the line-up somewhere and both be on the left side.

 - Weber should be in the line-up but getting less than 20 minutes a night.

Past that, I don't care too too much which of Edmundson, Chiarot, Merrill, Gustafsson, etc. get ice time. I'm in favor of Edmundson-Petry for now just cause it's worked and it frees up Romanov and Kulak to play the other pairings. Personally I'd go with

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Weber

Kulak-Merrill

as my first go-to and then work from there.

 

These would be better than the status quo. Not a whole lot of options with what we got.

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On 4/16/2021 at 1:56 PM, BigTed3 said:

These would be my parameters for deciding on D men:

- Petry needs to be on the top pairing.

- Romanov and Kulak should be in the line-up somewhere and both be on the left side.

 - Weber should be in the line-up but getting less than 20 minutes a night.

Past that, I don't care too too much which of Edmundson, Chiarot, Merrill, Gustafsson, etc. get ice time. I'm in favor of Edmundson-Petry for now just cause it's worked and it frees up Romanov and Kulak to play the other pairings. Personally I'd go with

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Weber

Kulak-Merrill

as my first go-to and then work from there.

 

 

1 hour ago, electron58 said:

These would be better than the status quo. Not a whole lot of options with what we got.

Agree. Those are good parameters.  A couple of things:

1) Im worried Petry-Edmundson wont be great as a top pair, but they'll still be better than what we've had.  Petry has shown he will wear down if used too much & I dont know how Edmundson will fare in that role.
 

2)  Weber looked a bit better last game - not just in decisions but in movement and positioning. Maybe he was injured, maybe he was just out of it, I dunno. I hope he's on the right path. He's still going to look better if we can limite his ice time.  Id actually be inclined to try Merrill next to him. I know he's a "defensive defensman" but he's actually an abberation as a "puck moving" defensive defesman.  He wont jump up in the play much but what he WILL do is retrieve pucks & make a good first pass... that might be just what Weber needs.

Edmundson - Petry
Merrill - Weber
Romanov - Kulak/Chairot
 

Im not positive they would even consider bumping Chairot out of the top 4 although tbh, im pretty sure it would be best for everyone, including Chairot - i actually think he'd excel on the 3rd pair. He's not a terrible skater, I still contend he'd be an upgrade on Benn 2.0. 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

Agree. Those are good parameters.  A couple of things:

1) Im worried Petry-Edmundson wont be great as a top pair, but they'll still be better than what we've had.  Petry has shown he will wear down if used too much & I dont know how Edmundson will fare in that role.
 

2)  Weber looked a bit better last game - not just in decisions but in movement and positioning. Maybe he was injured, maybe he was just out of it, I dunno. I hope he's on the right path. He's still going to look better if we can limite his ice time.  Id actually be inclined to try Merrill next to him. I know he's a "defensive defensman" but he's actually an abberation as a "puck moving" defensive defesman.  He wont jump up in the play much but what he WILL do is retrieve pucks & make a good first pass... that might be just what Weber needs.

Edmundson - Petry
Merrill - Weber
Romanov - Kulak/Chairot
 

Im not positive they would even consider bumping Chairot out of the top 4 although tbh, im pretty sure it would be best for everyone, including Chairot - i actually think he'd excel on the 3rd pair. He's not a terrible skater, I still contend he'd be an upgrade on Benn 2.0. 

 

 

I like your pairings but after seeing the lines and pairings from practice, I have a sneaking suspicion they are going to run 

Chiarot-Weber

Edmundson-Petry

Gustafsson-Merrill

Once Gustafsson clears covid protocol. As the only difference between this and today's lineup was Romanov beside Merrill

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Video circulating around twitter today of the cheapshot McDavid gave Danault near the Habs' bench, not for the hit but for Weber's reaction. Weber is the guy right next to Danault and he looks at Danault, looks at McDavid and then just turns away and goes to the D door on the bench. Tatar, conversely, stands there are says something to McDavid and then Anderson comes in and shoves McDavid. Not saying Weber had to do anything penalty-worthy, but he seemed to show very little emotion or concern that his teammate just got cheap-shotted. The discussion on twitter is that Weber is a bad leader and doesn't care about his teammates or is so injured that he knows he can't get involved in anything.

Also some outrage from several members of the media after Eric Engels asked Weber how he would evaluate his own performance recently and Weber responded that it didn't matter and that it was a team sport. Some saying Weber wasn't holding himself accountable, others defending Weber and saying he has never talked about himself in either a good or bad way.

In any case, I think you can see the Montreal audience and media have really turned on Weber this year. Clearly, his on-ice performances have been suboptimal but now we're getting questions about his grit and leadership, which are things that MB has vaunted him for having. Will be interesting to see how this evolves and whether MB steps up to defend him again.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Video circulating around twitter today of the cheapshot McDavid gave Danault near the Habs' bench, not for the hit but for Weber's reaction. Weber is the guy right next to Danault and he looks at Danault, looks at McDavid and then just turns away and goes to the D door on the bench. Tatar, conversely, stands there are says something to McDavid and then Anderson comes in and shoves McDavid. Not saying Weber had to do anything penalty-worthy, but he seemed to show very little emotion or concern that his teammate just got cheap-shotted. The discussion on twitter is that Weber is a bad leader and doesn't care about his teammates or is so injured that he knows he can't get involved in anything.

Also some outrage from several members of the media after Eric Engels asked Weber how he would evaluate his own performance recently and Weber responded that it didn't matter and that it was a team sport. Some saying Weber wasn't holding himself accountable, others defending Weber and saying he has never talked about himself in either a good or bad way.

In any case, I think you can see the Montreal audience and media have really turned on Weber this year. Clearly, his on-ice performances have been suboptimal but now we're getting questions about his grit and leadership, which are things that MB has vaunted him for having. Will be interesting to see how this evolves and whether MB steps up to defend him again.

This, is what I'm talking about. This, Weber, is your team leader? Sure, bergebin.

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The idea of what constitutes leadership in hockey has always seemed misplaced or misguided to me. I think largely, for me, it comes down to who can motivate and uplift their teammates to perform better on the ice. Gallagher does that. Weber doesn't. I don't think any amount of "in-room" speaking is gonna out-do on-ice performance. Not for me. And when you receive messaging from a supposed leader in the room, but that person can't back it up with on-ice performances... Well, I imagine that message eventually falls on deaf ears.

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

The idea of what constitutes leadership in hockey has always seemed misplaced or misguided to me. I think largely, for me, it comes down to who can motivate and uplift their teammates to perform better on the ice. Gallagher does that. Weber doesn't. I don't think any amount of "in-room" speaking is gonna out-do on-ice performance. Not for me. And when you receive messaging from a supposed leader in the room, but that person can't back it up with on-ice performances... Well, I imagine that message eventually falls on deaf ears.

Leadership also requires you to stand up for your team mates.

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30 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Leadership also requires you to stand up for your team mates.

Exactly, the team has to feel like you have their back before they will have your back. It is a team sport and unity is required, when the guy leading the team into battle sees someone take a run at his teammates, then turns and skates away that sends a message louder than any words can. That message is I don't care if you get hurt as long as it doesn't affect me. That is not leadership that is cowardice. 

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6 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Exactly, the team has to feel like you have their back before they will have your back. It is a team sport and unity is required, when the guy leading the team into battle sees someone take a run at his teammates, then turns and skates away that sends a message louder than any words can. That message is I don't care if you get hurt as long as it doesn't affect me. That is not leadership that is cowardice. 

Weber being labeled a coward for not jumping to the defence of Danault is something I can't agree with.  McDavid 6' 1" /193 lbs vs  Danault 6' 1"  / 200 lbs, maybe Danault should just take care of business himself, he could have fought back and earned some respect while taking McDavid to the box with him for 5 minutes (an excellent trade). Danault spent most of the game slashing, hooking and generally getting to McDavid and when he finally provoked a response he backed away, that is his prerogative.

I am glad Chiarot came to JK's defence but I don't think Weber has to stand up for Danault in a shoving match. Weber doesn't chirp, he can delegate that to Tatar and he can leave the harmless shoving to Anderson if Danault can't handle it  Much ado about nothing IMO.

 

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5 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

Weber being labeled a coward for not jumping to the defence of Danault is something I can't agree with.  McDavid 6' 1" /193 lbs vs  Danault 6' 1"  / 200 lbs, maybe Danault should just take care of business himself, he could have fought back and earned some respect while taking McDavid to the box with him for 5 minutes (an excellent trade). Danault spent most of the game slashing, hooking and generally getting to McDavid and when he finally provoked a response he backed away, that is his prerogative.

I am glad Chiarot came to JK's defence but I don't think Weber has to stand up for Danault in a shoving match. Weber doesn't chirp, he can delegate that to Tatar and he can leave the harmless shoving to Anderson if Danault can't handle it  Much ado about nothing IMO.

 

How much slashing, hooking and general getting to other players did McJesus do last night? Oh right, it only matters if it happens to McDavid not if he is doing it to others! Weber is supposed to be the leader, turning away from a player taking liberties on your team mate not 5 feet away is definitely cowardice in my book!. He was the closest team mate and should have been the first to defend otherwise why does he wear the "C"?

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38 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

How much slashing, hooking and general getting to other players did McJesus do last night? Oh right, it only matters if it happens to McDavid not if he is doing it to others! Weber is supposed to be the leader, turning away from a player taking liberties on your team mate not 5 feet away is definitely cowardice in my book!. He was the closest team mate and should have been the first to defend otherwise why does he wear the "C"?

 McDavid did more than enough slashing, hooking, agitating, scoring and setting up goals in 27 minutes to win the game without requiring someone else do his shoving and chirping. That is how much McDavid did and it does matter because he wins hockey games by playing hard. I respect that, even in an opponent.

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