Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

Kovalchuk


HabsRuleForever
 Share

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

He has surprised me too. too bad he got hear to late he would have been great in 2010 or even to start the year....

here's an interesting stat on him ...in his 14 yr or so NHL career he's had one year ( a split season ) where he was a plus ( +10 ) in all the other years he's -152  regular season and -8 for 32 play-off games or -160 total in 932 NHL games ...yikes !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, arpem-can said:

here's an interesting stat on him ...in his 14 yr or so NHL career he's had one year ( a split season ) where he was a plus ( +10 ) in all the other years he's -152  regular season and -8 for 32 play-off games or -160 total in 932 NHL games ...yikes !

I woudln't put much stock in his +/- ... first its not a great stat, because you could literally be stepping on the ice for a line change and get dinged with a minus.   Second, if you dig into all those season ...  Atlanta, always a losing club ... Devils years, losing club.    For example, he was -26 with the Kings ... Drew Doughty was -34 that year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2020-01-11 at 0:09 PM, HabsAlways said:

I woudln't put much stock in his +/- ... first its not a great stat, because you could literally be stepping on the ice for a line change and get dinged with a minus.   Second, if you dig into all those season ...  Atlanta, always a losing club ... Devils years, losing club.    For example, he was -26 with the Kings ... Drew Doughty was -34 that year.

 I think everyone is pretty much aware that the plus/minus stat is not totally reflective but I did say it was an interesting stat . Not all  teams he played on had losing records ...conversely he was a +64 in the KHL in 298 games in which he had 327 pts and loads of PP time and points ..he also had decent point totals in the NHL  but only 1 plus year . All that being said he has surprised me mostly because he isn't struggling to keep up ..his speed for a big man is impressive for his age ..I'd actually consider keeping him around another year if the price was right 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, HabsRuleForever said:

Wow too bad he wasn't available years ago.:ph34r:

 

Would you like to see him stay a Hab or see what we can get for him?

Depends on the return, if all we can get for him is a low second rounder from a contending team, then I'd rather see MB sign him to a reasonable 2-year deal. Looks like he enjoys playing here, if he's willing to sign we can still trade him next year. I get that this is found money for Bergevin but it's refreshing to see a legit scoring winger in the lineup for a change, it's been a while. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

Depends on the return, if all we can get for him is a low second rounder from a contending team, then I'd rather see MB sign him to a reasonable 2-year deal. Looks like he enjoys playing here, if he's willing to sign we can still trade him next year. I get that this is found money for Bergevin but it's refreshing to see a legit scoring winger in the lineup for a change, it's been a while. 

Agreed.  If someone wants to give us a 1st rounder or a blue chip prospect, im down for it.  If they just want to give us a middling pick, id rather keep him to be honest. It will also depend on whether he's likely to resign with us. If he's indicated he'd be interested in a 1 or (max) 2 years at a minimal salary (under $3m) then id like to continue the experiment.

If he was part of a deal (lets say a team wanted Tatar AND Kovy) and the return was that elusive #1LD we've been looking for Id also let him go but consider trying to resign him in the summer. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Agreed.  If someone wants to give us a 1st rounder or a blue chip prospect, im down for it.  If they just want to give us a middling pick, id rather keep him to be honest. It will also depend on whether he's likely to resign with us. If he's indicated he'd be interested in a 1 or (max) 2 years at a minimal salary (under $3m) then id like to continue the experiment.

If he was part of a deal (lets say a team wanted Tatar AND Kovy) and the return was that elusive #1LD we've been looking for Id also let him go but consider trying to resign him in the summer.

Hell yeah, if the return makes sense I'm all for pulling the trigger, be it in isolation or within some sort of package deal. It's just that a low second or even third round pick alone just isn't cutting it for me, I think the upside of having him around would outweigh the potential benefit in that case. Yeah, that pick could turn out to be a good player, yet chances are it won't and it's not like we absolutely need to acquire as many picks as we can. Great problem to have though, let's wait and see what's out there and which direction MB is going to take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Agreed.  If someone wants to give us a 1st rounder or a blue chip prospect, im down for it.  If they just want to give us a middling pick, id rather keep him to be honest. It will also depend on whether he's likely to resign with us. If he's indicated he'd be interested in a 1 or (max) 2 years at a minimal salary (under $3m) then id like to continue the experiment.

If he was part of a deal (lets say a team wanted Tatar AND Kovy) and the return was that elusive #1LD we've been looking for Id also let him go but consider trying to resign him in the summer. 

 

Be prepared to hear people complain about the youngsters not getting enough playing time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Be prepared to hear people complain about the youngsters not getting enough playing time. 

If Kovalchuk plays next year like he has so far this year, there won't be reason for complaint (albeit you're right that no decision will make 100 of people happy). I think the problem people have is when a young skill guy gets stuffed in the press box or on the 4th line while a Moen/Blunden/Flynn/King/Cousins/Weal gets to play higher in the line-up or get PP time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

If Kovalchuk plays next year like he has so far this year, there won't be reason for complaint (albeit you're right that no decision will make 100 of people happy). I think the problem people have is when a young skill guy gets stuffed in the press box or on the 4th line while a Moen/Blunden/Flynn/King/Cousins/Weal gets to play higher in the line-up or get PP time.

I agree, if the young skill guy is a McDavid(or close to it) type player. I'm of the opinion you don't throw your young guys to the wolves on the top lines. Rather you bring them along slowly to learn the NHL game.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I agree, if the young skill guy is a McDavid(or close to it) type player. I'm of the opinion you don't throw your young guys to the wolves on the top lines. Rather you bring them along slowly to learn the NHL game.  

And that's the same system that the Habs coaches have had in place for the last 30 years and fans wonder why we can't develop players properly. Did McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Point, Stamkos, Aho, Svechnikov, Eichle, Twoes, Kane, Rantanan, Mathews, Marner or Barkov get burried on the 3rd or 4th line with players who barely qualify as NHL players as line Mates? No those elite teams that know how to develop put the players in the BEST position for success not failure. If you set a player up for failure you can't be surprised when he fails. The NHL is not a development league however IF you are bringing a guy in right from his draft year you have to use the NHL as a development league. Which means set him up for success not failure. Offensive guys need offensive tallent on their lines not plugs that can't think and play to their speed. Even Kovalchuk played top 6 when he came into the league

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I agree, if the young skill guy is a McDavid(or close to it) type player. I'm of the opinion you don't throw your young guys to the wolves on the top lines. Rather you bring them along slowly to learn the NHL game.  

I don't think you need to be McDavid. You look at younger guys like Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, D'Agostino, Andrighetto, Kotkaniemi, and so on when they were being brought up and they all got put into the bottom 6. They almost all got put with bottom 6 scrubs as linemates, and they didn't get much ice time. It's pretty hard for a guy who's been an offensive star in junior or college or wherever they came from to suddenly have to play better, bigger opponents and not have the support to do it.

I'll agree with you that you protect your younger guys to some degree. But you do that by not putting them in positions to fail. You don't put a Kotkaniemi with Cousins and Weal and then chastise him for not producing or figuring out a way to make that line successful. How many times has JK set up Cousins or Lehkonen or so on for a scoring chance and it didn't even come close to being a goal? Instead, you give Kotkaniemi guys who can produce, like a Drouin or a Tatar or a Kovalchuk or so on and you give them offensive zone starts and you give them PP time and you take advantage when you're at home to give them favorable match-ups. It does NOT mean you are extra harsh with your criticism. It does NOT mean you hold them to a higher standard than your veterans. If you want to teach a rookie about working hard to earn their spot, then the best way you can do that is show them that veterans are being held to that standard too. I still remember Therrien ripping Subban for falling down and causing a turnover that cost us a game, but when Markov did it, there was nary a word from the coach. When Galchenyuk blew an assignment defensively, he got benched or demoted to the 4th line. When Desharnais did it, nothing. When Drouin did it, nothing.

Maybe JK hasn't been great this year, but it's hard to judge him when you're not putting him in a spot that maximizes his skillset. And likewise, guys like Weal and Thompson and Cousins and Danault and Domi have had terrible games this year and don't seem to get the same scrutiny from the coach. In the salary cap world, younger guys play a more important role than ever before. Most forwards are peaking in terms of production when they're 22-24 now. So you don't need 5 years to learn the game, you need to be given experience from a younger age, and particularly in years where we're already out and the games mean nothing, it's a perfect opportunity to see what you have with the kids and let them learn in an environment where a mistake is just a mistake and doesn't cost you a playoff spot. If not now then when?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, campabee82 said:

And that's the same system that the Habs coaches have had in place for the last 30 years and fans wonder why we can't develop players properly. Did McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Point, Stamkos, Aho, Svechnikov, Eichle, Twoes, Kane, Rantanan, Mathews, Marner or Barkov get burried on the 3rd or 4th line with players who barely qualify as NHL players as line Mates? No those elite teams that know how to develop put the players in the BEST position for success not failure. If you set a player up for failure you can't be surprised when he fails. The NHL is not a development league however IF you are bringing a guy in right from his draft year you have to use the NHL as a development league. Which means set him up for success not failure. Offensive guys need offensive tallent on their lines not plugs that can't think and play to their speed. Even Kovalchuk played top 6 when he came into the league

Expectations are too high with young players. I remember when the Habs would send their rookies, no matter who it was , to their farm team to develop them. Those players took that intermediate step and when they were called up they fit right in.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Maybe JK hasn't been great this year, but it's hard to judge him when you're not putting him in a spot that maximizes his skillset. And likewise, guys like Weal and Thompson and Cousins and Danault and Domi have had terrible games this year and don't seem to get the same scrutiny from the coach. In the salary cap world, younger guys play a more important role than ever before. Most forwards are peaking in terms of production when they're 22-24 now. So you don't need 5 years to learn the game, you need to be given experience from a younger age, and particularly in years where we're already out and the games mean nothing, it's a perfect opportunity to see what you have with the kids and let them learn in an environment where a mistake is just a mistake and doesn't cost you a playoff spot. If not now then when?

KK - Yup lets play him with plugs all year, then chew him out for a game Weber/Petry cost us then send him to the minors ... that's what happened this week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what Kovalchuk said according to TSN's John Lu:

"Kovalchuk said he’d like to wait a couple of weeks before asking his agent to open talks about a potential contract extension in Montreal. Kovalchuk said he wants to concentrate on picking up ground on the teams they’re chasing before addressing his personal situation."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/1/2020 at 0:05 AM, BigTed3 said:

I don't think you need to be McDavid. You look at younger guys like Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, D'Agostino, Andrighetto, Kotkaniemi, and so on when they were being brought up and they all got put into the bottom 6. They almost all got put with bottom 6 scrubs as linemates, and they didn't get much ice time. It's pretty hard for a guy who's been an offensive star in junior or college or wherever they came from to suddenly have to play better, bigger opponents and not have the support to do it.

I'll agree with you that you protect your younger guys to some degree. But you do that by not putting them in positions to fail. You don't put a Kotkaniemi with Cousins and Weal and then chastise him for not producing or figuring out a way to make that line successful. How many times has JK set up Cousins or Lehkonen or so on for a scoring chance and it didn't even come close to being a goal? Instead, you give Kotkaniemi guys who can produce, like a Drouin or a Tatar or a Kovalchuk or so on and you give them offensive zone starts and you give them PP time and you take advantage when you're at home to give them favorable match-ups. It does NOT mean you are extra harsh with your criticism. It does NOT mean you hold them to a higher standard than your veterans. If you want to teach a rookie about working hard to earn their spot, then the best way you can do that is show them that veterans are being held to that standard too. I still remember Therrien ripping Subban for falling down and causing a turnover that cost us a game, but when Markov did it, there was nary a word from the coach. When Galchenyuk blew an assignment defensively, he got benched or demoted to the 4th line. When Desharnais did it, nothing. When Drouin did it, nothing.

Maybe JK hasn't been great this year, but it's hard to judge him when you're not putting him in a spot that maximizes his skillset. And likewise, guys like Weal and Thompson and Cousins and Danault and Domi have had terrible games this year and don't seem to get the same scrutiny from the coach. In the salary cap world, younger guys play a more important role than ever before. Most forwards are peaking in terms of production when they're 22-24 now. So you don't need 5 years to learn the game, you need to be given experience from a younger age, and particularly in years where we're already out and the games mean nothing, it's a perfect opportunity to see what you have with the kids and let them learn in an environment where a mistake is just a mistake and doesn't cost you a playoff spot. If not now then when?

Players you mentioned like Galchenyuk who you have to get over! he was a failure. he was the only one responsible for not becoming regular NHL player getting top 6 minutes. Its not Julien or Therrien, its not Bergevin, its  not the Coyotes its not the Penguins it is Galchenyk. Ditto with Dagostino,  DItto with  Adrighetto until Patches found his game teh AHL he got what he deserved as well. Its the same everywhere...

KK first season, third line minutes around 13:44, 1.56 minute per game  PP

Look at Kirdy Dach with chicago, third line minutes around 13:54, 1.24 minutes per game  PP first season

Robert Thomas St Louis, 13.04 minutes per game, 1:06 minute per game PP first season

Its not unusual for kids coming out of Junior making the step to the NHL to get bottom 6 minutes. Less PP, teams usually have a top 6 group already and you have to earn that place. We complained about Suzuki playing on the 4th line early this season, but he played his way up the lineup, same way Patches did after his stint in the AHL .....

KK was better last year then this, he has played his way to the AHL which i think will be really good for him, I still think he is going to be a top 6 forward on this team for a long time...he is still only 19, pretty much a full year younger then Suzuki...

Maybe the answer is to leave them in Junior, or AHL or overseas leagues until they are 20, it didnt hurt Suzuki,  or maybe and most likely its just the player you picked, players that are ready to make the jump and move up the lineup will, players that are not ready won't......  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 10:24 PM, campabee82 said:

. Did McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Point, Stamkos, Aho, Svechnikov, Eichle, Twoes, Kane, Rantanan, Mathews, Marner or Barkov get burried on the 3rd or 4th line with players who barely qualify as NHL players as line Mates?

Marner did for a bit .

The guys you mention are elite players .  IMO the Habs prospects aren't even in the same category

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Marner did for a bit .

The guys you mention are elite players .  IMO the Habs prospects aren't even in the same category

Yeah lets be real here we have not had a sniff of a player of that level for a long long time! in other news i am firmly of the keep Kovy camp! we will never get anything for him that can replace what he brings right now. i also like how he fits with Suzuki and next year a player like Cole will benefit from him being around and to top it off it may sway Romanov to come over. You can bet he will be happy to have had a real shot to do well here when no one else took a chance on him. to me it is a win win for a year or two, he still has speed and the skill is all there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Marner did for a bit .

The guys you mention are elite players .  IMO the Habs prospects aren't even in the same category

I dis agree with your assessment of our prospects. Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki and Poehling may not be on the same level as a McDavid or McKinnon or Crosby or Malkin or Point but they are all either parallel or slightly ahead or behind guys like Eichle, Aho, Svechnikov, Twoes and Barkov were when they were drafted maybe not now but definitely when they were drafted. Difference is the way they were developed most went through the AHL and when called up were put in top roles not saddled on the 3rd or 4th line. Looking back I will agree that KK maybe should have been in the AHL last season and the Habs were just too desperate out of camp for someone to play center and get the fans back in the seats but that's on the coaches and management not the players abilities. KK before the draft was being projected as a Barkov or Twoes type player by scouts and analysts alike. Caufield is being compared to Debrincat or Point with his scoring abilities, Poehling was said to be a bigger stronger version of Danault and Suzuki was always projected to be a 1 or 2 center and looks like he will be but he was given more of a chance from the get go than KK was cause he played top 6 minutes right out of camp and KK was given 3rd line minutes and wingers right our of camp both eventually dropped the the 4th line for a bit but when Suzuki played his way off the 4th line he was promoted straight back to the top 6 and KK was still only promoted to the 3rd line say what you want but the coaching for the Habs is inconsistent at best when it comes to young guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know, I think Kovy still needs to be traded. I enjoy having him on the team, and think we could probably use him next year too, but I see no reason why we couldn’t trade him at the deadline and resign him in the offseason. That way he still gets a shot at the cup this year, and we get a little something in the meantime. I doubt whoever trades for him will have any interest in signing him. Win win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if the plan is to bring in Romanov once his KHL deal expires, it only stands to reason that you would want a guy like Kovalchuk.  A veteran presence for the young Russian to mentor under signed to a modest extension is a huge asset.  It also helps young sniper Cole Caufield.  I would be interested to see if Caufield ends this season in Laval, if not MTL to add scoring punch.  I would be interested to know how contract talks are going for both Romanov and Caufield.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

I don’t know, I think Kovy still needs to be traded. I enjoy having him on the team, and think we could probably use him next year too, but I see no reason why we couldn’t trade him at the deadline and resign him in the offseason. That way he still gets a shot at the cup this year, and we get a little something in the meantime. I doubt whoever trades for him will have any interest in signing him. Win win.

that rarely happens unless the player has a real history with the team (ie pleks) so i think if you trade him at the deadline, thats most likely it.  

Its all about the return at this point. If someone wants to pay good value for Kovy I bid adieu but if the pickins are slim, honestly id rather we keep him.  I feel like he and Suzuki are developing something special and if playing with him for even just another 20 games means that Suzuki adds another element to his game going forward, its well worth it.

Ive said before, a lot of Kovy's 'specialness' comes from his audacity - which is true of a lot of elite players - he does things that others wouldnt even consider doing (because they arent exactly 'safe') because he KNOWs he can make it work.  Ovechkin does this. Stamkos does this.  If some of that rubs off on Suzuki going forward?  Well worth keeping him for - and thats on top of the points he's going to put up for us. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • H_T_L locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...