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17 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

 We can have our own opinions about whether the Subban/Weber trade has merits one way or the other . You can argue that he was a puck possession monster if you so choose and I'm not saying he wasn't effective in that manner but in my opinion he had become a defensive liability because he was coughing the puck up trying to do it all himself and trying moves like spinoramas in the D-zone  .This was becoming a regular occurrence that was leading to goals against . That's what I remember when I watched games . If I have an opinion about whether acquiring Weber was a good move or not there are plenty of fans that would agree and I'm sure plenty that wouldn't . That isn't to say that those who have a different opinion about this than you are " drinking deep of the Bergevin /Therrien cool aid " ...it's just an opinion of the value of a trade pros and cons which is the basis of discussion is it not ? 

I personally hated the trade both then and now. While I understand why you feel Subban was a defensive liability with him trying to do everything himself I don't agree with the statement. PK had 43+ assists in the three years leading up to the trade that's not selfish that's puck distribution. The biggest thing for me that indicates we lost this trade though is the stats that really define a players career, playoff stats Weber has 31 points 14 Goals 17 Assists in 65 games over 15 years. PK has 62 points 18 Goals 44 Assists in 96 games over 11 years. So in 3 less years PK has doubled Webers production and appeared in more playoff games than Weber has ever played in and Weber is a -8 in the playoffs over his career PK is a +1. Most importantly though is the PP production in the playoffs PK has 11 PPG and 17 PPA for 28 PPP. Weber on the other hand has just 6 PPG and 5 PPA for 11 PPP! All this to say that PK is clearly the more valuable playoff performer and thus the better player as the playoff performances are what really matter in hockey when the ultimate goal is to win a cup.

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22 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

Weber won two Olympic Gold medals by playing top minutes in all situations while PK Subban was given an Olympic Gold medal for attendance.

Wow Weber played in the Olympics! That makes his value in the NHL way higher! 

Weber Olympic Champ

Subban Proven Stanley Cup playoff performer

Weber shows up every 4 years and competes for basically nothing meaningful to the NHL GM's

PK continuously performs year after year when his team makes the playoffs for the Stanley Cup

Weber has played in playoffs in 9 out of 15 years

Subban has played in playoffs 8 out of 11 years

Weber Mark Messier leadership Award

PK Norris winner

Weber 34

Subban 30

Weber signed until 2026 for a cap hit of 7.8 Mil

Subban signed until 2022 for a cap hit of 9 mil

Given the NHL significant production I would take PK everyday and twice on Sunday

 

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PK Subban awarded Norris trophy by  a media vote during lock-out season after a gig on SN. Ryan Suter the best NHL defenseman that year deemed a poor interview choice.

PK Subban - a brand

S. Weber - a hockey player 

Subban makes play-offs as 3rd ranked defenseman on team, yes that is very important.

I will give you your claim that PK SUbban is a great hockey player but as a Montreal Canadien fan I am glad that he is a great player in NJ

I agree to disagree with your dismissal of Weber., the Olympic gold may not mean much to NHL GMs but it means something to me as a Canadian hockey fan.

I'm done out to support my local JR team.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

PK Subban awarded Norris trophy by  a media vote during lock-out season after a gig on SN. Ryan Suter the best NHL defenseman that year deemed a poor interview choice.

PK Subban - a brand

S. Weber - a hockey player 

Subban makes play-offs as 3rd ranked defenseman on team, yes that is very important.

I will give you your claim that PK SUbban is a great hockey player but as a Montreal Canadien fan I am glad that he is a great player in NJ

I agree to disagree with your dismissal of Weber., the Olympic gold may not mean much to NHL GMs but it means something to me as a Canadian hockey fan.

I'm done out to support my local JR team.

 

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you that Weber is an elite defenseman. He is and without him our D would look much lime the Wings D. I was disagreeing with your assessment of PK being a defensive liability and his value vs Weber's. Also pretty sure PK was a 1st pairing guy for his entire time with the Habs and second pairing with the Preds and Devils. I am also proud that ALL of the Canadian team won the gold whether they played or were there as extras in case of injuries. I hope the NHL allows players back at the Olympics again soon as we can continue to show the world that Canadians are the best. 

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On 3/7/2020 at 6:30 PM, ramcharger440 said:

Me either. good player not sure why he fell of a cliff with his game but i think his head is elsewhere.

Agree. People have been talking about Subban falling off a cliff this year but the regression started last year (30 or so points in 65 or so games) and has obviously regressed even further this year.  I still contend this is all about luck - there's no way management could foresee this or know that Weber would age better - but it has happened that way to this point anyway. 

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20 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Agree. People have been talking about Subban falling off a cliff this year but the regression started last year (30 or so points in 65 or so games) and has obviously regressed even further this year.  I still contend this is all about luck - there's no way management could foresee this or know that Weber would age better - but it has happened that way to this point anyway. 

I am not convinced the Subban has fallen off a cliff. I submit that he hasnt played the same since leaving Montreal however, Tatar and Domi have both played better in Montreal than anywhere else they have played. It could just be that Subban like Tatar and Domi play better in the spotlight of Montreal than out in smaller markets. 

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38 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I am not convinced the Subban has fallen off a cliff. I submit that he hasnt played the same since leaving Montreal however, Tatar and Domi have both played better in Montreal than anywhere else they have played. It could just be that Subban like Tatar and Domi play better in the spotlight of Montreal than out in smaller markets. 

Another reason I am not sure he has fallen off a cliff so much as this year is an outlier is cause he has only had more than 40 points 5 times over his 10 year career. last year he had 31 points in 63 games for a 0.49 PPG average which is on slightly below with his career average of 0.60 PPG but would have allowed him to hit 40 points again if he wasn't injured. This year he is on pace for a prorated 20 points which is by far the worst of his career playing in the smallest market of his career as well.

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I think the fact of the matter with Bergevin is he still has an elephant in the room in the form of player development.  Why are so many of our 1st rounders not NHL ready or living up to initial projections.  Why do they look so damn promising until they get to MTL?  The frustrating part of Marc Bergevin is twice now he's used our top 3 pick to draft the centre of the future we still do not appear to have.  Once again in the text book definition of mental illness, Marc Bergvin has thrown his top 3 centre of the future under the bus, hoping for a different result.  it's time perhaps to clean house and get a fresh set of eyes on this team.

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35 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

I think the fact of the matter with Bergevin is he still has an elephant in the room in the form of player development.  Why are so many of our 1st rounders not NHL ready or living up to initial projections.  Why do they look so damn promising until they get to MTL?  The frustrating part of Marc Bergevin is twice now he's used our top 3 pick to draft the centre of the future we still do not appear to have.  Once again in the text book definition of mental illness, Marc Bergvin has thrown his top 3 centre of the future under the bus, hoping for a different result.  it's time perhaps to clean house and get a fresh set of eyes on this team.

To be fair, the entire first round of the 2012 draft was... hmm... a bit of a downer. Yeah, there were some good players picked, but there were a lot of busts too. Galchenyuk has actually done fairly well compared to some of his draft class. There were some decent defenders to be had, but... alas... we went with a centerman.

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48 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

I think the fact of the matter with Bergevin is he still has an elephant in the room in the form of player development.  Why are so many of our 1st rounders not NHL ready or living up to initial projections.  Why do they look so damn promising until they get to MTL?  The frustrating part of Marc Bergevin is twice now he's used our top 3 pick to draft the centre of the future we still do not appear to have.  Once again in the text book definition of mental illness, Marc Bergvin has thrown his top 3 centre of the future under the bus, hoping for a different result.  it's time perhaps to clean house and get a fresh set of eyes on this team.

We're calling it quits on JK already?  JK who is still 1 year younger than Suzuki... that seems premature to me.   Im not certain if JK will be a 1st line centre or not ( and I know you said we dont "appear" to have him) but i think its too early to say for sure.  I still have a feeling about the kid.

With regards to the development issue - i feel like we turned a corner with Bouchard.  Seeing us leave guys in Laval when in the past we would have rushed to call them up has been a welcome change. 

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13 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

To be fair, the entire first round of the 2012 draft was... hmm... a bit of a downer. Yeah, there were some good players picked, but there were a lot of busts too. Galchenyuk has actually done fairly well compared to some of his draft class. There were some decent defenders to be had, but... alas... we went with a centerman.

Yup. Forsberg was a guy who was intriguing - and i think Timmins said he was the 2nd choice - but to draft him at 3rd would have been a big stretch. 

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44 minutes ago, maas_art said:

We're calling it quits on JK already?  JK who is still 1 year younger than Suzuki... that seems premature to me.   Im not certain if JK will be a 1st line centre or not ( and I know you said we dont "appear" to have him) but i think its too early to say for sure.  I still have a feeling about the kid.

With regards to the development issue - i feel like we turned a corner with Bouchard.  Seeing us leave guys in Laval when in the past we would have rushed to call them up has been a welcome change. 

I agree, give KK at least the rest of the year and perhaps even next season under Bouchard in Laval before we even consider writing him off. I mean Barkov didn't hit his stride until his 3rd or 4th year in the league and he is a guy most pundits compare KK to. 

Also Agree Bouchard is a great mentor to the kids, he openly stated twice now (once when Brook was played at wing and once when KK was sent down) that he is here to help develop the guys into NHL regulars so he isn't concerned about wins, losses or making the playoffs. He is going to play the kids in all types of situations and keep playing them even if they fall flat on their face until they can recognize the situations in game and adapt correctly. That has the makings of a great development program.

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11 hours ago, claremont said:

Subban has joined the Vonn Trap family! He will “get up” but I think may play around “Brazilians” for a while before resurrecting his hockey career 

Tiger Woods did, too.

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7 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I agree, give KK at least the rest of the year and perhaps even next season under Bouchard in Laval before we even consider writing him off. I mean Barkov didn't hit his stride until his 3rd or 4th year in the league and he is a guy most pundits compare KK to. 

Also Agree Bouchard is a great mentor to the kids, he openly stated twice now (once when Brook was played at wing and once when KK was sent down) that he is here to help develop the guys into NHL regulars so he isn't concerned about wins, losses or making the playoffs. He is going to play the kids in all types of situations and keep playing them even if they fall flat on their face until they can recognize the situations in game and adapt correctly. That has the makings of a great development program.

Could Bouchard be a future Canadiens head coach? Also, is he related to Emile "Butch" Bouchard and Pierre Bouchard?

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10 hours ago, maas_art said:

We're calling it quits on JK already?  JK who is still 1 year younger than Suzuki... that seems premature to me.   Im not certain if JK will be a 1st line centre or not ( and I know you said we dont "appear" to have him) but i think its too early to say for sure.  I still have a feeling about the kid.

With regards to the development issue - i feel like we turned a corner with Bouchard.  Seeing us leave guys in Laval when in the past we would have rushed to call them up has been a welcome change. 

I'm not saying I've given up on Jesperi Kotkaniemi as a prospect or a hockey player.  I'm saying I am highly skeptical of MB and staff abilities to properly develop young talent.  I very much hope he becomes the No. 1 centre we desperately need.

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2 hours ago, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

Could Bouchard be a future Canadiens head coach? Also, is he related to Emile "Butch" Bouchard and Pierre Bouchard?

I think its definitely one of the plans. I think Ducharme may have the shorter track (assuming he isnt a sacrificial fire this summer) but Bouchard may well be the guy in the future. 

I am pretty sure he isnt related to Pierre & Emile. 

 

51 minutes ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

I'm not saying I've given up on Jesperi Kotkaniemi as a prospect or a hockey player.  I'm saying I am highly skeptical of MB and staff abilities to properly develop young talent.  I very much hope he becomes the No. 1 centre we desperately need.

And thats fair (and i apologize if it sounded like i thought you were). I keep reading analysts and fans saying he's a borderline bust but they seem to forget how young he is.

Up until Bouchard's hire i was right there with you - our development team was brutal, but I feel like we're on the right track now.  I think there's still cause for concern with the NHL development team but assuming the AHL guys do what they seem to be, hopefully when guys like JK, Poehling, Brook etc get their call ups, we will see them step right into the roles they were made for. 

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