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79 Andrei Markov 06-07


jl-1

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Guest Lafleurs Guy
I know you're talking about Rafalski. My point is that if lemmings will pay Rafalski more than he's worth, then lemmings will also pay Markov more than he's worth, so wishing we could have gotten him for less is, practically speaking, a waste of time.

Not really. We can give our opinions on whether or not Gainey could've done better.

And if you play hardball, like you said earlier, and refuse to budge on salary and let Markov walk, whom do you get to fill his shoes? You can't seriously tell me that you expect Ryan O'Byrne or any of our defensive prospects to walk in and perform Markov's job at the same level, can you?

First of all, I never said we had to play hardball, that must've been somebody else. I argued that the guy wanted to stay here and I expected better from Gainey.

Secondly no, I don't think O'Byrne could replace Markov, but that's not what I was talking about.

Third, Rafalski (what I was talking about) would be a waste of cash at 6 million and we should let the lemmings have him.

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Guest Lafleurs Guy
My apologies. I thought you were aligning with JL on whether or not to play hardball with Markov.

No, I don't think that would be a good idea.

In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what I'd do if Markov's agent decided to draw a line in the sand with us at 5.75. I'm not sure what I'd do. Is he worth that? Geez...

Like I said, I think we could've done better but if its "5.75 or I walk", I just don't know if he's worth that much. I'm really on the fence from that perspective. Personally I think 5.5 is a premium and I'm not sure about 5.75.

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No, I don't think that would be a good idea.

In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what I'd do if Markov's agent decided to draw a line in the sand with us at 5.75. I'm not sure what I'd do. Is he worth that? Geez...

Unfortunatley, I really do think that was the situation. Without playing hardball, I'm not sure Gainey had any real options. Markov hired Meehan - to me that alone says he wasn't going to give us a huge discount. Add in that he knew what he could get as a free agent, I just think we were really stuck here. He wanted to stay here, but there's a difference between wanting to stay somewhere and taking a big pay cut to do so. We could have played hardball and clung onto the hope that Markov really did want to stay here and was willing to take a pay cut to do so. Even on top of ethically this is a bit screwed up (no one would ever publicly say they wanted to stay here again), it is also risky.

Markov said he wanted to stay here, in my mind we shouldn't hold that against him in negotiations. If he walked in wanting to take a bit of a paycut for the sake of the team, then great. But I don't think we should try and juice every penny out of him because we know he wants to be here.

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Guest Lafleurs Guy
Unfortunatley, I really do think that was the situation. Without playing hardball, I'm not sure Gainey had any real options. Markov hired Meehan - to me that alone says he wasn't going to give us a huge discount. Add in that he knew what he could get as a free agent, I just think we were really stuck here.

Actually, Meehan scared the hell out of me. He is the worst (or best) agent out there. And I think he's the same agent that some of our other guys have. He has no problems in totally messing over a team for the sake of negotiations. And I'm pretty sure he was Perez's agent.

He wanted to stay here, but there's a difference between wanting to stay somewhere and taking a big pay cut to do so. We could have played hardball and clung onto the hope that Markov really did want to stay here and was willing to take a pay cut to do so. Even on top of ethically this is a bit screwed up (no one would ever publicly say they wanted to stay here again), it is also risky.

I still expected more from Gainey.

But okay, let's assume hardball was played by Meehan... do I sign Markov for that amount? Man, that's a really tough call. I probably do, but I might look out for places where I can trade him to. I wouldn't be dead set on dealing him, but I'd really think about it.

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No, I don't think that would be a good idea.

In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what I'd do if Markov's agent decided to draw a line in the sand with us at 5.75. I'm not sure what I'd do. Is he worth that? Geez...

Like I said, I think we could've done better but if its "5.75 or I walk", I just don't know if he's worth that much. I'm really on the fence from that perspective. Personally I think 5.5 is a premium and I'm not sure about 5.75.

In purely objective terms, I don't think Markov is worth $5.75 million. But then, I feel that most NHL players aren't worth their contracts, no matter how talented or productive they are. However, at the end of the day, it is worth it for us to pay $5.75 million to keep Markov in Montreal. He may not be worth the dollars, but it will hurt us far more to let him walk than to shell out the extra cash. This is a lean year for quality UFA defencemen. There aren't that many available. If we'd let him walk, the situation would have been very uncertain. There would have been no guarantee that:

  1. We could sign someone of Markov's calibre to replace him.
  2. A player of Markov's calibre wouldn't be receiving better offers from other teams.
  3. A new player would fit into our system and be immediately productive.

Instead of facing that uncertainty, Gainey locked up our top d-man early so he could concentrate on building on the core players. I think he made the tough, but right decision.

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Guest Lafleurs Guy
In purely objective terms, I don't think Markov is worth $5.75 million. But then, I feel that most NHL players aren't worth their contracts, no matter how talented or productive they are. However, at the end of the day, it is worth it for us to pay $5.75 million to keep Markov in Montreal. He may not be worth the dollars, but it will hurt us far more to let him walk than to shell out the extra cash. This is a lean year for quality UFA defencemen. There aren't that many available. If we'd let him walk, the situation would have been very uncertain. There would have been no guarantee that:
  1. We could sign someone of Markov's calibre to replace him.
  2. A player of Markov's calibre wouldn't be receiving better offers from other teams.
  3. A new player would fit into our system and be immediately productive.
Instead of facing that uncertainty, Gainey locked up our top d-man early so he could concentrate on building on the core players. I think he made the tough, but right decision.

The thing that makes this one so tough is that I don't think Markov is grossly overpaid at the amount. But I still think he's overpaid. That's why its such a difficult choice.

At the end of the day though, we could still deal him by signing him so I guess there's kind of an "out clause" there. His deal didn't include a no trade did it?

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Actually, Meehan scared the hell out of me. He is the worst (or best) agent out there. And I think he's the same agent that some of our other guys have. He has no problems in totally messing over a team for the sake of negotiations. And I'm pretty sure he was Perez's agent.

That's right, he was also Theo's agent after his Hart season.

The second I saw he was Markov's agent, I knew any chance we had of getting Markov for 5 million or less was out the window

In purely objective terms, I don't think Markov is worth $5.75 million. But then, I feel that most NHL players aren't worth their contracts, no matter how talented or productive they are. However, at the end of the day, it is worth it for us to pay $5.75 million to keep Markov in Montreal. He may not be worth the dollars, but it will hurt us far more to let him walk than to shell out the extra cash.

That's well said. In objective terms, it's questionable whether Koivu is worth their contract. But if we lost Markov, since we don't have anyone to replace him, replacing him (something I think for the sake of the team we'd have to do), we would have to pay market value, not objective value, for that replacement.

So if we lose Markov, then we basically are forced to start looking at Timonen or Rafalski at over 6 million. The little bit extra Markov may have recieved isn't what is going to hurt this team, it's the low end players making good money that is.

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But wasn't yor point with Markov that you found it too high when it was signed?

Because those other guys you listed were all (other than maybe Sammy) matters of guys getting deals that were fine at the time, but then they went downhill in one sense or another. I just can't see this happening with Markov, he is very steady.

I either didn't express my position clearly or you missed my point all together. I'm saying that Theodore, Kovalev and Samsonov's contracts all seemed to be fine and justified "in some people's eyes" including Bob Gainey, just like Markov's contract seems fine to some here and to Gainey. The first three came back to bite us hard, I wished we would have learned from them instead of overpaying (in my opinion) again. ;)

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I either didn't express my position clearly or you missed my point all together. I'm saying that Theodore, Kovalev and Samsonov's contracts all seemed to be fine and justified "in some people's eyes" including Bob Gainey, just like Markov's contract seems fine to some here and to Gainey. The first three came back to bite us hard, I wished we would have learned from them instead of overpaying (in my opinion) again. ;)

Well ya but this isn't the same situation. Those guys contracts only turned out to hurt us because they went downhill (in one sense or another, for one reason or another). Had they all lived up to expectiations, they wouldn't be coming back to bite us.

With Markov, unless you're fear for the contract is that he is going to go downhill, I just don't think it's the same situation.

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JL we didn't have a choice, we either overpaid or we let him go, there is no perfect scenario where he signs here for 3 million, after all his Agent is DON MEEHAN, lol, as the saying goes, nuff said.

Because of our recent history of overpaying players who we thought then that they were crutial to our team, I would have made a final offer of $4.75 million to Markov, take it or leave it. I would have made a parallel offer to Souray for about $5-5½ million with the same implication.

Now, some will say that it's playing hardball, but it's all in the delivery, in the way it's presented. You put the emphasis on the positive and explain that your goal as a team is to re-sign both of them so each leaves some room for the other. If they can't accept that, do you really want them on your team as it would only be another case where they're staying for the money... and we know where that has led us.

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Guest bigsby
Because of our recent history of overpaying players who we thought then that they were crutial to our team, I would have made a final offer of $4.75 million to Markov, take it or leave it. I would have made a parallel offer to Souray for about $5-5½ million with the same implication.

Now, some will say that it's playing hardball, but it's all in the delivery, in the way it's presented. You put the emphasis on the positive and explain that your goal as a team is to re-sign both of them so each leaves some room for the other. If they can't accept that, do you really want them on your team as it would only be another case where they're staying for the money... and we know where that has led us.

if we had to overpay any player...

and who was as crucial to our team as markov? i think markov's proved his value over most of our overpayed players of the past, including theo - but that's just mho.

i still don't understand the hardball argument. i think that it was probably a deal that satisfied both sides. if either team was playing hardball they'd probably still be in negotiations right now. i don't think meehan robbed the habs/gainey and i think we'll see when the other free agent defenseman get signed how overpaid markov is, if at all.

4.75 is low for markov given the fa market for dmen this year but i also understand that those who value souray's role on the team would argue that markov should have been signed for less. i disagree. i think gainey made the right choice. souray would/will be a loss but i don't think signing markov for less would have changed the souray outcome.

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Guest Lafleurs Guy
if we had to overpay any player...

and who was as crucial to our team as markov? i think markov's proved his value over most of our overpayed players of the past, including theo - but that's just mho.

i still don't understand the hardball argument. i think that it was probably a deal that satisfied both sides. if either team was playing hardball they'd probably still be in negotiations right now. i don't think meehan robbed the habs/gainey and i think we'll see when the other free agent defenseman get signed how overpaid markov is, if at all.

4.75 is low for markov given the fa market for dmen this year but i also understand that those who value souray's role on the team would argue that markov should have been signed for less. i disagree. i think gainey made the right choice. souray would/will be a loss but i don't think signing markov for less would have changed the souray outcome.

I won't get into the whole overpaying thing as I've done that to death. But I've said for sometime now that Markov is our best and most valuable player.

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JL, at the end of the day, we disagree because our priorities are different. Obviously, you feel Souray is more valuable to the team than Markov, because you offered him more money in your hypothetical scenario. Now that I understand your point of view, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on who's more important to the team. ;)

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Guest jzun00

It's simple, the magic number for Markov was 5.75 per year for four years. Take it or leave it, those were the options. Bob took it and in doing so he was able to keep our best defencemen, someone we count on explicitly seeing as Markov is not just an average defenceman that can be replaced through free agency or the farm system very easliy and if we were lucky enough to pick-up a defenceman of his caliber through free agency we would be paying the dough out anyways.

So here, again, we get to keep our best defenceman and someone, unbeleivably, who wants to play for this team and coach and with that said, by the time his contract expires the running norm for defencemen of his caliber will make Markov look like he is being underpaid.

When you factor in the length of his contract, his age, the cost of replacing an asset like him, and the rate of contract inflations I really beleive that Bob and the Canadiens got a hell of a deal here.

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Guest hatethoseleafs

Maybe it would help if we looked at this in a different light. Let's assume that Markov had chosen to test the market.That now puts us in a position of looking for a D-man.Lets presume that Markov had never played for our team, which puts in question how he would fit into our system. BG decides that this Markov guy is exactly what we need, along with several other teams.

Let the bidding begin.

Who among us honestly beleive that an offer of 5 mill or less would not have been matched or bettered by any other team out there??? So Markov weighs his options noting that playing in Montreal would be very appealing to him but,,,,,is it in his best interest to accept a lower offer in a situation of higher taxes??? HMMMMM,,,,,,PASSSSSSSS. We don't better the offer and he walks.

So we move on to the next guy. Seeing as we can only afford one of those big deals lets go down the list. Geez,,,that Souray guy looks interesting. Let's make him a similar offer and see if he bites.The result,,,,,,PASSSSS. Who's next???

See the pattern developing here guys??? If you want your team to persue free agents then you have to be willing to pay those ( what we refer to as)outrageous contracts. We had the money to go after one of our needs on D and we chose Markov. Some will claim that it should have been Souray but even Sheldon himself would (and did) disagree with you.

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JL, at the end of the day, we disagree because our priorities are different. Obviously, you feel Souray is more valuable to the team than Markov, because you offered him more money in your hypothetical scenario. Now that I understand your point of view, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on who's more important to the team. ;)

For the record, I do NOT feel that Souray is more valuable than Markov on this team. They're different players filling different roles on our team and in their own ways, they're both as valuable to this team. However, on the open market, Souray is worth a lot more because of how hard it is to find defensemen like him as every team has at least one Andrei Markov but few have a Sheldon Souray, and due to the numbers that Souray managed to put together for a defenseman. In hope that in trying to clarify things I didn't make it worst! ;):lol:

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Guest P.Royfan
For the record, I do NOT feel that Souray is more valuable than Markov on this team. They're different players filling different roles on our team and in their own ways, they're both as valuable to this team. However, on the open market, Souray is worth a lot more because of how hard it is to find defensemen like him as every team has at least one Andrei Markov but few have a Sheldon Souray, and due to the numbers that Souray managed to put together for a defenseman. In hope that in trying to clarify things I didn't make it worst! ;):lol:

Hey JL take abreak from all this contract stuff for a moment! ;). What are your thoughts on Markov being a potential mentor to Valentenko now that he's signed and Emelin (If we can get him over here). I really like the fact that Markov is here to help these two young guys along. Of coarse those guys are probablya few seasons away.

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For the record, I do NOT feel that Souray is more valuable than Markov on this team. They're different players filling different roles on our team and in their own ways, they're both as valuable to this team. However, on the open market, Souray is worth a lot more because of how hard it is to find defensemen like him as every team has at least one Andrei Markov but few have a Sheldon Souray, and due to the numbers that Souray managed to put together for a defenseman. In hope that in trying to clarify things I didn't make it worst! ;):lol:

Haha kind of.

I do get what you're saying about Souray being worth more on the open market. I don't think the difference is as big as you do, but he'd probably get half a million or so more (really depends what the nutjob GMs want out a defensman right now and somewhat supply though)

But the thing is, you've been one of the biggest oponents of not overpaying players just thanks to their market value. But isn't giving a player more than another just because of market value what helps cause overpaying? If Markov was more valuable to us, in my mind we should offer him more money. I mean of course the market is going to have an impact on contracts as one level or another, but as the more valuable player, I don't see a problem with offering Markov the bigger contract.

There are three guys I'm going to be watching this offseason: Timonen, Rafalski, and Souray. It will be interesting for sure to see what kinds of offers these guys get.

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Haha kind of.

I do get what you're saying about Souray being worth more on the open market. I don't think the difference is as big as you do, but he'd probably get half a million or so more (really depends what the nutjob GMs want out a defensman right now and somewhat supply though)

But the thing is, you've been one of the biggest oponents of not overpaying players just thanks to their market value. But isn't giving a player more than another just because of market value what helps cause overpaying? If Markov was more valuable to us, in my mind we should offer him more money. I mean of course the market is going to have an impact on contracts as one level or another, but as the more valuable player, I don't see a problem with offering Markov the bigger contract.

There are three guys I'm going to be watching this offseason: Timonen, Rafalski, and Souray. It will be interesting for sure to see what kinds of offers these guys get.

It has to go both ways. We can't pay Markov $5.75 million and expect Souray to sign for less than that due to the market value. Even in your conservative assessment, you are saying that Souray would fetch ½ million more than Markov so offering him $1.25 million less than Markov is a pure slap in the face. In the eyes of GMs around the league, Souray is a rarity, in the class of Jovanovski, Chara, McCabe, PP QBs with a great shot who can put up major numbers from the blue line, players who other teams need to make game plans around them. Can't say that they do that with Markov.

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Guest 1970 Habs
It has to go both ways. We can't pay Markov $5.75 million and expect Souray to sign for less than that due to the market value. Even in your conservative assessment, you are saying that Souray would fetch ½ million more than Markov so offering him $1.25 million less than Markov is a pure slap in the face. In the eyes of GMs around the league, Souray is a rarity, in the class of Jovanovski, Chara, McCabe, PP QBs with a great shot who can put up major numbers from the blue line, players who other teams need to make game plans around them. Can't say that they do that with Markov.

I do not know if I agree with all of what you said. Markov in my mind is an elite defenceman getting 46 and 49 pts respectively in the past two years. Put a big defensive defenceman like Komisarek on with him and Markov should put up better numbers. I agree he does not have a hard shot however the team can adjust their power play. I guess we will see next year if Souray does not sign with the club.

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I do not know if I agree with all of what you said. Markov in my mind is an elite defenceman getting 46 and 49 pts respectively in the past two years. Put a big defensive defenceman like Komisarek on with him and Markov should put up better numbers. I agree he does not have a hard shot however the team can adjust their power play. I guess we will see next year if Souray does not sign with the club.

But Komisarek played with Markov most of the season and he didn't put up points like Souray... I disagree that Markov is an elite player, at least not yet. He's a good defenseman with a well rounded game overall, both offensively and defensively who has the potential to be dominant at both ends of the ice. He's just entering his prime but he hasn't proven anything to that effect quite yet and I wouldn't have paid him for potential as opposed to what he's done.

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Guest 1970 Habs
But Komisarek played with Markov most of the season and he didn't put up points like Souray... I disagree that Markov is an elite player, at least not yet. He's a good defenseman with a well rounded game overall, both offensively and defensively who has the potential to be dominant at both ends of the ice. He's just entering his prime but he hasn't proven anything to that effect quite yet and I wouldn't have paid him for potential as opposed to what he's done.

I think a defenceman with 45+ points in the past two seasons with a plus rating on a team allowing more goals against than goals scored is in the elite category. However we can agree to disagree. As for playing with Komisarek it was not even a full season (and the overall Team Chemistry was terrible) so it is not enough to tell in my mind. Let's what a new season brings. That is if they are paired together.

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