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79 Andrei Markov 06-07


jl-1

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Guest bigsby
Right. I agree, but whether the bar was already raised or not really isn't the issue. Because the way spending works is that the current philosophy is spend to the cap. When spending on UFAs you spend what a player is worth to you (aka what percentage of the cap). Had it not raised with Markov, it would have raised with Timonen

To put it another way, Souray is going to get over 6 million, but it's not because of Mccabe or Jovo or anyone. We use those contracts because it helps us judge what a player is worth. But once they hit the market, GMs pay what they think that player is worth to them, not what similar players are making. If Mccabe, Jovo, etc. were making 2 million a piece, Souray would still be getting over 6 million because when you are a UFA it isn't what you are worth arbitrarily, it is what you are worth to one team.

i think you put it perfectly when you say teams 'spend to the cap.' i would also add it's not just what they think a player is worth to their team, they also end up in a bidding war with other teams which is how we end up with a contract like samsonov's. which at the time made sense imho (given that gainey had to sign someone to keep the fans happy, which apparantly we never are...)

pat hickey mentioned the same thing today in the gazette, that with timonen's contract we can say goodbye to souray. i still don't get how he's worth more than these guys but i guess a goal-scoring dman (i'm over-simplifying i know) will be high in demand. if that's true than i would rather spend the money on hamrlik, priessing, hannan or markov than 6mil on a player who's -28. (that's not to say i don't like souray, i really do, and i think he's a good dman but one good season...come on, over six is just silly. we made markov a priority for a reason.)

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I really don't think that was the case.

For one thing, Markov's deal wasn't all that groundbreaking. Taking UFA salaries from past seasons, cap inflation, and other factors into account, it was more or less where I expected it to be.

Furthermore, I really can't see Philli saying "okay we'll set aside 4 million and try to nab Timonen, then see Markov's deal, and go "actually now we're willing to spend 6 million on the same player".

There is no way to prove or disprove this, but I honestly don't think Markov's deal had a thing to do with this. Unrestricted free agents always get deals higher than what we expected, this was simply a case of that. Now even if you think Markov's deal did significantly raise the value of dmen like him, do you honestly not think it would have happened with someone else? Had we not offered Markov 5.75 million, someone would have offered him or Timonen that same amount. It's free agent season, the same thing would have happened as every other season. Markov's deal will affect restricted free agents more than anything.

There is no doubt that Markov's deal had an influence on Timonen's negotiations. Similar player, same position, similar production, similar stage in their career, both about to become UFA's... An agent would be foolish not to use another player like that in his negotiations as it's done all the time. We raized the bar for that type of players as comparing to Chara, Jovanovski, McCabe and company isn't fair as they're not in the same category as Markov and Timonen. Those two compare more to Kaberle in Toronto and Salo in Vancouver.

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There is no doubt that Markov's deal had an influence on Timonen's negotiations. Similar player, same position, similar production, similar stage in their career, both about to become UFA's... An agent would be foolish not to use another player like that in his negotiations as it's done all the time. We raized the bar for that type of players as comparing to Chara, Jovanovski, McCabe and company isn't fair as they're not in the same category as Markov and Timonen. Those two compare more to Kaberle in Toronto and Salo in Vancouver.

I'm not saying it wasn't mentioned, I just don't think it made any real difference. You can consider Markov's contract to have "raised the bar" if you like, but would it not have raised anyways come July 1?

I think where Markov's deal affects things is that now that type of defensman is "worth" in our minds. But in terms of free agent negotiations, Timonen would have gotten this much on the open market from someone regardless.

Or sticking with Philli, who do we blame for Hartnall's deal?

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Not what I mean. You need to compare with other defensemen salaries and take the circunstances in consideration. This is what the agent of Markov (Meehan) and Gainey did. The salary is not just base on feelings. If you say a guy should get this or that, you need to explain why.

Consequently, that's also what Timonen and his agent did.

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the Points that Timonnen and Markov put up are just extra bonuses to add to the fact they are very good defensively. So rather than say Markov raised the worth of a 50 point D-man, its more like Markov set the bar for 50 point scoring d-men who are very good defensively. and aside from Markov and Timo, there was no one else on par with them in that department on the market.

Yeah, I find it odd how certain fans place so much emphasis on Souray's 'leadership' (an intangible) while only focusing on Markov's point production. Defensive responsibility and the ability to start the attack with a good first pass are extremely important. Markov is very good in both those areas.

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Yeah, I find it odd how certain fans place so much emphasis on Souray's 'leadership' (an intangible) while only focusing on Markov's point production. Defensive responsibility and the ability to start the attack with a good first pass are extremely important. Markov is very good in both those areas.

Or a very interesting stat is our win percentage with him out of the lineup ...

It's impossible to say how many goals Markov is responsible for, because only 2 players get assists ;)

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Guest ChriS_HigGinS#1
Or a very interesting stat is our win percentage with him out of the lineup ...

It's impossible to say how many goals Markov is responsible for, because only 2 players get assists ;)

That's why plus/minus is also a valuable stat to see how often a player is on the ice when a goal is scored compared to when scored against.

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once they hit the market, GMs pay what they think that player is worth to them, not what similar players are making. If Mccabe, Jovo, etc. were making 2 million a piece, Souray would still be getting over 6 million because when you are a UFA it isn't what you are worth arbitrarily, it is what you are worth to one team.

Good point, JL.

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Guest crazyhorse_9000

I think its funny how nobody had bad things to say about Markov before he recieved a salary to match his responsibilities on this team.

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Consequently, that's also what Timonen and his agent did.

Quote for truth.

I think its funny how nobody had bad things to say about Markov before he recieved a salary to match his responsibilities on this team.

And most comments have absolutely nothing negative about him, but some just feel that we overpaid for him. Unlike Souray where many are trying to put down the player in order to try justifying paying less. ;)

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That's why plus/minus is also a valuable stat to see how often a player is on the ice when a goal is scored compared to when scored against.

True. We normally use +/- to judge defense, but I think where it really has some hidden value is as an offensive statistic as well

But it's one of those that can be misused easily. Comparing Markov to someone on Ottawa +/- wise is unfair, but comparing players on the same team gives a decent idea.

Good point, JL.

:lol:

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Guest 1970 Habs
Quote for truth.

And most comments have absolutely nothing negative about him, but some just feel that we overpaid for him. Unlike Souray where many are trying to put down the player in order to try justifying paying less. ;)

There have been comparisons between Souray and Markov that have displayed negative comments towards Markov(ie leadership). I think there are two camps on this and it is too bad.

You cannot argue the fact that Markov has been a more consistent a defenceman than Souray, that he takes less penalties, that his plus minus is better, that he passes out of his zone better, that he is less injury prone.

Souray has a harder shot, a more physical presence and displays his leadership more openly. Markov's leadership is more subdued and displayed by his consistent play (he sets a strong example). Both have their strong points.

But the one thing Markov has that I like is his commitment/dedication to the Montreal Canadiens. He grew in the organization and like Koivu he will probably stay with it.

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Rivet just got a deal from the Sharks for 3.5 million a year for four years.

Markov was ripped off !!!!

:lol:

Like I said, every deal for UFAs or guys a month away from being a UFA shocks us, I don't know why some deny that Markov would have gotten a shocking deal as a UFA as well.

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Guest 1970 Habs
Rivet just got a deal from the Sharks for 3.5 million a year for four years.

Markov was ripped off !!!!

Markov was not ripped off. All that counts is that he and the Canadiens are happy with the deal.

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There have been comparisons between Souray and Markov that have displayed negative comments towards Markov(ie leadership). I think there are two camps on this and it is too bad.

You cannot argue the fact that Markov has been a more consistent a defenceman than Souray, that he takes less penalties, that his plus minus is better, that he passes out of his zone better, that he is less injury prone.

Souray has a harder shot, a more physical presence and displays his leadership more openly. Markov's leadership is more subdued and displayed by his consistent play (he sets a strong example). Both have their strong points.

But the one thing Markov has that I like is his commitment/dedication to the Montreal Canadiens. He grew in the organization and like Koivu he will probably stay with it.

Souray might just be committed if we offered him an inflated contract as well. Funny how we expect Souray to sign at a discount but find every excuses in the books to justify Markov not doing the same! :blink:

Oh and you forgot Souray's offensive input and PP presence, as well as his all-star status across the league. ;)

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Oh and you forgot Souray's offensive input and PP presence, as well as his all-star status across the league. ;)

lol...don't worry, when # 44 signs elsewhere and we don't get another D man to replace him, or should I say a rookie from Hamilton IS his replacement , people will be complaining that we should have offered him more

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Guest 1970 Habs
Souray might just be committed if we offered him an inflated contract as well. Funny how we expect Souray to sign at a discount but find every excuses in the books to justify Markov not doing the same! :blink:

Oh and you forgot Souray's offensive input and PP presence, as well as his all-star status across the league. ;)

Sorry but I have never advocated on any forum signing Souray at $4.5 or even $5M. I have stated several times that his market value is between $6-7M. I stated this before all these new contracts came out the past few days. It is what I expect he will be offered by several teams after 1 July.

Souray has many strong points and I am sorry I missed a few. However I firmly believed at the end of the season (and still believe) that with the type of stats he had he wants to see what the market has to offer as he is 30 and had a career year. Having said that I would liked to have Souray re-signed but it is almost 99% guaranteed that it is not going to happen. He will be an excellent addition on any team that gets him.

I do believe however that Markov is a more balanced defenceman and his durability and stats prove this out. As for his contract that is a business affair between Gainey and Markov (and his agent). I personally think Markov could have gotten about the same on the open Market. Montreal had a more favourable chance of signing Markov as he wanted to stay with the team so Montreal got at least one of the two. That too is just my opinion.

Though I am sad Souray is gone I am glad Markov (who is 28) is signed to a four year deal. The only comment I have on the contract is that in my humble opinion it does not matter what anyone thinks about the contract as long as Montreal and Markov are happy with it. Only time will tell whether (in four years time) the Habs paid value for their money. But by that time a D-man of Rivet's calibre will probably have a market value of $5M.

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Sorry but I have never advocated on any forum signing Souray at $4.5 or even $5M. I have stated several times that his market value is between $6-7M. I stated this before all these new contracts came out the past few days. It is what I expect he will be offered by several teams after 1 July.

Souray has many strong points and I am sorry I missed a few. However I firmly believed at the end of the season (and still believe) that with the type of stats he had he wants to see what the market has to offer as he is 30 and had a career year. Having said that I would liked to have Souray re-signed but it is almost 99% guaranteed that it is not going to happen. He will be an excellent addition on any team that gets him.

I do believe however that Markov is a more balanced defenceman and his durability and stats prove this out. As for his contract that is a business affair between Gainey and Markov (and his agent). I personally think Markov could have gotten about the same on the open Market. Montreal had a more favourable chance of signing Markov as he wanted to stay with the team so Montreal got at least one of the two. That too is just my opinion.

Though I am sad Souray is gone I am glad Markov (who is 28) is signed to a four year deal. The only comment I have on the contract is that in my humble opinion it does not matter what anyone thinks about the contract as long as Montreal and Markov are happy with it. Only time will tell whether (in four years time) the Habs paid value for their money. But by that time a D-man of Rivet's calibre will probably have a market value of $5M.

Fair enough about you not doing like others here and not putting down Souray to try justifying his true market value, but I still disagree with a few of your points, namely his durability. Since his last wrist surgery, in the past 3 full season, Souray has played 219 games (63, 75, 81) to Markov's 213 (69, 67, 77). Souray's wrist injury is one that could have happened to anyone and he's been quite relyable since it's finally been fixed. He can also play injured as shown by his last season with a shoulder injury.

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Souray might just be committed if we offered him an inflated contract as well. Funny how we expect Souray to sign at a discount but find every excuses in the books to justify Markov not doing the same! :blink:

We expect it because Markov is more valuable to the team than Souray, and even Souray himself knows that. Sorry, but in hockey, all men are not created equal. ;)

Oh and you forgot Souray's offensive input and PP presence, as well as his all-star status across the league. ;)

His offensive input largely comes from his PP presence. The two are almost identical. I don't know what 'all-star status across the league' counts for. Does it prevent pucks from going in our net? :lol:

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We expect it because Markov is more valuable to the team than Souray, and even Souray himself knows that. Sorry, but in hockey, all men are not created equal. ;)

His offensive input largely comes from his PP presence. The two are almost identical. I don't know what 'all-star status across the league' counts for. Does it prevent pucks from going in our net? :lol:

I guess I can see the value in both men, which is the biggest difference. ;) As for the +/-, we should also get rid of half the team.

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I guess I can see the value in both men, which is the biggest difference. ;)

But I can see value in Souray too! Just not as much value as Markov. At the end of the day, Markov is more valuable to our team than Souray, so he should be paid more than Souray. There, I'm making my stance as plain as can be. :)

As for the +/-, we should also get rid of half the team.

It's not so much that Souray's plus-minus means HE is a bad player defensively. It's that the difference between his -28 and Markov's +3 is so noticeable that you really can't help but acknowledge that Markov is a better defenseman, especially given that it was Markov, not Souray, who lined up against other teams' top lines night after night.

To put it another way, Souray's -28 doesn't diminish his value, but Markov's +3, on a team like ours with so many bad plus-minus figures, sure raises his value.

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But I can see value in Souray too! Just not as much value as Markov. At the end of the day, Markov is more valuable to our team than Souray, so he should be paid more than Souray. There, I'm making my stance as plain as can be. :)

It's not so much that Souray's plus-minus means HE is a bad player defensively. It's that the difference between his -28 and Markov's +3 is so noticeable that you really can't help but acknowledge that Markov is a better defenseman, especially given that it was Markov, not Souray, who lined up against other teams' top lines night after night.

To put it another way, Souray's -28 doesn't diminish his value, but Markov's +3, on a team like ours with so many bad plus-minus figures, sure raises his value.

There is absolutely no doubt that Markov is superior to Souray defensively and I will never deny that, but Souray is superior to Markov offensively by a large margin, especially now that he's finally gained confidence and his wrist seems to be at 100%. The difference between the two isn't as much as some want to beleive otherwise, why would the market value lean so heavily towards players like Jovanovski, Chara, McCabe and Souray? Because high quality QB's for the PP are few and far between and much harder to find than defensive defenseman, including defensemen like Markov, Timonen, Salo and company who aren't bad offensively.

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