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Why can't Montreal draw top players?


Hoyle00cdn

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Guest Hoyle00cdn

I did the math last night and made this image....

I don't know if this will put the debates about taxes to rest or not. I calculated the value of a 5 million dollar contract after taxes in each and every state province. Montreal's provincial taxes are the highest, but keep in mind that America has a higher federal tax then Canada. These are rough number and I didn't worry about tax brackets because the difference in bracket percentages are usually under 50 000.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Hoyl...L-IncomeTax.png

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert in state or provincial taxes, so there may be errors, but I'm pretty sure the general idea is close to being correct.

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Guest Brando
I did the math last night and made this image....

I don't know if this will put the debates about taxes to rest or not. I calculated the value of a 5 million dollar contract after taxes in each and every state province. Montreal's provincial taxes are the highest, but keep in mind that America has a higher federal tax then Canada. These are rough number and I didn't worry about tax brackets because the difference in bracket percentages are usually under 50 000.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Hoyl...L-IncomeTax.png

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert in state or provincial taxes, so there may be errors, but I'm pretty sure the general idea is close to being correct.

Good information - thanks! I think it clearly illustrates how little taxes enter into the decision. If they did, players would be clammering to play in Edmonton, where the taxes are among the lowest anywhere the NHL plays. Clearly, that's not the case. Florida has everything it seems - climate, and low taxes. Too bad, other than displaced snowbirds, nobody there knows what hockey is.

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Guest Hoyle00cdn

My friend and I were trying to put together all the possible factors that would come into play....

1) climate

2) income tax

3) communal opportunity (ie. Edmonton has nothing but its mall)

4) family oriented atmosphere (Raleigh NC, is rumoured to be one of the best places to raise a family)

5) if the team is a contender (ie Detroit, Pittsburgh)

6) level of media pressure

Taxes probably do play a role but there are other factors equally at play too.

However someone could argue that the general trend today is to sign long term contracts. The difference between Montreal and Dallas would be 0.67 million., which doesn't sound like much, but if you factor that over 7 years, the difference is 4.65 million.

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Guest overlords
My friend and I were trying to put together all the possible factors that would come into play....

1) climate

2) income tax

3) communal opportunity (ie. Edmonton has nothing but its mall)

4) family oriented atmosphere (Raleigh NC, is rumoured to be one of the best places to raise a family)

5) if the team is a contender (ie Detroit, Pittsburgh)

6) level of media pressure

Taxes probably do play a role but there are other factors equally at play too.

Climate can't be that huge of a factor considering both sakic and smyth both obviously want to play in colorado. I can't picture the climate there being THAT much better than here.

As for family oriented atmosphere, you can't really go high up on the "communal oppurtunity" while having an outstanding family oriented atmosphere. Here in montreal, you can do anything you want, but it's definately not the best place in raising your family if you want a nice secluded area. But if you're raking in the millions, why wouldn't you go live in a big city? I understand maybe a vacation home in NC may be nice but comon, these guys are multi-millionaires, they're not gonna sell the mercedes for a bungalow down in Caraliner.

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Guest Hoyle00cdn

I don't know......

my conclusion from all this is that there are too many factors to look at here and in the end the argument is too subjective, so you can't really make any generalizations as to how a player picks the team he plays for.

The one factor I'm leaning closest to is "team contention". If a team is a cup contender, they're always going to fair better in the FA market.

Montreal's recent strategy seems to be like LA's in past years. Sign a lot of fringe players and hope that your rookies or draft picks can rise above and make the team attractive.

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Guest jzun00
I did the math last night and made this image....

I don't know if this will put the debates about taxes to rest or not. I calculated the value of a 5 million dollar contract after taxes in each and every state province. Montreal's provincial taxes are the highest, but keep in mind that America has a higher federal tax then Canada. These are rough number and I didn't worry about tax brackets because the difference in bracket percentages are usually under 50 000.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Hoyl...L-IncomeTax.png

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert in state or provincial taxes, so there may be errors, but I'm pretty sure the general idea is close to being correct.

That is a great job and great tool.

Thanks.

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Guest overlords

Maybe. I still think it's all *****. There's no way that 2 of the top 10 went to new york thinking they were contenders. New York has to be one of the most overrated city's I've ever been to. Now if you're a hockey player, why not go somewhere where you can be appreciated. Outside MSG, there IS NO HOCKEY in newyork. There's no such thing. And the food sucks there too :P. I'm not saying they should all be coming to montreal. But comon, edmonton is a cool city and they should be lining up to go there as well. Besides montreal it's probably the biggest hockey city out there right? Something doesn't add up. either hockey players are as dumb as the stereotype or they're being fed bad info through their agents....

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Guest Hoyle00cdn

No one has mentioned the fact that Montreal has had dressing room problems for the past 3 seasons. I'm pretty sure that plays a big factor.

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Guest Brando
I don't know......

my conclusion from all this is that there are too many factors to look at here and in the end the argument is too subjective, so you can't really make any generalizations as to how a player picks the team he plays for.

The one factor I'm leaning closest to is "team contention". If a team is a cup contender, they're always going to fair better in the FA market.

Montreal's recent strategy seems to be like LA's in past years. Sign a lot of fringe players and hope that your rookies or draft picks can rise above and make the team attractive.

I agree that "Team contention" is probably the biggest factor. Not even necessarily the highest probability of winning the cup. But a chance for the player to have a key, starring role, and to be a "hero" in the eyes of loyal fans. There have been lots of examples of players that have never won the cup, but who have been adored and revered by their fans. To me there is not or should not be enough of a difference between $7MM in Montreal and $7MM in Florida. (Sure to some small number of players who have a very affluent life style it may be a factor). More likely, concerns about language, culture, and potentially, the climate would affect someone's choice to move to Florida versus Montreal. My honest belief is that the "other" factors besides "Team contention" have a large bearing -

will I be able to play my style of hockey, or am I going to be pressured into playing a different role in a "system"? Would Briere be comfortable in New Jersey (or in Montreal - even though culturally, linguistically, and from a climate familiarity perspective he would be a shoe-in). And of course, media pressure and fan attitude.

I can't help but feel that seeing Samsonov benched last year, and seeing Kovalev on the 4th line, has a major influence in a UFA's thought process. "What if I don't play well in their system - am I going to be Booed, demoted, benched, bought out", etc?

I think in the current Edmonton case (as well as for Pronger last year), spousal preferences play a big role - I think this is also true of established marquis players like Selanne, Forsberg and Shannahan who can pretty much go wherever they like since they are at a career point where they are not as concerned about salary.

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Guest drydenforprimeminister

At that level it's not about the taxes, etc...that's the excuse. If this was the 1976 Habs, guys would be paying the Habs to play there and take a 3rd floor walk up in the east end without whining, because, especially for older guys who have not won, it's about winning. The issue remains the same:

No franchise player on the books or the horizon, not likely to finish low enough to get one, but not willing to spend enough to buy one. No #1 centre, No #1 defenceman;

Sam Pollock always said the team that gets the best player wins a trade. With the number of picks the Habs had this year, and the guys they need to get rid of (insert Kovalev's name here) and what they did with them, they should've tried to make a blockbuster, included Kovalev and Huet in the package and tried to get on with life.

Sorry, I have been a Habs fan since the sixties and it's not going to happen in the next 3 years guys. The ONLY hope for this year would be for the following:

-Kostitsyn is better than anyone thinks (shorter version of Rick Nash)

-Ryder learns how to cover his guy

-Yemelin shows up and is 1/2 Kaspiritus; 1/2 Bobby Orr

-A team out West loses their goalie long term just about the time Price has put in 30 games in the AHL, allowing Gainey to package up Huet, Kovalev and some variety of the 4th liners, 6th defencemen there are SO many of on the roster for a real player

-Koivu has a couple of career seasons.

Sorry guys, go down our roster next to Anaheim's or Detriot's, Ottawa's and it's pretty obvious. No need to map out the parade route this year.

Other than that, see ya in 8th place again this year.

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Guest Renko
At that level it's not about the taxes, etc...that's the excuse. If this was the 1976 Habs, guys would be paying the Habs to play there and take a 3rd floor walk up in the east end without whining, because, especially for older guys who have not won, it's about winning. The issue remains the same:

No franchise player on the books or the horizon, not likely to finish low enough to get one, but not willing to spend enough to buy one. No #1 centre, No #1 defenceman;

Sam Pollock always said the team that gets the best player wins a trade. With the number of picks the Habs had this year, and the guys they need to get rid of (insert Kovalev's name here) and what they did with them, they should've tried to make a blockbuster, included Kovalev and Huet in the package and tried to get on with life.

Sorry, I have been a Habs fan since the sixties and it's not going to happen in the next 3 years guys. The ONLY hope for this year would be for the following:

-Kostitsyn is better than anyone thinks (shorter version of Rick Nash)

-Ryder learns how to cover his guy

-Yemelin shows up and is 1/2 Kaspiritus; 1/2 Bobby Orr

-A team out West loses their goalie long term just about the time Price has put in 30 games in the AHL, allowing Gainey to package up Huet, Kovalev and some variety of the 4th liners, 6th defencemen there are SO many of on the roster for a real player

-Koivu has a couple of career seasons.

Sorry guys, go down our roster next to Anaheim's or Detriot's, Ottawa's and it's pretty obvious. No need to map out the parade route this year.

Other than that, see ya in 8th place again this year.

Some pretty good points...

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This is an interesting topic on its own and it was getting the off-season's topic off-topic. I've spit the topics and created this one.
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Guest drydenforprimeminister

re: FA's to Mtl;

Good points about the system and how players are treated. However, most hockey guys know that there's a reason that Samsonov and Kovalev have moved around a fair bit. (insert adjective here) I think the way Carbo treated Rivet (which was acknowledged by the club as a mistake) probably did more damage to the clubs reputation, that was brutal and uncalled for. And if you look at what they did with Theo, turned out to be a brilliant move by Gainey in hindsite.

Agreed that climate and spousal approval would be issues, but Mtl has a lot to offer as city, no question, I think it might be more to do with the climate around the team. Since the Lemaire era, where he basically caused Lafleur to retire through his system, the Habs have had very autocratic, system focused coaches, with maybe the exception of Vigneault, and look what he did last year. Julien wasn't as big a dickhead as some of the others as well. But with Gainey and Carbo running the show, players know it won't be run and gun, there'll be lots of pressure to play as a unit and mistakes will be punished.

Had they got past Carolina two years ago, it might be very different, and they will need to go deep to show that their concept works, much like Lamirello did, but eventually everyone gets tired of being treated like a punk and guys want to move on to a better work environment. I hope that Kirk Muller's influence and attitude can be more prevalent with the young players and make it less like shoveling coal and more like living the dream....

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Guest steph(Quintal)prevost
At that level it's not about the taxes, etc...that's the excuse. If this was the 1976 Habs, guys would be paying the Habs to play there and take a 3rd floor walk up in the east end without whining, because, especially for older guys who have not won, it's about winning. The issue remains the same:

No franchise player on the books or the horizon, not likely to finish low enough to get one, but not willing to spend enough to buy one. No #1 centre, No #1 defenceman;

Sam Pollock always said the team that gets the best player wins a trade. With the number of picks the Habs had this year, and the guys they need to get rid of (insert Kovalev's name here) and what they did with them, they should've tried to make a blockbuster, included Kovalev and Huet in the package and tried to get on with life.

Sorry, I have been a Habs fan since the sixties and it's not going to happen in the next 3 years guys. The ONLY hope for this year would be for the following:

-Kostitsyn is better than anyone thinks (shorter version of Rick Nash)

-Ryder learns how to cover his guy

-Yemelin shows up and is 1/2 Kaspiritus; 1/2 Bobby Orr

-A team out West loses their goalie long term just about the time Price has put in 30 games in the AHL, allowing Gainey to package up Huet, Kovalev and some variety of the 4th liners, 6th defencemen there are SO many of on the roster for a real player

-Koivu has a couple of career seasons.

Sorry guys, go down our roster next to Anaheim's or Detriot's, Ottawa's and it's pretty obvious. No need to map out the parade route this year.

Other than that, see ya in 8th place again this year.

Oh boy, I hate to say it but you are so right. Great post.

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Guest habsfan4eternity
Maybe. I still think it's all *****. There's no way that 2 of the top 10 went to new york thinking they were contenders. New York has to be one of the most overrated city's I've ever been to. Now if you're a hockey player, why not go somewhere where you can be appreciated. Outside MSG, there IS NO HOCKEY in newyork. There's no such thing. And the food sucks there too :P. I'm not saying they should all be coming to montreal. But comon, edmonton is a cool city and they should be lining up to go there as well. Besides montreal it's probably the biggest hockey city out there right? Something doesn't add up. either hockey players are as dumb as the stereotype or they're being fed bad info through their agents....

Calgary is a way bigger hockey city now then edmonton is! Edmonton used to be bigger when they still had players like Messier and Gretzky.

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Guest tundrawalker1

There are several reasons. In no particular order:

Fans. Montreal is a city known to crucify its players who do not perform up to expectations. If a player is going through a slump, and all players do, the fans are on them and even boo them when they touch the puck. Even the face of the franchise, Patrick Roy, got the raspberry in his last game with the habs.

Media. Much like the fans only more relentless. The media has nothing good to say, ever. Even this year's draft, the media complained the habs did not select enough French Canadians. Forget the fact they took players whom they felt were the most needed. Naw, the media thinks the habs should consist of entirely french canadians. And if a player cannot speak french, good lord!

Schooling. I cannot say for sure, but I believe I heard that any anglophone family that moves to Montreal has to enroll their children in French schools. If this is not the case, the drop this one.

Philosophy. This team is built for defence and is coached defensively. The Coach was a defensive player. The GM was a defensive player. When the habs are up in a game, they sit back and play the trap. If you were an offensive player, would you rather play on a team where you will be forced to play a dual role or on a team where the team scores move than 270 goals a year.

GM. I do not think Bob Gainey is able to lure premiere players here. I do not feel he can sell the idea of playing here.

Coach. Carbonneau favours certain players. He alienated Samsonov and Kovalev. He favours Ryden and french canadians.

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Guest Godfather
There are several reasons. In no particular order:

Fans. Montreal is a city known to crucify its players who do not perform up to expectations. If a player is going through a slump, and all players do, the fans are on them and even boo them when they touch the puck. Even the face of the franchise, Patrick Roy, got the raspberry in his last game with the habs.

Media. Much like the fans only more relentless. The media has nothing good to say, ever. Even this year's draft, the media complained the habs did not select enough French Canadians. Forget the fact they took players whom they felt were the most needed. Naw, the media thinks the habs should consist of entirely french canadians. And if a player cannot speak french, good lord!

Schooling. I cannot say for sure, but I believe I heard that any anglophone family that moves to Montreal has to enroll their children in French schools. If this is not the case, the drop this one.

Philosophy. This team is built for defence and is coached defensively. The Coach was a defensive player. The GM was a defensive player. When the habs are up in a game, they sit back and play the trap. If you were an offensive player, would you rather play on a team where you will be forced to play a dual role or on a team where the team scores move than 270 goals a year.

GM. I do not think Bob Gainey is able to lure premiere players here. I do not feel he can sell the idea of playing here.

Coach. Carbonneau favours certain players. He alienated Samsonov and Kovalev. He favours Ryden and french canadians.

It's mostly the media thats the big factor because they make it as though to play hockey in Montreal you have to speak french which i think is pretty ignorant considering some of these players come form different countries and have english as a 2nd language. I can read, speak and write in 4 languages. Each time i speak in one language more i get better at it and the more i get worse at the others. It's especially hard for a player seeing as how they already know 2 they are being forced to answer question in another language they have thrust upon them. It's simply not fair i wouldn't care if we had a guy who could only speak chinese all that matters to me is if he plays hockey.

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Guest The_Hockey_Specialist

Want to know why players don't want to play here? Quite frankly it's the media. You can bet there was a HUGE factor these last few years. For example, was it on the mind of say, Shanahan last year when Koivu was having a meeting with the media at the end of the season about a potential CAREER ENDING EYE INJURY when some French news reporter got on the case of Koivu for not having learned French all these years? It was brutal and I felt ashamed even though I wasn't the person who said such a thing. I felt embarrassed to be a Habs fan that a character guy like Koivu was picked on for such a thing, at that exact sad moment in his life, a player who has been with Montreal through thick and thin during our rebuilding years, went thru cancer, donated to charity heavily...

Shanahan was probably thinking, if they find ways to crucify Koivu, of all people, he was wondering what they'd do to him!

Taxes/Climate can be one issue but the media/fans is another on a completely different level. Remember, the star players we wanted this year, signed for LESS, than the offers they would have to come here. Why? Because they didn't want the media attention and dealing the asinine fans.

Unless the people start getting supportive, this will never change.

I can't even listen to team 990 with dummies like Picard and company picking on Hamerlik for being worth 1/3 of Souray, etc... whine whine whine. It's sickening.

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Guest Dintrox12

" Sorry, I have been a Habs fan since the sixties and it's not going to happen in the next 3 years guys.... "

We weren't supposed to win in 1986 but a hot rookie goalie ( Roy), and other rookies (Dahlin, Corson) and a European (Naslund) had a 100 point reg season... The team had a phenomenal run for the cup... In 1993, we finished 3rd in our conference and got it done... I believe The Habs will win the cup before the end of the decade.. They ve won a cup in every decade and its gonna happen!!!

2007- 08 --- Huet and/or Halak gets hot. Koivu has another awesome year... Lahti does a Dahlin ... character players work their butts off and we bring the cup back to montreal for the 25th time and back to Canada where it belongs...

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Guest Godfather
It's the media. Montreal likes hockey too much.

I Wouldn't say the like hockey "too much" because if they did they wouldnt care about what language a player would order his french fries. Sometimes i get the feeling from the media expecially(they are no way the voice of residents of montreal), that they don't care how much the canadiens lose as long as they have french players regardless of how good they are because they make them out to be stars.

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Guest Miltie01

It is a combination of all the above !!!!

Add the fact that we are not winning and you see the result.

The answer is to stay the coarse and build the team. When we start winning, they will come, and ignore whatever other negatives exist.

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Guest Godfather
It is a combination of all the above !!!!

Add the fact that we are not winning and you see the result.

The answer is to stay the coarse and build the team. When we start winning, they will come, and ignore whatever other negatives exist.

Honestly the best way to build a team is work from the back then up to the front. Get solid goaltending, then solid defence, then grab your forwards.

Why do you think washington,st louis,chicago..etc. are always fighting for last place. It's because they buld from the top aquiring forwards but never getting future goalies or solid defenders.

In short, Bob is doing a great job grabbing all these defenders because we'll need them and they will be worth more then forwards soon enough because theres only a handful of d-men out there who can actually move the offenders out of the crease. It's only a mater of time before the chemistry starts clicking. I know alot of people are saying "we have nobody" "we got nothing".

What we do have ladies and gentlemen is a future. A great development camp and great veteran mentors i think we are better than we were last season and our team has always had the potential to go far, but it's time to start looking away from what we don't got and look at what we do.

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Guest Hoser

Taxes are a big part of it.

Demanding fans are another.

The <Edited> -weepingminotaur media is a bigger one.

Climate has something to do with it, although I personally love the weather in southern Quebec...

The backwards style of hockey we play (a style that is only possible with Brodeur in nets) is the biggest one, though. We assemble a team of smallish, skilled and speedy players - than tell them to dump and chase and play a passive-offensive game. And we always seem to go after those small, speedy guys - Briere being the latest example. Why would a high-octane offensive star sign with an uncreative team like Montreal? Until we get a whole new coaching philosophy we'll always be doomed to a line-up of B-stars and pluggers.

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