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The Goaltending Thread 2008-09


franck5890

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Scouts are not that reliable. If everyone was saying the world was square, it does not mean that is true. The scouts picked 51 players over Patrick Roy when he was drafted, and two of them were goalies. The only player that should have possibly been taken before Roy was Mario Lemiux. This has happened over and over throughout history. Scouts making error after error. Also you can't compare goalie stats from one era to another because of changes in rules, equpment, and style of play etc.

I'm not saying scouts are perfect, but they are more reliable then you or I, like I said there are more stars taken in the 1st round then any other round, that's because it's not just one big guessing game. I'm not saying it's END of discussion, but I am saying when this many smart people are in agreement, there's usually a reason. I see Carey Price for myself, I watched all 82 games last year and I see what they see, his potential is off the charts.

As for comparing goalies from one era to another, I compared him to Luongo and Brodeur, and while the rule changes make it slightly harder to compare, all the reasons you named (smaller equipment, change in rules, style of play) are actually working against Carey when compared to those 2 making it all the more impressive.

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1. we did have an experienced goalie backing him up...then we traded him for nothing.

2. scouts are wrong all the time, nobody can predict the future.

3. my point exactly, he was too young for the job. ur saying they put him in knowing he wasn't going to be able to perform, and he very well didn't. and we all know how strong gainey feels towards price, thats y this thread exists lol

1. Huet didn't have much experience at all, sure he was older but his experience (especially in big games) was minimal.

2. Scouts are wrong a lot, but like I said no one is predicting the future they're making an assessment based on a kid's talent level and potential. Ofcourse a lot can go wrong with work habits and personality but it's a lot more scientific then you appear to admit. If you look through out history there's obviously more stars taken in the first round then any other round, and there's more stars drafted in the top 5 of drafts then the bottom 5.

3. I didn't say they put him in feeling he wasn't going to be able to perform, I was saying that anytime you have a first year goalie consistency will be an issue, that's been proven throughout history. That would have been an issue if Carey was 20 or 23-24 there's just nothing like being in the NHL, in the other leagues a special talent like Carey can get by on talent alone the big wake up call came in the conditioning level it takes to be consistent in this league.

If you had put in Halak, consistency would have big as much of a concern as with Price because of the minimal experience. Also Huet was obviously inconsistent, it's not like we slide Carey infront of Brodeur here, the other 2 possibilities had just as many question marks as Price did.

It's fine that Gainey feels strongly toward Price it's Bob's job to make the tough decisions. By the way, the whole scouting staff feels that way, that's why they wanted to take him 5th overall. Gainey's in charge, and he's in charge because he's done it before at this level (winning a cup) and the people upstairs trust his decision making. Sure, I've questioned some decisions too but at the end of the day he knows more then I do, he's been right more then I have and right now I see no reason to not have atleast some faith in his judgment.

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I will add onto your points roy:

On what we got back for him: What did you expect? The market for goaltenders is extremly barren, especially around the trade deadline when nearly all the contenders are usually set in net (otherwise they wouldnt be contenders.) Washington knew there wasn't a huge market of teams banging on Gainey's door for Huet.

Also Gainey knew Huet wasn't coming back for 4-5 mil+ so it was either this year or next year he has to put Price in the playoffs untested and it might as well of been the year before all our big scorers hit free agency.

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i think it took price like 25 games to record his first shut-out. halak did it this year on his second. SO WHAT if he's played more games, all that proves is they favor him through thick and thin.....and more thick if i may add. and we are here to win games....not give up leads in the playoffs! we are a TEAM!!!! a team that HALAK IS PART OF!!!!!

LOL I can't believe I'm reading this. What does it matter if it took Carey more games to record a shutout? If it took Crosby longer to record a hattrick then it took Jeff Carter does that make Carter a better player? Like I don't understand that logic at all.

You're acting as if Carey was just bad last year. The guy had a .920 sv%! That's incredible for a goalie his age, over 40+ games. You also must admit that the organization sees things with these 2 that we don't, we don't get to see them every practice, and that could play a role in their assessment (although I don't think you need to look very hard to see Carey Price is a better goalie then Halak).

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Yea that logic about 25 games to get a shutout made no sense.

and the whole "Huet is more experienced" thing doesn't have much ground either. He's older and played more games overall, but, correct me if i'm wrong, doesn't Carey Price have more playoff game wins? And Huet hasn't won a series yet, right?

No poking at Huet, just that whole fiasco needs to be dropped. just like the grabovski thing. We got Lang and Tanguay with those picks we used in those trades.

So things worked out.

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u c that is exactly our arguement, price did play more games than halak. in fact he's played more bad games than halak's played games. he's been pulled almost as many times as halak has started. i think it took price like 25 games to record his first shut-out. halak did it this year on his second. SO WHAT if he's played more games, all that proves is they favor him through thick and thin.....and more thick if i may add. and we are here to win games....not give up leads in the playoffs! we are a TEAM!!!! a team that HALAK IS PART OF!!!!!

Nice of you to overlook Price's wins and shutouts from last year. You're comparing Price's actual performance to Halak's potential performance, which is neither logical nor warranted. There is no way of knowing how Halak would have performed if he'd played as often as Price. Let's stop wasting our time with counterfactuals and deal with what actually did happen. And based on that, there is no reason to pull Price and play Halak. You have to show confidence in your starting goalie or he'll lose his confidence.

As for Huet, that's a completely separate issue that is now MOOT. He's gone, he's not coming back, and as much as we might want an experienced backup for Price, we ain't got it. All we have is Halak, who is even less experienced than Price. So why exactly would Carbonneau play Halak? Because we're curious to see how he does as a starter? That's not how you contend for a Cup.

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are you done?

so what if the pens gave up on fleury two years ago when they got put out by ottawa?

"well he lost his FIRST play off series, i guess he cant get us we better go out and play someone else"

no they stuck with him and he lead them to stanley cup finals the next year.

grow up and stop acting like halaks mother.we have yet to play a singal regular season game. so why dont we hold all of our comments untill we can actually back it up with THIS seasons performance.

right but fleury didnt lose that series, the penguins did. the opposite was for us last year. but i dont wanna start fights. and price played really really well against last years champs!!! but if he falters he shouldn't get special treatment....thats all dude

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right but fleury didnt lose that series, the penguins did. the opposite was for us last year. but i dont wanna start fights. and price played really really well against last years champs!!! but if he falters he shouldn't get special treatment....thats all dude

fleury was brutal, and he price never got special treatment, thats why halak played against philly. he also didnt do much better.

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I'm not saying scouts are perfect, but they are more reliable then you or I, like I said there are more stars taken in the 1st round then any other round, that's because it's not just one big guessing game. I'm not saying it's END of discussion, but I am saying when this many smart people are in agreement, there's usually a reason. I see Carey Price for myself, I watched all 82 games last year and I see what they see, his potential is off the charts.

As for comparing goalies from one era to another, I compared him to Luongo and Brodeur, and while the rule changes make it slightly harder to compare, all the reasons you named (smaller equipment, change in rules, style of play) are actually working against Carey when compared to those 2 making it all the more impressive.

Fair enough on your first point. I disagree with your second paragragh though. I feel goalies have it much easier now than previous seasons and which is why about 35 goalies have .900 save percentages and higher. Teams play much better defense which is one of the main reasons goal scoring is down I feel.

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I feel goalies have it much easier now than previous seasons and which is why about 35 goalies have .900 save percentages and higher. Teams play much better defense which is one of the main reasons goal scoring is down I feel.

I disagree, I think with the new regulation on equipment, the inability to play the puck behind the redline, the inability of the defense to hook and hold guys, and the increased number of PP's it's harder to be a goalie right now then it was in the mid-late 90's when Luongo came up.

I agree the comparison isn't fair in terms of "Price did this and Brodeur did that and Fuhr did that ect" but you can look at a goalies numbers against the average stats of NHL goalies during that year and get a good idea where they stand/stood, and even doing that comparing Price against the rest of the league he holds up very well to other goalies aged 20 and under through out the years.

I'm not saying this means Price will be as good as those guys, I just don't think the whole "Price has everything handed to him and doesn't deserve his job" thing is fair. The kid did things in junior, world junior and in the AHL that was special, and that got his foot in the door. If he did the samething as a 7th round draft pick I really believe he'd have gotten almost as good a chance to stick with the big club as he did as a 5th overall pick. He put up very good numbers last year, that's good enough to allow him to start the season as our guy imo, and being the guy he deserve atleast some rope, he deserves to be given a chance to rebound when he struggles. I'm not saying he can go out next year and bomb for 20 games at a time and keep his job, he still has to prove he can handle the NHL load, which he didn't do last year, imo because of poor conditioning. If Carey struggles for a very large portion of the year and Halak still isn't given atleast a shot to get his foot in the door then maybe I'll buy this unfair argument, but imo what's unfair is people overlooking what Price did to get his foot in the door here.

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What's interesting here is that most of the Price fans are more interested in asserting that Price is #1 than in thinking about what is best for the team. So many of the posts focus on what is best for Price and his development. Their criticism of those arguing for Halak also usually deals with the individual. My posts have always dwelt on what I think is best for the team.....whether that be Price, Halak, H--t, Denis or whoever....I don't want to see Price fail in order that Halak is promoted........but I don't want to see what happened at the end of last season happen again...

1) Past History - yes much of this debate is over for the moment, Price will be the starter for the beginning of the season. But you know the cliche, "He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it". Fact is at the start of last season Huet was doing very nicely and had a reasonable level of experience, Halak had been AHL goalie of the year and had played very well in a number of NHL games and nearly took us into the playoffs (many say he would have if we'd played him against TO). Price had played outstandingly in key series but had not played at the professional level (AHL) over a long period of time.....a talented rookie in any sport is tough to beat until the

opposition get to know their strengths and wekanesses......never mind the fact that he is young, been in stressful games with little break, a small town guy getting used to cities, media, fans etc........why not let him play in Hamilton for a month or two, see what

Huet can do, see what Halak can do......when you are ready trade one of them for good value and let Price ease into the job,

especially because he is so young and has many many years ahead of him. Instead we drove him to the point of exhausation.

2)Final word on the Huet 'trade'......with so little being offered and considering he had played quite well earlier in the season and

in the past......why not keep him around for insurance and eat the contract......it certainly would have helped when Price faltered.

3) Last season was NOT a success by any means and no Price can not be totally blamed for the playoffs but the goalie, rightly or wrongly sets the tone for how a whole team will play....look at Biron. I am angry about the season because we were a first place team who was nearly eliminated in the first series by a team they owned all season. We were eliminated in the second series by another team we owned. We lost a #1 NHL goalie for a second round pick and he went on to play outstandingly for Washington. We had an AHL goalie of the year who we still are not certain can play at the NHL level and thus will have limited trade value. We drove Price to his mental and maybe physical limits. Most of all we didn't adjust to how our team played and how the other teams played. It may have been no different with Huet/Halak (we will never know for sure) but we do know that what I and others predicted would happen if Price was promoted too quickly - did happen and we lost, badly.

4)Experience - at this point in time Price has more NHL experience than Halak but this was not the case last season......it is funny that the same people that criticize Halak for this were the ones who wanted Price put ahead of Halak and Huet last year at this point of the season. Not to mention Halak has tons of "professional" experience AHL and NHL......but many don't take AHL seriously. (and don't forget Denis has experience)

5)One game means nothing so when Price or Halak get blown out in a game (or even two) it is not time for a change but when a trend is spotted in the goalie's play or demaenor it IS time for a change, plus it is a long season so let's see what we've got before we commit and let's be ready for injury, slump etc by keeping our options open.

Let's hope the Habs win with whoever is in net, but let's hope the coaches and admin don't get blinded by the cult of personality in goal or any other position. Let's hope they coach and manage depending on the opponent, series, time of season and situation.

A bientot!

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SwanSee, you have to let it go.

It’s a known fact that the Canadiens wanted to move Huet instead of (your words) “eating up a contract. It’s also a known fact that no one in the NHL needed him for less than a second rounder. Washington ate a couple months of cash, and now they have Theo, as Huet wanted 5+ million freakin dollars :D .

When Carey was drafted in 05, he has been in the management’s eyes as a future goalie. But when he looked like the next future Canadiens Superstar at the World Juniors ad then in Hamilton during the playoffs, they began looking at him as THE next franchise player. So many things are involved in that besides just playing nets. Huet had to go, Carey needed playoff experience, and Halak became #2.

Your third point is way off. The org did learn something, and I bet they met all their seasonal objectives by Feb, which meant they could do whatever they wanted. I know for a fact that Carey learned something. As did Kos bros, Higgins, Lats (cough cough), and everyone else who has never appeared in the post season.

Price fans are just that. They want to see him succeed, and they want as much of him as they can get. It’s not us that assume he’s number 1, look at the camp, and the pre-season. It’s a friggin given. :D

I know we all want to voice our opinions. I’m doing it right now :P . And my voice says “Give it up”.

You’re really not going to like this next point. I have been a fan of Marc Denis since he played for Team Canada, and I hope he makes the backup role of the Canadiens. :o

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It's like, if this is REALLY about being best for the team, we will STICK with the one goalie and have the other play the backup role.

Nobody doubts halak's skills (at least I hope not), it's just Carey is either on par with halak, or will be better. And as of now, you can either say they are equal, or that Price is better, cause honestly, Price has proven more BECAUSE, yes, he has had more time in the NHL. But he has also won MVP and blah blah you know the rest. And because of that, he IS our goalie.

This whole "let's play whoever is hot" type thing that some members have proposed in here will be EXACTLY what this team DOES NOT need. What we need is a set tandem, and so our team adapts properly to the starting goalie's style of play which is different than Halak's (Price comes out a lot more, better puck handler)

I'm not about THIS GOALIE or THAT GOALIE, but it's clear that the Habs want to ride with Price, and therefore, that's what brought me on as well.

I root for Halak, I really like the guy, and IF (anything's possible) he does win the #1 spot, I'll be following him. This isn't about no bandwagon jumping or anything, I'm riding with the team.

But please, not another 50/50 season with two goalies only to be confused with who is really going to take us or if either is actually really ready since they were so inconsistent enough that both goalies needed to be played. It doesn't work.

And Huet....damn...the trade is done, thank god we got something, It's not like Huet had proven he was a stanley cup winner or something like that, so let's STOP putting him up on some god-like pedestal. It's not like he hasn't had shaky legs and messed up before.

He's a good goalie, but good luck to him elsewhere, we have our tandem. His trade brought back something at least.

This management has brought our team back up. Yet there's still room to nitpick? Pens get knocked out and go to cup finals. Detroit was stacked and got knocked out in first round a few times before winning the cup again.

It's like we aren't allowed to MAKE A MISTAKE. This team is HUMAN, and this year, they are more EXPERIENCED humans.

I'm done with this thread until the new season starts.

ps. not meant to be harsh to any poster or member or anything...it's just debate between us.

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