Nhl Mulls Idea Of A Second Team In Toronto

[Innis_Mor]

As far as a Hamilton team being a tough sell for Americans. I'm sure most Americans still can't tell you where Edmonton or Calgary are.

I've met Texans that haven't a clue where Toronto is ... "... is it mountainous there, or flat? ..." (Yes, she was a pretty blond; but that's besides the point. "Well, unlike you, the Toronto area is quite _____ ... " )

[tmash]

I've met Texans that haven't a clue where Toronto is ... "... is it mountainous there, or flat? ..." (Yes, she was a pretty blond; but that's besides the point. "Well, unlike you, the Toronto area is quite _____ ... " )

I don't know the answer to that. It's not prairie flat, but it's certainly not mountainous either. For someone in Texas to know a detail like that, I'd be really impressed.

[bailey1]

Just finished reading an article in the Globe this morning about the issue at hand, and was reading some of the comments. This one made me laugh:

W Peter Acheson from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada writes: Typical Cry Baby TO, if we gave Hamilton an NHL TEam TO would want one too..

[roy_133]

Win lose or draw, its really not the point. We bash Toronto a lot, but to be fair, they have loyal fans & their fan base is huge. Depending upon which stat you take, GTA is either 5.1 or 5.5 million people. Calgary has a very viable team with a fan base of just over a million. Edmonton's is just under.

There's no real reason to think Toronto's area couldnt support 2 hockey teams.

If I was a leaf's fan I wouldnt like it (just like I would not like a second team in montreal) because it detracts from MY team - but hey, thats their problem.

Your bang on, a second team in Toronto makes a lot more sense then a team in Hamilton. They'll have an absolutely state of the art building to play in, a financial sector willing to pay big money for private boxes. MLSE would make a fair amount of money renting out the building, and the new tenant would also make a lot of money playing there in that city with the built in hockey fanbase.

You look at how hard it is, for example, to get season tickets in TO, or how expensive, it shows you the demand. I see no reason it wouldn't spill over to another team... Sure, they wouldn't be the Leafs in terms of marketability and profits, but they would be one of the bigger market/money teams in the league imo.

[HabsFanInCalgary]

interesting point, but I'm not so sure how it holds up. The truth is that I'm sure plenty of Americans also haven't heard of Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary (and maybe even Montreal). Hockey fans know of these cities basically because we placed teams there.

Calgary and Motreal are well known places to Americans. Too many festivals < Calgary Stampede in Calgary/ Blues/Jazz/Comedy festivals in Montreal> for them not to be. Favorite vacationing spot for a poor American is Canada < at the rate the dollars going they might just own us soon>

And I certainly agree Hamilton wouldn't be a "big" draw, but I don't know that it would be any worse than a lot of other teams. I mean there are some games fans go to for the opposing team, but there's already plenty of games where they are just going for the home team anyways, I'm not sure Hamilton would make things any worse. When people go to a team for the road team it's because of:

- regional rivalary (Toronto can price Montreal and Ottawa games)

- fans from other teams in your building

- the players (Pittsburgh)

- good team (Detroit)

- storied franchise (any original six, maybe Edmonton, etc.)

In all five cases I don't see any difference between moving a team to Toronto or Hamilton. I just don't think people are attracted or not attracted to the game based on if they've heard of the city.

However, I do think overall another Toronto team makes the most sense. If the team agrees to rent out ACC, the Leafs could come out ahead and probably won't object. While a team in Hamilton (

or the old K-W discussions) would easily work, they would count on drawing a lot of people out of Toronto anyways (who can't get Leafs tickets), so at least this way you are right there. Leafs tickets are the most expensive in the league and still impossible to get. Just look at the population of the GTA, and this doesn't even include cities like K-W and London. Look at the population of places like Ottawa and Edmonton: Toronto could easily support 2 teams, easily. You could have 2 Toronto teams and a Hamilton team and all would be healthy: the size of the population combined with the popularity of hockey is something that exists in no other market.

That said, I'd prefer the team be in another Southern Ontario city, but I can see why the NHL would prefer Toronto.

I would like to see another team in the 'Peg before Toronto. While I believe that Toronto could support another team, it seems a little on the harsh side if your from Winnipeg or Quebec who have both lost a team. Why not let them take the teams that are not making any money < Nashville/Florida etc> Seems like a better option.

[roy_133]

I would like to see another team in the 'Peg before Toronto. While I believe that Toronto could support another team, it seems a little on the harsh side if your from Winnipeg or Quebec who have both lost a team. Why not let them take the teams that are not making any money < Nashville/Florida etc> Seems like a better option.

I don't see how the arena in Winnipeg can support an NHL team, or be tailored to support one since it's downtown with no where to expand.

Like I suppose when the dollar was on par with the greenback it was feasible with very expensive tickets, but the dollar is at like 80 cents now and the business sector in Winnipeg is no where near what it is in Toronto which is critical for private boxes. There's a very real possibility that Winnipeg could be a team collecting revenue sharing instead of paying into it, so I don't see why the board of governors would be enthusiastic about that.

I must admit I don't know much about le colisee, but it's not very big either and I strongly doubt they have the private boxes to make it work.

[Cenner_Hice]

My immediate reaction to this was "doesn't Toronto need at least one [decent] NHL hockey team before there's talk of it getting another?"

[Guest]

We should have a contest naming a new team for T.O. I've already heard a few beauties such as....

The Rake

Composters

Mulchers

In recognizing T.O.'s history as Hogtown i would even go with """The Bacon"""

[Innis_Mor]

I don't know the answer to that. It's not prairie flat, but it's certainly not mountainous either. For someone in Texas to know a detail like that, I'd be really impressed.

Sorry, I guess you had to be there. In context of the discussion, the query was whether Toronto was in the Rockies or not.

[77bourque77]

We should have a contest naming a new team for T.O. I've already heard a few beauties such as....

The Rake

Composters

Mulchers

In recognizing T.O.'s history as Hogtown i would even go with """The Bacon"""

the Toronto Back Bacons

[HabsFanInCalgary]

I don't see how the arena in Winnipeg can support an NHL team, or be tailored to support one since it's downtown with no where to expand.

Like I suppose when the dollar was on par with the greenback it was feasible with very expensive tickets, but the dollar is at like 80 cents now and the business sector in Winnipeg is no where near what it is in Toronto which is critical for private boxes. There's a very real possibility that Winnipeg could be a team collecting revenue sharing instead of paying into it, so I don't see why the board of governors would be enthusiastic about that.

I must admit I don't know much about le colisee, but it's not very big either and I strongly doubt they have the private boxes to make it work.

Agreed, but why put another team in Toronto? If anything the league should be looking to contract. Southern states teams are already barely recognized and w/ a depression starting up in the states, how long will they last? If the MLB and the NFL are already feeling it a bit, it should be noticeable in the NHL as well. There are about 5 or six teams that did not even average 15 thousand fans last year. Some of these teams are not even that bad < New Jersey>. If they are going to move a team I still say it should go to another place besides Toronto. The next boom will be Saskatchewan, why not Regina? And as someone already said, shouldn't Toronto be forced to have one good team before we give them another? Le Colisee hold about 16 thousand people, and as far as I remember, no, there are no boxes. A slight adjustment can be made I'm sure.

[Guest]

the Toronto Back Bacons

I Like this one too...The Weiners.

[kristinoem7]

Not sure if this would be a bad idea. It would give us more to laugh at.

I don't think the league is concerned about whether the team wins a championship or not. It's more about the revenue. I know for a fact I wouldn't want a second team here in Montreal as I don't need any distractions. My three choices for locating a new Canadian team would be Quebec City, Winnipeg and...Roberval.

[tmash]

I would like to see another team in the 'Peg before Toronto. While I believe that Toronto could support another team, it seems a little on the harsh side if your from Winnipeg or Quebec who have both lost a team. Why not let them take the teams that are not making any money < Nashville/Florida etc> Seems like a better option.

I would like to see a team in Winnipeg, but the population is very borderline to support it. The metro population is less than 3/4 that of Edmonton's. If the dollar is high, it probably could be profitable; with the dollar dropping, it wouldn't be as bad as some of the US teams, but it would hardly be a slam dunk. Toronto on the other hand has a (metro) population 5x that of Edmonton, yet has only a single team: they could easily support 1 or 2 more.

Sorry, I guess you had to be there. In context of the discussion, the query was whether Toronto was in the Rockies or not.

ah got it!

Agreed, but why put another team in Toronto? If anything the league should be looking to contract. Southern states teams are already barely recognized and w/ a depression starting up in the states, how long will they last? If the MLB and the NFL are already feeling it a bit, it should be noticeable in the NHL as well. There are about 5 or six teams that did not even average 15 thousand fans last year. Some of these teams are not even that bad < New Jersey>. If they are going to move a team I still say it should go to another place besides Toronto. The next boom will be Saskatchewan, why not Regina? And as someone already said, shouldn't Toronto be forced to have one good team before we give them another? Le Colisee hold about 16 thousand people, and as far as I remember, no, there are no boxes. A slight adjustment can be made I'm sure.

Contraction, while it would improve hockey, is not an option business wise. And there isn't a depression starting in the States, there is a recession, which will probably hurt the NHL, but not force it into too many financial pains (the bigger deal is the low Canadian dollar: while Canadian teams are profitable enough to accept the losses of it, they won't be as profitable: meaning lower league wide revenues and less money put into revenue sharing). How good the current team is has absolutely nothing to do with a future team. And why not Regina? Because their population is less than 200k.

We can make all the hockey arguments we want, fact is the NHL is a business, and I have yet to hear a single argument as to why a second southern Ontario team doesn't financially make sense. And this would be good news for us Habs fans in Southern Ontario: we could get to see the Habs cheaper and easier, either by seeing them face the new team, or against the Leafs (the increased competition may mean we could actually get tickets at face value).

[Innis_Mor]

I would like to see a team in Winnipeg, but the population is very borderline to support it. The metro population is less than 3/4 that of Edmonton's. If the dollar is high, it probably could be profitable; with the dollar dropping, it wouldn't be as bad as some of the US teams, but it would hardly be a slam dunk. Toronto on the other hand has a (metro) population 5x that of Edmonton, yet has only a single team: they could easily support 1 or 2 more.

ah got it!

Contraction, while it would improve hockey, is not an option business wise. And there isn't a depression starting in the States, there is a recession, which will probably hurt the NHL, but not force it into too many financial pains (the bigger deal is the low Canadian dollar: while Canadian teams are profitable enough to accept the losses of it, they won't be as profitable: meaning lower league wide revenues and less money put into revenue sharing). How good the current team is has absolutely nothing to do with a future team. And why not Regina? Because their population is less than 200k.

We can make all the hockey arguments we want, fact is the NHL is a business, and I have yet to hear a single argument as to why a second southern Ontario team doesn't financially make sense. And this would be good news for us Habs fans in Southern Ontario: we could get to see the Habs cheaper and easier, either by seeing them face the new team, or against the Leafs (the increased competition may mean we could actually get tickets at face value).

Yup. I travel to Buffalo to watch Hab games live, as it is (although, it would be more enjoyable to get into the ACC to see the Habs whup the Leafs! ).

[tmash]

Yup. I travel to Buffalo to watch Hab games live, as it is (although, it would be more enjoyable to get into the ACC to see the Habs whup the Leafs! ).

when I went it was the other way around, Habs decided to not show up despite the fact that Toronto was already out of the playoffs and Montreal was in a fight for first in the East.

Getting Leafs tickets is easy, you just need to be willing to stomach paying double the already league high ticket prices.

[Wayne-1]

as Graeme has noted, business-wise / financially-speaking, Toronto is a very attractive consideration... when financial times are good, relatively small centres like Winnipeg, Halifax or Regina probably could support a team, but what happens when the economy isn't good -- economies are cyclical, they'll go down eventually -- it seems unlikely that small markets will be able to support teams then... no matter how bad things get, there's always going to be substantially more money in the Toronto/southern Ontario market, so a second team there would certainly be a financially safer bet...

about the Hamilton-awareness issue, I think that's something we hear from US interests when putting teams in Canada comes up... I'm not saying I believe it, I'm just playing devil's advocate... I think the US owners are thinking, "we'll have the dedicated hockey fans, they'll come to support the home team no matter what, but unlike in Canada, their numbers won't fill the buildings... we need the 'casual' hockey/sports fan as well... it's harder to draw those marginal fans if the opponents are from someplace they've never heard of, it doesn't help give the impression of it being a big-league sports event but rather a niche sport that Americans really don't care about"... but the casual sports fan will have heard of Toronto because of the Raptors and the Jays...

as for all the Leafs joking/bashing, whatever, it's completely irrelevant to the serious discussion... honestly, the NHL really doesn't care how a team does on the ice, as long as it makes money... they will only care about how a team does on the ice if it will affect revenue, and that's not an issue with the Leafs...

[Wayne-1]

Getting Leafs tickets is easy, you just need to be willing to stomach paying double the already league high ticket prices.

I'm wondering if that's changed a bit now... earlier this summer MLSE's VP in charge of tickets for everything resigned because of serious 'irregularities' in his department, there was even talk of bringing in the police -- the obvious presumption is that they were taking kickbacks from ticket brokers/scalpers...

I never heard how this was resolved...

[tmash]

as Graeme has noted, business-wise / financially-speaking, Toronto is a very attractive consideration... when financial times are good, relatively small centres like Winnipeg, Halifax or Regina probably could support a team, but what happens when the economy isn't good -- economies are cyclical, they'll go down eventually -- it seems unlikely that small markets will be able to support teams then... no matter how bad things get, there's always going to be substantially more money in the Toronto/southern Ontario market, so a second team there would certainly be a financially safer bet...

Winnipeg and Quebec City are really the only two cities outside of Southern Ontario that don't already have a team that could support one when times are good. Halifax and Regina are just way too small - under half a million people. They are also fairly isolated. In Southern Ontario you could throw a team in London or K-W and it would do fairly well because it would draw from the GTA, but this isn't true away from southern Ontario.

about the Hamilton-awareness issue, I think that's something we hear from US interests when putting teams in Canada comes up... I'm not saying I believe it, I'm just playing devil's advocate... I think the US owners are thinking, "we'll have the dedicated hockey fans, they'll come to support the home team no matter what, but unlike in Canada, their numbers won't fill the buildings... we need the 'casual' hockey/sports fan as well... it's harder to draw those marginal fans if the opponents are from someplace they've never heard of, it doesn't help give the impression of it being a big-league sports event but rather a niche sport that Americans really don't care about"... but the casual sports fan will have heard of Toronto because of the Raptors and the Jays...

I understand the argument against more Canadian teams in general, but you originally used it in Toronto vs Hamilton. I get that facing other American teams is probably better for other American teams (much like all-Canadian matchups are big draws here). But I just don't see how there'd be any difference facing the Toronto Predators or Hamilton Predators.

as for all the Leafs joking/bashing, whatever, it's completely irrelevant to the serious discussion... honestly, the NHL really doesn't care how a team does on the ice, as long as it makes money... they will only care about how a team does on the ice if it will affect revenue, and that's not an issue with the Leafs...

Agreed. In fact, I'd say the fact that the team is so horrible and still is the most valuable team, has the highest ticket prices, and sells out every game shows they need another team. It's one thing to support a team when times are good, it's quite another to support that team when they are brutal like the Leafs.

I'm wondering if that's changed a bit now... earlier this summer MLSE's VP in charge of tickets for everything resigned because of serious 'irregularities' in his department, there was even talk of bringing in the police -- the obvious presumption is that they were taking kickbacks from ticket brokers/scalpers...

I never heard how this was resolved...

Ya I'm not sure what that was about, but I doubt it will affect much. Basically you just need to search on Ebay and there's plenty of tickets being "included" when you buy a hockey card. Really you can get tickets to any sporting event, it's all about how much you're willing to pay. Offer a million dollars: someone will give up their Superbowl ticket.

[bailey1]

the Toronto Back Bacons

[Guest]

Would that be the new teams answer to Cherry??

Getting back to seriousness....I doubt very much that anybody in here beleives a 2nd team in T.O. or the immediate area would NOT be a success. The potential number of hockey fans in the population almost guarantee a home run. As for talk of possibly getting to see a game cheaper because of it,,,,would be nice but i would need some convincing there.

[Wayne-1]

I understand the argument against more Canadian teams in general, but you originally used it in Toronto vs Hamilton. I get that facing other American teams is probably better for other American teams (much like all-Canadian matchups are big draws here). But I just don't see how there'd be any difference facing the Toronto Predators or Hamilton Predators.

I did? I was just explaining what the paragraph in the original post meant when it said 'the city would be a tough sell', not about it being a good local market, but what it meant to be a visiting team...

in any case, I do think there's a big difference in the mind of the casual US sports fan between Toronto and Hamilton... the Jays really put Toronto on the US sports map during '90s, thanks to the World Series, Skydome and Roger Clemens, and the Raptors were pretty visible for a while due to Vince Carter... you ask an American sports fan to name one Canadian city, it's going to be Toronto almost all the time because they still hear it on the local sportscast, so it's not totally foreign to them... but Hamilton is the back-of-beyond, I doubt even most Canadians outside of Ontario could tell you where the city is...

[tmash]

Would that be the new teams answer to Cherry??

Getting back to seriousness....I doubt very much that anybody in here beleives a 2nd team in T.O. or the immediate area would NOT be a success. The potential number of hockey fans in the population almost guarantee a home run. As for talk of possibly getting to see a game cheaper because of it,,,,would be nice but i would need some convincing there.

make sure you understand me correctly. I'm not suggesting the Leafs will lower their ticket prices. What I'm suggesting is that adding a second team will give the GTA twice as many NHL games a year. This should make it somewhat easier to get Leafs tickets and also put a squeeze on scalper and ticket agencies, so they will no longer be able to charge double face value on tickets. Right now, for Leafs tickets, unless you know someone or are very lucky when tickets go on sale, your only option is the secondary market, where prices get further inflated. The cheapest option of course will be the new team, but there should be a nice effect on the Leafs ticket secondary market

That's the good thing here, the Leafs won't lose much money from the competition, but the scalpers will. More middle class people will be able to attend an NHL game. And really it is a slap in the face to Canadians to only have 6 teams here. We are the ones propping the league up, a lot of the money we pay to NHL teams (through watching them on TV - advertising, going to games, buying merchandise, etc.) ends up propping up the US teams through revenue sharing. The league loves Canadians when it comes to taking our success to prop up American teams, when it comes to getting a young kid to make the face of the league, etc., but hate us when it comes to moving or expanding. Canadians who are so into hockey and give the league more money than anyone else are the same people who can't even get reasonably priced tickets to a hockey game, meanwhile "fans" who barely even care about hockey, can get tickets easily, for free in some cases, to see their team in the southern USA. The league really does take Canada for granted.

I did? I was just explaining what the paragraph in the original post meant when it said 'the city would be a tough sell', not about it being a good local market, but what it meant to be a visiting team...

Right, but that article was talking about Hamilton in the context as an alternative to a second Toronto team; not as a Canadian team in general.

in any case, I do think there's a big difference in the mind of the casual US sports fan between Toronto and Hamilton... the Jays really put Toronto on the US sports map during '90s, thanks to the World Series, Skydome and Roger Clemens, and the Raptors were pretty visible for a while due to Vince Carter... you ask an American sports fan to name one Canadian city, it's going to be Toronto almost all the time because they still hear it on the local sportscast, so it's not totally foreign to them... but Hamilton is the back-of-beyond, I doubt even most Canadians outside of Ontario could tell you where the city is...

Yes, I realize they know of Toronto (well Americans think its the capital), but I still don't see knowing of it being able to draw fans in at all.

[Guest]

make sure you understand me correctly. I'm not suggesting the Leafs will lower their ticket prices. What I'm suggesting is that adding a second team will give the GTA twice as many NHL games a year. This should make it somewhat easier to get Leafs tickets and also put a squeeze on scalper and ticket agencies, so they will no longer be able to charge double face value on tickets. Right now, for Leafs tickets, unless you know someone or are very lucky when tickets go on sale, your only option is the secondary market, where prices get further inflated. The cheapest option of course will be the new team, but there should be a nice effect on the Leafs ticket secondary market

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll admit that adding another 20 some odd thousand tickets to the area SHOULD increase our chances of getting some face value tickets. I beleive the waiting list for seasons tickets to Leaf games is something like a mile long, and when Hamilton offered up a shot at seasons tickets to a fathom team, they sold out ( deposits) within days. Makes me somewhat skeptical as to how many actual tickets would be available to the average Joe who can only afford to go to a couple games a year.

[Wayne-1]

Right, but that article was talking about Hamilton in the context as an alternative to a second Toronto team; not as a Canadian team in general.

ah, I was focusing on just that last paragraph and was referring to Hamilton in general only... sorry for the confusion...

I'll admit that adding another 20 some odd thousand tickets to the area SHOULD increase our chances of getting some face value tickets. I beleive the waiting list for seasons tickets to Leaf games is something like a mile long, and when Hamilton offered up a shot at seasons tickets to a fathom team, they sold out ( deposits) within days. Makes me somewhat skeptical as to how many actual tickets would be available to the average Joe who can only afford to go to a couple games a year.

don't hold me to this, but I think I've read in the past that the league requires teams to make a certain number of tickets available for each game to non-season ticket buyers... the reasoning is if you sell every seat to a season ticket buyer, like Montreal and Toronto could do, it kills the fan base because it's the same people attending every game...

now, I don't know if the league makes the teams sell those tickets in a certain way -- though I doubt it, since Montreal and Toronto would sell out by simply selling single game tickets, while other teams would need to 'package' games...