Hoyle00cdn Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't mean to break anyone's hearts here, but we won't get much for Halak simply because there's never been much of a trade market for goalies in the first place. A quick look at goalie trade history will demonstrate this.... 1) Huet traded for nothing more than a 2nd rounder. 2) After Hasek won the Vezina in 00/01 he was trades to Detroit for Kozlov and a 1st rounder. 3) Luongo was traded TO Florida for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha. 4) Luongo was traded FROM Florida for mental break down Todd Bertuzzi. It really is hard to find a goalie trade where the team trading the goalie comes out on top. Considering Halak hasn't really proven himself across the league yet, I'd say he's worth a 3rd line winger to most teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animerules1x3 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 The Hasek trade for Kozlov and a 1st is a decent trade. Vyacheslav Kozlov has always been underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't mean to break anyone's hearts here, but we won't get much for Halak simply because there's never been much of a trade market for goalies in the first place. A quick look at goalie trade history will demonstrate this.... 1) Huet traded for nothing more than a 2nd rounder. 2) After Hasek won the Vezina in 00/01 he was trades to Detroit for Kozlov and a 1st rounder. 3) Luongo was traded TO Florida for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha. 4) Luongo was traded FROM Florida for mental break down Todd Bertuzzi. It really is hard to find a goalie trade where the team trading the goalie comes out on top. considering Halak hasn't really proven himself across the league yet, I'd say he's worth a 3rd like winger to most teams. That Huet trade was not bad. And that was done when a glut of goalies was available. The Hasek trade was amazing. You have to keep in mind goalies are traded away from a position of weakness. A few years ago the Habs were offered Kovalchuk straight up for Theodore and we said no, because we needed Theodore at that point. There's few cases of two good goalies on a team. Vesa Toskala was traded from San Jose to Toronto (along with Mark Bell) and Toronto sent back... a 1st round draft pick (13th overall), a 2nd round draft pick, and a 4th round draft pick from the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyle00cdn Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 That Huet trade was not bad. And that was done when a glut of goalies was available. The Hasek trade was amazing. You have to keep in mind goalies are traded away from a position of weakness. A few years ago the Habs were offered Kovalchuk straight up for Theodore and we said no, because we needed Theodore at that point. There's few cases of two good goalies on a team. Vesa Toskala was traded from San Jose to Toronto (along with Mark Bell) and Toronto sent back... a 1st round draft pick (13th overall), a 2nd round draft pick, and a 4th round draft pick from the following year. Hasek was the Vezina winner when he was traded......the best in his position. If Thornton was traded for just a 1st rounder and kozlov, people would not think it was an awesome trade. I can't argue with the Toskala trade, other than the fact it was JFJ who pulled the trigger on it. My point is simply that Halak alone won't get us anywhere near the bargaining chips needed to bring another missing piece this team may need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hasek was the Vezina winner when he was traded......the best in his position. If Thornton was traded for just a 1st rounder and kozlov, people would not think it was an awesome trade. I can't argue with the Toskala trade, other than the fact it was JFJ who pulled the trigger on it. My point is simply that Halak alone won't get us anywhere near the bargaining chips needed to bring another missing piece this team may need. While I do agree with you that based on recent history, trading Halak on his own would likely only get us draft picks, our best option seems to be packaging him with other assets to get something better, something we really need and here's why... Christobal Huet: Traded to Washington by Montreal for Anaheim's 2nd round choice (previously acquired) in 2009 Entry Draft Dwayne Roloson: Traded to Edmonton by Minnesota for Edmonton's 1st round choice in 2006 Entry Draft and Edmonton's 3rd round choice in 2007 Entry Draft Tomas Vokoun: Traded to Florida by Nashville for Detroit's 2nd round choice in 2007 Entry Draft and Florida's 1st and 2nd round choices in 2008 Entry Draft Manny Fernandez: Traded to Boston by Minnesota for Petr Kalus and Boston's 4th round choice in 2009 Entry Draft Now if you include at least another player in the mix: Vesa Toskala: Traded to Toronto by San Jose with Mark Bell for Toronto's 1st and 2nd round choices in 2007 Entry Draft and Toronto's 4th round choice in 2009 Entry Draft Roberto Luongo: Traded to Vancouver by Florida with Lukas Krajicek and Florida's 6th round choice in 2006 Entry Draft for Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld Mike Smith: Traded to Tampa Bay by Dallas with Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and Dallas' 4th round choice in 2009 Entry Draft for Brad Richards and Johan Holmqvist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I have been pondering numbers and what is Philadelphia's roster would benefit us; this may be something of a long shot however what about this... To Philadelphia Jaroslav Halak: 0.775 Francis Bouillon: 1.875 Maxim Lapierre: 0.688 Possibility of a decent (read: Not a first) pick Salary total: 3.318 To Montreal Mike Knuble: 2.800 Antero Niittymaki: 1.225 Salary total: 4.025 This was my rough attempt, I had originally thought of taking Biron off Philadelphia's hands however unless they accept more salary dumping in the form of Dandenault and possibly Begin or if we were willing to waive a select number of players, it would not be feasible. Nevertheless for Philly they are given a decent defenseman who can hit like a tank, they solve their goalie qualm while ridding themselves of one of their ill performing goaltenders with Lapierre filling in their faceoff issues. Meanwhile we strength our offense with a good point productive player that at 235lbs, could certainly improve our physical game. Admittedly I am uncertain how well Knuble plays given I do not follow the Flyers and am basing this on points, so my apologizes if this is not as ideal as I anticipated. I did consider Hartnell however his salary is quite high; opting to give O'Byrne amounts to a similar problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I have been pondering numbers and what is Philadelphia's roster would benefit us; this may be something of a long shot however what about this... To Philadelphia Jaroslav Halak: 0.775 Francis Bouillon: 1.875 Maxim Lapierre: 0.688 Possibility of a decent (read: Not a first) pick Salary total: 3.318 To Montreal Mike Knuble: 2.800 Antero Niittymaki: 1.225 Salary total: 4.025 This was my rough attempt, I had originally thought of taking Biron off Philadelphia's hands however unless they accept more salary dumping in the form of Dandenault and possibly Begin or if we were willing to waive a select number of players, it would not be feasible. Nevertheless for Philly they are given a decent defenseman who can hit like a tank, they solve their goalie qualm while ridding themselves of one of their ill performing goaltenders with Lapierre filling in their faceoff issues. Meanwhile we strength our offense with a good point productive player that at 235lbs, could certainly improve our physical game. Admittedly I am uncertain how well Knuble plays given I do not follow the Flyers and am basing this on points, so my apologizes if this is not as ideal as I anticipated. I did consider Hartnell however his salary is quite high; opting to give O'Byrne amounts to a similar problem. Sorry, I have absolutely no interest in Knuble. If we're going to trade Halak, I want someone who will either have a bigger impact now, or a better impact long term. EDIT: This doesn't reflect on the fairness of the trade, just a matter of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracie12 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Sources tell the Ottawa Sun that Flyers GM Paul Holmgren has major concerns about Martin Biron and Antero Nittymaki and he's quietly shopping for a new goaltender. Although Blackhawks G Nikolai Khabibulin's name is always mentioned when teams are shopping for a netminders, the Flyers can't afford his $6.75M salary. The Sun reports the two options that team are strongly considering is Canadiens backup Jaroslav Halak and Thrashers prospect Ondrej Pavelec. The Flyers were expected to be contenders but sub-par performances by Biron (2-3-1. 3.95, .868 this year and career 172-146-25, 2.58, .910) and Nittymaki (0-0-2, 3.80, .881 this year and career 47-53, 3.09, .898) has had the franchise in a slight panic mode. I just dont buy it. I mean if you're philly, why would you think that a relatively unproven goalie like Halak or Pavelec would be the answer? Biron and Nittymaki are no slouches - sure they are slumping right now but that has alot more to do with Philly's pourous defense & a lot less to do with those two tenders. IMHO this is a fabricated story. Philly brass, say what you like about them, are not stupid. Moving Biron or Nittymaki in order to bring in one of the aforementioned youngsters makes little or no sense. If they could afford to fit an established guy like Khabibulin under the cap, then I can see it, but removing one question mark with another isnt the type of move that will do much good for them My 2 c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M Is Carter that good? (this is an actual question, not making a point). I know he's off to a solid start this season, but so far in 3 NHL seasons his best was 53 points (granted, Lecalvier always had low pont totals for awhile). If he is the real deal, then this actually looks like a trade that could work for both teams, although I don't know if it makes us any better in the present (it really depends if this is Carter's breakout year or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gracie12 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M Really cant see Philly letting carter go, but I would up the ante to: Higgins Gorges or Obyrne Halak Dandy or Boullion High Prospect or Pick For Carter & Niitumaki I would hate to lose Higgins, but I suspect Philly would want young compensation (as opposed to Lang) for Carter. Whoa Boy could you imagine? Pleks & Carter up the middle for the next 5-8 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animerules1x3 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M Not a chance in Hell Philadelphia agrees to that. Again, we'd be taking skill from them while only giving back quantity, and a centre who's set to be a free agent, that we only just acquired. This trade also doesn't do Montreal any good. Their centre line isn't a problem at all this year, and the next few years with Maxwell coming up as 3rd man. Halak has the potential to be more reliable than what Niitymaki is, and we'd be giving a D-man while it is our exact position of need. Now, we'd not only need a 4th D-man, but a 6th, too. You give away Gorges, and you get to see O'Byrne AND Brisebois on every game... I'd hope Carter would score one goal every two games or so, else, we'd be losing in the change, with all the turnovers these two will do together. Anyways, unrealistic trade from Phily's standpoint, and one step forward, two steps back for the Habs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSD Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 seriously the habs just need to keep halak hes a wicked back up and who they gona bring in to replace him? denis from ahl?? god no...and neither goalie from philly can cut it...why is montreal gona give up halak (who philly sees as a possible starter) for a goalie from philly (who they have no faith in)?? makes no sense...our team hasnt even see full potential playing together yet with all the injuries and now the flu going around...im sure the guys in the front office arent spazzing 8 games into the season...so the rumours need to chill a bit...hopefully philly takes khabi...huet gets his number one spot back and all these teams stop trying to shake up the chemistry of this team...ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumblebee_mtl Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Please... They need better defense, not better goalies... And this is from the Ottawa Sun? Looks to me like the Sens are in a more problematic goalie position than the Flyers. As well as more offense...defense... (Ya they won today, but I'm just saying). I wish every little trade tidbit from someone's "sources" would just leave the Habs out of it. Speculation, folks. C'est la vie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafs_rock_go_mccabe Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M That's a slick deal, JL. I agree with you that there is absolutely no point in talking to Philadelphia unless Carter is on the table for a reasonable price. I would also be inclined to keep Gorges, so hopefully Philadelphia would be more interested in the larger O'Byrne. Unless, well, they decide Richards is available... But we both know that isn't happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innis_Mor Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will also go on record in saying that I don't buy this story (oh wait, I've already done so)... Still, just for the heck of it, I wouldn't do anything with Philly that doesn't involve Jeff Carter. To Philadelphia: Robert Lang $4M Josh Gorges $1.1M or Ryan O'Byrne $0.942M Jaroslav Halak $0.775M Mathieu Dandenault $1.75M or Steve Begin $1.3M High draft pick or prospect like Valentenko, Chipchura,... To Montreal: Jeff Carter $5M Antero Niitymaki $1.225M Good job, JL. Even manage to free up some more cap space for Sundin's signing! (Koivu, Pleks, Sundin, Carter as the Hab centremen -- that's some wickedly sick stuff down the middle!! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony1234 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Although it ain't gonna happen, Carter would be perfect for this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Is Carter that good? (this is an actual question, not making a point). I know he's off to a solid start this season, but so far in 3 NHL seasons his best was 53 points (granted, Lecalvier always had low pont totals for awhile). If he is the real deal, then this actually looks like a trade that could work for both teams, although I don't know if it makes us any better in the present (it really depends if this is Carter's breakout year or not). Yes, Carter is THAT good in my opinion. Anyways, unrealistic trade from Phily's standpoint, and one step forward, two steps back for the Habs. Unrealistic from Philly's standpoint? Maybe. But definitely not a step back for the Habs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animerules1x3 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Yes, Carter is THAT good in my opinion. Unrealistic from Philly's standpoint? Maybe. But definitely not a step back for the Habs! It is a step back, since we don't need Carter to begin with, and then, we'd be widening our hole on defense by giving one of our D's. O'Byrne doesn't do the job right now, but he's a D, and in this trade, we don't even get one back. Even worse, if we give Gorges, who does the job. Not a good trade for us. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 It is a step back, since we don't need Carter to begin with, and then, we'd be widening our hole on defense by giving one of our D's. O'Byrne doesn't do the job right now, but he's a D, and in this trade, we don't even get one back. Even worse, if we give Gorges, who does the job. Not a good trade for us. At all. I happen to think that we do need Carter as he's under contract for many years. Maxwell? Please. How long before he's NHL ready and makes a contribution to this team? Carter's contract will be over by then! Lang is a UFA at the end of the season, so tell me that we don't need Carter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I happen to think that we do need Carter as he's under contract for many years. Maxwell? Please. How long before he's NHL ready and makes a contribution to this team? Carter's contract will be over by then! Lang is a UFA at the end of the season, so tell me that we don't need Carter. Long term you're probably correct, but short term I tend to agree with Ante. We get weaker in goal and on defense (the area we're looking to get stronger) for what is likely (short term) only a minor gain at center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl-1 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Long term you're probably correct, but short term I tend to agree with Ante. We get weaker in goal and on defense (the area we're looking to get stronger) for what is likely (short term) only a minor gain at center. I disagree that we get weaker. In goal, we're trading our backup (who doesn't play much, as good as he might become) and get Niittymaki, who's not too bad either. Yes we'd loose either Gorges or O'Byrne (not both) and free up some cap space, which means that we could address that elusive #4 d-man after Christmas if we want to. Latendresse - Koivu - Tanguay A.Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev Higgins - Carter - S.Kostitsyn Kostopoulos - Lapierre - Laraque - Begin (or Dandenault) Markov - Komisarek Hamrlik - Gorges (or O'Byrne) Bouillon - Brisebois - Weber Price Niittymaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animerules1x3 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I happen to think that we do need Carter as he's under contract for many years. Maxwell? Please. How long before he's NHL ready and makes a contribution to this team? Carter's contract will be over by then! Lang is a UFA at the end of the season, so tell me that we don't need Carter. Maxwell is closer to the NHL than you think. He certainly doesn't need 5 years to get there. It's not because a player from another team is good that we need him. A team is a complex balance of skill, determination, experience and salary cap now. I disagree that we get weaker. In goal, we're trading our backup (who doesn't play much, as good as he might become) and get Niittymaki, who's not too bad either. Yes we'd loose either Gorges or O'Byrne (not both) and free up some cap space, which means that we could address that elusive #4 d-man after Christmas if we want to. Latendresse - Koivu - Tanguay A.Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev Higgins - Carter - S.Kostitsyn Kostopoulos - Lapierre - Laraque - Begin (or Dandenault) Markov - Komisarek Hamrlik - Gorges (or O'Byrne) Bouillon - Brisebois - Weber Price Niittymaki We need this D-man now... unlike a centre. We are multiplying the defensive mistakes and our goal output is superior to last season's excellent output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamesgal1 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 It is a step back, since we don't need Carter to begin with, and then, we'd be widening our hole on defense by giving one of our D's. O'Byrne doesn't do the job right now, but he's a D, and in this trade, we don't even get one back. Even worse, if we give Gorges, who does the job. Not a good trade for us. At all. I don't think it is a step back at all...you get a tremendous young center on Carter...put him on a free wheeling team, like the habs...would be tanguay times five You give up Lang and Halak... done deal...and spare parts Obryne or Georges -- Obryne has moments but I would sooner lose him than Gosh George...Gosh George is just the ultimate steady man back their. When in a trade and you have the chance get hands down the best player in the tradeyou win. And Carter is the best player. If Philly fell for that ... i would smile my way to the bank. We can always add a deeman for number four...were not in any big rush were winning with what we have...and I am sure Breeseby can step in until Gainey finds the right deal. Also don't forget Weber was one of the last to be sent down...he could probably come in if there is an injury and fill in for 10 or 12 minutes a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flames4eva Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I don't think it is a step back at all...you get a tremendous young center on Carter...put him on a free wheeling team, like the habs...would be tanguay times five You give up Lang and Halak... done deal...and spare parts Obryne or Georges -- Obryne has moments but I would sooner lose him than Gosh George...Gosh George is just the ultimate steady man back their. When in a trade and you have the chance get hands down the best player in the tradeyou win. And Carter is the best player. If Philly fell for that ... i would smile my way to the bank. We can always add a deeman for number four...were not in any big rush were winning with what we have...and I am sure Breeseby can step in until Gainey finds the right deal. Also don't forget Weber was one of the last to be sent down...he could probably come in if there is an injury and fill in for 10 or 12 minutes a game. No way that Philly trade Carter... It has been speculated that Joffrey Lupul may be an option... http://www.hockeyleaks.com/index.php?page=rumors No the best source... I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.