Report: Kovalchuk To Montreal Or Toronto?

[animerules1x3]

Did the same Gainey panic when he traded for Joe Nieuwendyk, sacrificing a young Jarome Iginla? Sometimes, it's not a move of panic, but more one to push your team over the edge in order to give them the best chance to win the ultimate prize, the Stanley Cup.

He didn't panic. He felt he needed 'dyk, and he gave up on a (then possible) Top 10 player to get it. His move paid off. I'm glad for him. Until he tries the same trick with the Habs, I won't consider this move as meaningful in our situation. Not the same team, not the same NHL, not the same conference.

[jl-1]

He didn't panic. He felt he needed 'dyk, and he gave up on a (then possible) Top 10 player to get it. His move paid off. I'm glad for him. Until he tries the same trick with the Habs, I won't consider this move as meaningful in our situation. Not the same team, not the same NHL, not the same conference.

Same GM and same goal though, so it wouldn't be surprising to see a similar move. Yes, some fans will feel that it's overpaying, until we bring the Cup home that is.

[animerules1x3]

Panic? I am in no way in any sort of panic

But you implied that if we don't do a dramatic trade to get a big name, we would end up without a cup over six years. This means that you feel we desperately need to acquire a big name, that you don't have faith in the team in place.

Patience is something this team has been for over a decade and finally when in a position of strength the recommendation is... still "be patient."

Patience brought us to this position of strength.

Making a pitch for someone like Kovalchuk or Bouwmeester is not going to break our franchise, condemning the Habs to mediocrity as you seem to perceive.

It wouldn't break the franchise, but it would hinder it's chances for the immediate next years following his departure from the Habs, or, the departure of someone else we couldn't re-sign because of his presence (plus the numerous guys we would've given for him)

Say we lose the Kostitsyn brother in a shocking trade for Kovalchuk; even playing the devil's advocate and we bow out of the playoffs. We are not suddenly a struggling franchise on the verge of a rebuild.

Then again, if we don't pull out such a shocker, we would be a team in rebuilding mode according to one of your posts. It doesn't make more sense We are quite far from being a struggling franchise on the verge a rebuild right now. We have our tools, and Gainey has the plan to make the shed. There's one thing left to do : build that shed, and the nails shall be the wins. Then, maybe we can spare for a stronger lock (a 4th D), but we don't need shiny paint (a sniper, a 2nd D).

Thus to compare a single to trade to five years of idiocy the Maple Leafs underwent is ludicrous.

I do not compare a single trade to the whole five years of idiocy of the Maple Leafs, I said that this kind of trade is what caused the five years of idiocy of the Leafs.

Furthermore Detroit have built their team similar in that they only used the draft however do you honestly believe we compare with Detroit?

Yes, we compare to them. It is about time we stop with our complex of inferiority. Our team is amply capable to deal with the big deers of this league. They have the talent. They only need the will.

They signed a wait for it... all star, one who rejected us and already had Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Rafalski, Lidstrom and so forth. They do not trade because they have absolutely no reason to.

So are we. In no need to trade for such a player, anymore (we already got Tanguay and Lang) We do not need to trade for a goalscorer when we score 4 goals on a regular basis. Scoring is not a concern for our team.

a trade for say Bouwmeester, we know exactly what we are receiving.

Yes a 2nd D, to fill a 4th D hole. I never said that Bouwmeester isn't good, or wouldn't be an useful addition, but he doesn't fit the bill we need to fix. Our top 3 is alright, what we miss is a good 4th. Bouwmeester is all good and all, but too costly for our need. Why pay more, to then reduce a guys icetime from 25 to 20 ? Why not get a 20mins guy who would cost half as much to acquire ?

Now, if you want to continue to believe that our team is weak, and would get swiped by Detroit's invincible team in 4, then do so. I have chosen not to let the mid-to-end 90's mentality blinds me. We can win now, and we would greatly improve our chances with a capable 4th D now. We would just be getting greedy by going for the big names often mentionned in trade rumours on this forum. And in a salary cap era, greed is costly.

[animerules1x3]

Besides, I find the Red Wings a very good comparison with the Habs.

1) Both teams have two smallish centres as num 1 and num 2.

2) Both teams can count of solid goalscoring (they added Hossa, we added Tanguay and Lang to a team that actually scored 5 more goals than the Wings)

3) The Red Wings have the edge on defense (that's why we need a better 4th in the end)

4) The Habs have better goaltending. Price is already more consistent than Osgood. With the experience he acquired in last year's playoffs, he should bring us a better game)

5) Both teams were actually built on good drafting.

6) Both teams are going to have cap problems soon, thus emphasising the need for good drafting.

7) Both teams are considered serious candidates for the spring contest.

I, for one, don't believe in the thought that this team is a 7M player away from success.

[animerules1x3]

Same GM and same goal though, so it wouldn't be surprising to see a similar move. Yes, some fans will feel that it's overpaying, until we bring the Cup home that is.

Who's to say that we are not stronger than the pre-'dyk Stars ?

And when you look at it, BG may already have made his flashy move, by handing away two potential stars (with TT draft expertise that is) in his 1st and 2nd (2009 was it?) to acquire Tanguay. And he did it after, with Lang.

It is not as if BG hadn't already used the trade market to improve on his team for this season.

But Habs fans being what they are, we are addicted to our team and need it to be active on the trade market because... well... with this screwed-up schedule, we are never playing !

No, seriously, too much is not any more good than not enough.

[fourtrax]

Did the same Gainey panic when he traded for Joe Nieuwendyk, sacrificing a young Jarome Iginla? Sometimes, it's not a move of panic, but more one to push your team over the edge in order to give them the best chance to win the ultimate prize, the Stanley Cup.

Exactly, and lest we forget, Gainey was prepared to give up multiple assets for Hossa at last year's trade deadline until the Penguins came in with the drunken-sailor option. People keep acting like trading for someone to put your team over the top is this crazy venture that will gut our system for years to come, but it can't be that crazy, or Gainey wouldn't have put those offers in play in the first place.

[animerules1x3]

Exactly, and lest we forget, Gainey was prepared to give up multiple assets for Hossa at last year's trade deadline until the Penguins came in with the drunken-sailor option. People keep acting like trading for someone to put your team over the top is this crazy venture that will gut our system for years to come, but it can't be that crazy, or Gainey wouldn't have put those offers in play in the first place.

On the other hand, Gainey has been smart to remove himself from the Hossa betting when the leading offer became too high. I believe he will do so again, and that he wouln't take part in an offer like those suggested for Bouwmeester and Gaborik for the exact same reason. He has set a limit to what he's willing to throw away. It is not crezy to want to be over the top, what is, it to be prepared to overpay to achieve this. And Gainey wasn't last year, unlike Shero.

I'm confident he won't do a Shero-like offer for Bouwmeester when he can get other guys for a much-lower price and still improve his team.

[hockey_gal89]

Same GM and same goal though, so it wouldn't be surprising to see a similar move. Yes, some fans will feel that it's overpaying, until we bring the Cup home that is.

OK-I'm sorry but comparing Ilya Kovalchuk to Joe Niewendyk is like comparing A Yugo to a Cadillac.

First of all Joe Niewendyk already had a cup from '89 on his resume...Kovalchuk does not...Niewendyk was a proven leader Kovalchuk is not.

The bottom line is NONE of the guys mentioned in trades (Gaborik or Kovalchuk) offer the same package of intangables as Niewendyk did when BG pulled the trigger on that trade and neither of these guys are worth giving up an Iginla calibre prospect or the closest thing we have to it.

I'd much rather make a pitch for Shanahan than Kovalchuk...At least Shanny has the cups and the experience of playing for a winner.

[jl-1]

Besides, I find the Red Wings a very good comparison with the Habs.

1) Both teams have two smallish centres as num 1 and num 2.

2) Both teams can count of solid goalscoring (they added Hossa, we added Tanguay and Lang to a team that actually scored 5 more goals than the Wings)

3) The Red Wings have the edge on defense (that's why we need a better 4th in the end)

4) The Habs have better goaltending. Price is already more consistent than Osgood. With the experience he acquired in last year's playoffs, he should bring us a better game)

5) Both teams were actually built on good drafting.

6) Both teams are going to have cap problems soon, thus emphasising the need for good drafting.

7) Both teams are considered serious candidates for the spring contest.

I, for one, don't believe in the thought that this team is a 7M player away from success.

Lidstrom $7.45M cap hit

Hossa $7.45M cap hit

Datsyuk $6.7M cap hit

Rafalski $6.0M cap hit

Zetterberg is a UFA next year and will fetch that kind of money easily.

So why again is it impossible for us to grab one $7 million man?

OK-I'm sorry but comparing Ilya Kovalchuk to Joe Niewendyk is like comparing A Yugo to a Cadillac.

First of all Joe Niewendyk already had a cup from '89 on his resume...Kovalchuk does not...Niewendyk was a proven leader Kovalchuk is not.

The bottom line is NONE of the guys mentioned in trades (Gaborik or Kovalchuk) offer the same package of intangables as Niewendyk did when BG pulled the trigger on that trade and neither of these guys are worth giving up an Iginla calibre prospect or the closest thing we have to it.

I'd much rather make a pitch for Shanahan than Kovalchuk...At least Shanny has the cups and the experience of playing for a winner.

I'd take Kovalchuk in a heartbeat, mostly due to his age and what he's accomplished.

I find ironic to see people put Kovalchuk down and in the same breath, will praise Kovalev, when both players have a similar reputation of selfishness, but yet Kovalchuk has been steady as a clock in his young career, which Kovalev has never been.

Ad for Shanahan, as I've stated in the other thread, two years ago I would have taken him. Today? No way. I prefer giving that ice time to Latendresse and/or Sergei.

[hockey_gal89]

Lidstrom $7.45M cap hit

Hossa $7.45M cap hit

Datsyuk $6.7M cap hit

Rafalski $6.0M cap hit

Zetterberg is a UFA next year and will fetch that kind of money easily.

So why again is it impossible for us to grab one $7 million man?

I'd take Kovalchuk in a heartbeat, mostly due to his age and what he's accomplished.

I find ironic to see people put Kovalchuk down and in the same breath, will praise Kovalev, when both players have a similar reputation of selfishness, but yet Kovalchuk has been steady as a clock in his young career, which Kovalev has never been.

Ad for Shanahan, as I've stated in the other thread, two years ago I would have taken him. Today? No way. I prefer giving that ice time to Latendresse and/or Sergei.

I'm not putting down Kovalchuk or Gaborik, I'm simply saying that they wouldn't be worth what we'd have to give up for them...I'd love to see Kovalchuk in a Habs uniform, but it's unrealistic and we'd probably have to cut out a huge amount of the team's core for one player...There are simpler solutions and better fits out there for this team...Besides, offense is the least of this teams' worries.

[animerules1x3]

Lidstrom $7.45M cap hit

Hossa $7.45M cap hit

Datsyuk $6.7M cap hit

Rafalski $6.0M cap hit

Zetterberg is a UFA next year and will fetch that kind of money easily.

So why again is it impossible for us to grab one $7 million man?

It isn't impossible, in a pro-rated salary situation. But it is useless. It is 100% certain that we'd overpay, thus creating holes elsewhere.

You can get another 7M guy, but you WILL have to cut in your depth. Depth is what made us strong. Lack of depth is what makes the Senators bad (plus bad goaltending). Going after superstars is only one strategy amongst others.

And you said it, Zetterberg will get this money, and even more. Hossa will then be gone.

Our situation is already the same. Kovalev or Tanguay will get this money. The other one will be gone.

We are already in the same situation than the Red Wings. They added Hossa, we added Tanguay. It is not like if we were one major move behind them.

But hey, fans in Montreal have an unquenchable thirst for star players. They are never happy with what they have, and they like to daydream about every single one of the stars that come into the rumour mill.

We do not need another marquee player because the Wings could add one, because we, too, did it.

I'm not putting down Kovalchuk or Gaborik, I'm simply saying that they wouldn't be worth what we'd have to give up for them...I'd love to see Kovalchuk in a Habs uniform, but it's unrealistic and we'd probably have to cut out a huge amount of the team's core for one player...There are simpler solutions and better fits out there for this team...Besides, offense is the least of this teams' worries.

This.

[jl-1]

But hey, fans in Montreal have an unquenchable thirst for star players. They are never happy with what they have, and they like to daydream about every single one of the stars that come into the rumour mill.

We have a star player in net and another one on defense. You're misreading the fans by the way. It's not a need for star players that pushes us in looking for a sniper, it's our lack of finish around the net when the going gets tough, in the playoffs, facing top notch teams.

[animerules1x3]

We have a star player in net and another one on defense. You're misreading the fans by the way. It's not a need for star players that pushes us in looking for a sniper, it's our lack of finish around the net when the going gets tough, in the playoffs, facing top notch teams.

That's only your perception. I already said it before, I do not agree with you that the main reason for our elimination to the Flyers was our lack of opportunism.

Biron played better than Price and Umberger went out of nowhere to kill us repeatedly.

But as we will never agree on that, we will never agree on the sniper thing.

We have sufficient goalscoring. When you watch the games properly, you see that this team knows how to score, but have trouble defending as soon as O'Byrne or Brisebois is one the ice in his zone.

Would we have trouble scoring 3 goals per game, I would agree with you to overpay to get Kovalchuk, but we are in the 3.7 to 4 range, which is enough to not overpay.

Besides, we have a superstar on defense, a rising superstar in nets, but we also have several stars on the forward front.

[jl-1]

That's only your perception. I already said it before, I do not agree with you that the main reason for our elimination to the Flyers was our lack of opportunism.

Biron played better than Price and Umberger went out of nowhere to kill us repeatedly.

But as we will never agree on that, we will never agree on the sniper thing.

We have sufficient goalscoring. When you watch the games properly, you see that this team knows how to score, but have trouble defending as soon as O'Byrne or Brisebois is one the ice in his zone.

Would we have trouble scoring 3 goals per game, I would agree with you to overpay to get Kovalchuk, but we are in the 3.7 to 4 range, which is enough to not overpay.

Besides, we have a superstar on defense, a rising superstar in nets, but we also have several stars on the forward front.

That's only your perception. We made Biron look like a god in shooting at him instead of putting the puck in the open nets, or we hit the post or simply missed the net, things a sniper don't do.

[HabsAlways]

And you said it, Zetterberg will get this money, and even more. Hossa will then be gone.

Our situation is already the same. Kovalev or Tanguay will get this money. The other one will be gone.

This.

I strongly believe you'll see both in a Habs uniform for a few more years.

[animerules1x3]

That's only your perception. We made Biron look like a god in shooting at him instead of putting the puck in the open nets, or we hit the post or simply missed the net, things a sniper don't do.

Biron never looked like a god. But he was solid. Every save a goalie would do could be described as : the shooter shot on him. When Price makes a good save, he has good positioning, when Biron makes one, we made him look good...

Yeah, Kovalchuk scores on his every shot. He never hits posts. He never shoots wide. He doesn't do that.

And we don't have high-percentage shooters this year. We don't have Kovalev, Koivu and Tanguay who are doing better than Kovalchuk so far. We shouldn't put any faith in them, as they are bad players since they are already ours.

I strongly believe you'll see both in a Habs uniform for a few more years.

Then, Koivu won't be. Or Komisarek. Or Markov.

We won't have the money to keep them all. And of all the high-salary players, either Tanguay or Kovalev are the more likely to leave.

[Bourne]

But you implied that if we don't do a dramatic trade to get a big name, we would end up without a cup over six years. This means that you feel we desperately need to acquire a big name, that you don't have faith in the team in place.

I was making an assumption based upon your claim we would be a great team for six years, yet no match of a victory season. Admittedly I was playing the devil’s advocate as you certainly are correct, it is a possibility for us to bring home Lord Stanley. I must also admit my faith in this team is questionable given their most recent performances..

Patience brought us to this position of strength.

Indeed however we were not given an option. Few players wished to sign with Montreal and even fewer GMs were knocking on our door. We had to be patient because there was no other alternative. It was fortunate our patience eventually worked for the better. This does not mean we should continue to wait; not when we have an opportunity for the gold.

It wouldn't break the franchise, but it would hinder it's chances for the immediate next years following his departure from the Habs, or, the departure of someone else we couldn't re-sign because of his presence (plus the numerous guys we would've given for him)

Is this not contradictory to your earlier claim our rookies will replace those who leave? Kovalchuk is guaranteed for another season and worst case scenario we lose one of Bouwmeester or Komisarek (it is entirely possible to ink both) then can we not pluck pieces from our eager youth whom desire the opportunity to run with the elite? Thus far trade proposals have included most minor players, Higgins and now the Kostitsyns (who would give Kovalchuk)

Then again, if we don't pull out such a shocker, we would be a team in rebuilding mode according to one of your posts. It doesn't make more sense We are quite far from being a struggling franchise on the verge a rebuild right now. We have our tools, and Gainey has the plan to make the shed. There's one thing left to do : build that shed, and the nails shall be the wins. Then, maybe we can spare for a stronger lock (a 4th D), but we don't need shiny paint (a sniper, a 2nd D).

If that was the impression received, it is mistaken. I am not claiming we would be in a rebuilding cycle however to claim we have all the necessary tools is debatable given our team has in actuality played average at best thus far in the season.

I do not compare a single trade to the whole five years of idiocy of the Maple Leafs, I said that this kind of trade is what caused the five years of idiocy of the Leafs.

So a trade for Bouwmeester or Kovalchuk is damn this franchise to fiery blue hell decorated by the Maple Leafs? Imagine that, franchise players are franchise damning; quite amusing irony.

Yes, we compare to them. It is about time we stop with our complex of inferiority. Our team is amply capable to deal with the big deers of this league. They have the talent. They only need the will.

We compare in style of management however our players do not. They have two elite superstars, something Montreal has yearned to acquire for over a decade. Kovalev did have an impressive season last year yet… was our only 80+ point player.

So are we. In no need to trade for such a player, anymore (we already got Tanguay and Lang) We do not need to trade for a goalscorer when we score 4 goals on a regular basis. Scoring is not a concern for our team.

This is debatable given that replacing say… Kovalev with Kovalchuk would be phenomenal due principally to age. The Kostitsyns? Well that is another argument entirely.

Yes a 2nd D, to fill a 4th D hole. I never said that Bouwmeester isn't good, or wouldn't be an useful addition, but he doesn't fit the bill we need to fix. Our top 3 is alright, what we miss is a good 4th. Bouwmeester is all good and all, but too costly for our need. Why pay more, to then reduce a guys icetime from 25 to 20 ? Why not get a 20mins guy who would cost half as much to acquire ?

Our top three are “alright”? That does not exactly inspire confidence on their abilities. Who is to say Bouwmeester would not log 25-30 minutes? We could roll two dominate defensive lines instead of three good ones. Furthermore Bouwmeester could perform even better because he is no longer the backbone of the team.

Now, if you want to continue to believe that our team is weak, and would get swiped by Detroit's invincible team in 4, then do so. I have chosen not to let the mid-to-end 90's mentality blinds me. We can win now, and we would greatly improve our chances with a capable 4th D now. We would just be getting greedy by going for the big names often mentionned in trade rumours on this forum. And in a salary cap era, greed is costly.

I do not believe our team will be swept in four, nor have I implied such. I do however believe we are beginning to overestimate the productivity of the team and their ability to maintain greatness against the talented rosters. We have struggled thus far will minor teams and nearly lost to Boston, Minnesota, Carolina and Long Island. We are not being greedy we are going for a risk reward scenario for our centennial season. No risk, no reward.

[jordanjordan]

i really dont think they're moving kovalchuk unless they are getting a VERY sweet offer.

[hockey_gal89]

I do not believe our team will be swept in four, nor have I implied such. I do however believe we are beginning to overestimate the productivity of the team and their ability to maintain greatness against the talented rosters. We have struggled thus far will minor teams and nearly lost to Boston, Minnesota, Carolina and Long Island. We are not being greedy we are going for a risk reward scenario for our centennial season. No risk, no reward.

If going 8-1-1 is struggling, success must be freaking scary.

[tony1234]

I'm telling you all, the opportunity to win a cup does not come around very often.

If Bob feels there is a kovalchuck or gaborik out there that can help us get it this season, and he can get him for the right price he will do it.

You or I may not think he needs to, but Bob will do what is best.

[animerules1x3]

Is this not contradictory to your earlier claim our rookies will replace those who leave? Kovalchuk is guaranteed for another season and worst case scenario we lose one of Bouwmeester or Komisarek (it is entirely possible to ink both) then can we not pluck pieces from our eager youth whom desire the opportunity to run with the elite? Thus far trade proposals have included most minor players, Higgins and now the Kostitsyns (who would give Kovalchuk)

Not really, I feel like we shouldn't create many holes to be filled with rookies. When you aim for the cup, you don't groom many rookies every year, you need experience to go far.

If that was the impression received, it is mistaken. I am not claiming we would be in a rebuilding cycle however to claim we have all the necessary tools is debatable given our team has in actuality played average at best thus far in the season.

Well, the glass is either half-full or half-empty. We went 8-1-1 while not playing well. Sure, we didn't play other top-teams, but I believe the Habs players won't take such opponents as lightly as they did the Islanders. They struggled against lousy teams because they didn't work to start the games.

So a trade for Bouwmeester or Kovalchuk is damn this franchise to fiery blue hell decorated by the Maple Leafs? Imagine that, franchise players are franchise damning; quite amusing irony.

It's not damning us, but it is taking a step in the bad path, the Leafs' way.

We compare in style of management however our players do not. They have two elite superstars, something Montreal has yearned to acquire for over a decade. Kovalev did have an impressive season last year yet… was our only 80+ point player.

Complex of inferiority... the Red Wings have weaknesses, namely in nets. And while they have two elite superstars, we have as good an offense as them.

While it would be '' phenomenal '' to replace Kovalev with Kovalchuk due to the players' ages, Kovalev is already ours, whereas Kovalchuk's astronomical cost would offset some of his value.

Who is to say Bouwmeester would not log 25-30 minutes? We could roll two dominate defensive lines instead of three good ones. Furthermore Bouwmeester could perform even better because he is no longer the backbone of the team.

Carbonneau is rolling four offensive lines, and three defensive lines. Go see at our current D's icetime. Markov isn't even always playing 25 minutes. It is not Carbonneau's philosophy to dress players not to play them. He tries to keep all of his players sharp and healthy by not abusing of some and sitting others. Jaybo WOULDN'T play 25 minutes in Montreal. 100% sure.

We are not being greedy we are going for a risk reward scenario for our centennial season. No risk, no reward.

We already made significant additions for the centenial in Tanguay and Lang. BG wasn't afraid to do sacrifices. But there are acceptable losses, and managerial suicides.

I'm telling you all, the opportunity to win a cup does not come around very often.

If Bob feels there is a kovalchuck or gaborik out there that can help us get it this season, and he can get him for the right price he will do it.

You or I may not think he needs to, but Bob will do what is best.

The right price won't present itself. You know that. Why would Waddell give away Kovalchuk without milking the more he can ?

[tony1234]

The right price won't present itself. You know that. Why would Waddell give away Kovalchuk without milking the more he can ?

But the thing is, your idea of the right price and Bob's idea of the right price may be in two totally different ballparks !!!

I can't say a deal is going to happen, but I would not count it out either.

[Mots-Sundin]

That's only your perception. We made Biron look like a god in shooting at him instead of putting the puck in the open nets, or we hit the post or simply missed the net, things a sniper don't do.

Philadelphia won on the physical aspect, they won one on one battles. The canadiens we're looking for the perfect play so they don't have to grind and when they had their chances, they wanted to get rid of the puck so quickly they missed opportunities they would'nt had missed usually. And Biron was way better than Price. Plekanec was the only one to admit it, but he wasn't the only one to play like a girl...

[BigBADHabs]

I think BG already made all the moves he was going to do, maybe an add on at the trade deadline a big maybe. If he was going to get Kovlachuk why not just go after Sundin where you don't have to loose a lot of the core for one player.

I don't think anything is going to happen and frankly I'm not too upset about cause I think we do have a great team this year

Philadelphia won on the physical aspect, they won one on one battles. The canadiens we're looking for the perfect play so they don't have to grind and when they had their chances, they wanted to get rid of the puck so quickly they missed opportunities they would'nt had missed usually. And Biron was way better than Price. Plekanec was the only one to admit it, but he wasn't the only one to play like a girl...

agreed Game 5 we had a huge lead and had a chance to take it to game 6 and then Price and most of the defence fell apart

[St-Kitts-hab]

Yes, I agree that Kovalchuk is a prolific goal scorer but he is lazy defensively, and looks to me like he may be a cancer in the dressing room. We need an aggressive power forward and another puck moving defenseman.