Jay Bouwmeester

[animerules1x3]

That's not fixing, that's sabotage. Underutilizing? What are you talking about? Is Markov underutilized? Is Hamrlik underutilized? What about Komisarek? He'd be paired with Hamrlik so how would he be underutilized? As for overpaying, been there, done that, you think it is, I say it's not.

Bouwmeester is used to player at least 25 mins a game, and often more than that. We don't have 25 minutes to allocate our future new addition. Using him 18-20 minutes would be underutilizing him. And Carbo won't play the top 4 25 minutes each. He's already not doing that, as only Markov is reaching this plateau on a constant basis.

Anaheim has Pronger, Niedermayer, and Beauchemin, and none of them is underutilized.

Detroit doesn't seem to have any problem using Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall properly.

By underutilizing, I mean playing said player to less than he could and should be playing. Carbo won't play the new guy 25 minutes, as he could already play d-man other than Markov 25 minutes would he so desire, but he does not.

And Bouwmeester will command the trading price of a d-man who will be used to his best potential. And that's not 20 minutes. It 25-28. So, underutilized, he would be. And overpriced.

Let's just find a real number 4, to do a number 4 duty, and be paid number 4 assets. This way, we'll stay better in other areas, and still fix our problem on D.

[jl-1]

After watching this game tonight, Jaybo would be a welcome addition to this team, especially on the powerplay. Besides Markov, the other defensemen struggle to get the puck out of our zone with a crisp outlet pass. But hey, what do I know.

Anaheim has Pronger, Niedermayer, and Beauchemin, and none of them is underutilized.

Detroit doesn't seem to have any problem using Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall properly.

The only real effect may be our third pairing plays less, which is fine.

A defense of:

Markov-Komi

JayBo-Hamrlik

Gorges-Bouillion

spares: Brisebois, Dandenault

says "cup" to me.

This.

Bouwmeester is used to player at least 25 mins a game, and often more than that. We don't have 25 minutes to allocate our future new addition. Using him 18-20 minutes would be underutilizing him. And Carbo won't play the top 4 25 minutes each. He's already not doing that, as only Markov is reaching this plateau on a constant basis.

By underutilizing, I mean playing said player to less than he could and should be playing. Carbo won't play the new guy 25 minutes, as he could already play d-man other than Markov 25 minutes would he so desire, but he does not.

And Bouwmeester will command the trading price of a d-man who will be used to his best potential. And that's not 20 minutes. It 25-28. So, underutilized, he would be. And overpriced.

Let's just find a real number 4, to do a number 4 duty, and be paid number 4 assets. This way, we'll stay better in other areas, and still fix our problem on D.

Here's an idea that might work! Let's get the best players available and let the coach decide on their utilization.

[animerules1x3]

This.

Here's an idea that might work! Let's get the best players available and let the coach decide on their utilization.

That's a good idea. Or we could get the most needed players available and let the coach decide on their utilization.

[tmash]

Bouwmeester is used to player at least 25 mins a game, and often more than that. We don't have 25 minutes to allocate our future new addition. Using him 18-20 minutes would be underutilizing him. And Carbo won't play the top 4 25 minutes each. He's already not doing that, as only Markov is reaching this plateau on a constant basis.

By underutilizing, I mean playing said player to less than he could and should be playing. Carbo won't play the new guy 25 minutes, as he could already play d-man other than Markov 25 minutes would he so desire, but he does not.

And Bouwmeester will command the trading price of a d-man who will be used to his best potential. And that's not 20 minutes. It 25-28. So, underutilized, he would be. And overpriced.

Let's just find a real number 4, to do a number 4 duty, and be paid number 4 assets. This way, we'll stay better in other areas, and still fix our problem on D.

I really don't see what the problem would be with us being able to play him for 25 minutes a game. Play him and Markov 25 minutes each, play the third pairing the other ten. If Hamrlik and Komisarek are not able to play 25 minutes with their defense partners, sub Gorges and Bouillion in there for a few shifts, or have a few JayBo-Markov shifts.

You make it sound like we can only play him for 20 minutes a game, but this doesn't add up. Markov is already playing more than that and in a 60 minute game there's plenty of time to play both him and Markov 25 minutes.

[jl-1]

That's a good idea. Or we could get the most needed players available and let the coach decide on their utilization.

The most needed to me is the best available.

[animerules1x3]

The most needed to me is the best available.

Or the one that's the better quality-price-use package, which isn't the bidding-war-to-be-in D-man.

Seriously, this is going nowhere. Jaybo never will be a hab, and we might not even trade for a rental player in the end. Now, with GOW2 out and my job beginning next week, I'll have ever so little time to waste talking evidences over a forum.

So, consider you won... until Jaybo is traded to another team come deadline, and then signs with a lousy team for the most money available to him.

In the meantime, I'll continue to believe what I do, and I'll even be fair enough not to come gloat at you for being wrong, when we'll win the cup with a Ohlund or Boynton-kind of rental... and with Higgins still on the lineup.

[Bourne]

I just did a brief evaluation based on this notion we cannot run Bouwmeester for x amount of time and be successful. San Jose runs two defensemen almost 25 minutes a game, as does Boston, Minnesota and Buffalo. The only team with a better goals against average then us that also follows our system is New York; hell Boston runs three defensemen nearly 25 minutes (Chara is 26 actually) Another interesting fact is none of those aforementioned teams would have the ridiculous offensive and defensive output as us if we ran Markov and Bouwmeester 25+, Hamrlik and Komisarek 20+ and Gorges, Boullion whatever is remaining.

The reason I heavily am pressing for Bouwmeester is because we will revive what has been forgotten; fear. Last season when Montreal went to the powerplay players' lost their nerve and fans cried at the near guarantee possibility of a goal (Having actually visited a few other forums, this is not an exaggeration. To paragraph: "OH **** they're on the powerplay!!!" was a phase I often read or "Well there goes a goal "

That does not exist any longer, our powerplay is a laughing stock and has been since the playoffs. Kovalev is contained and Markov has no one to setup the cannon ball let alone have someone set him up for it. Bouwmeester would be phenomenal as teams now have to consider who is more dangerous, Markov and Bouwmeester on the point or Kovalev lurking around the shot and pray they make the correct decision. Could another defenseman fill in the void? Certainly possibly however why satisfy for good when we can spring for phenomenal?

[animerules1x3]

I just did a brief evaluation based on this notion we cannot run Bouwmeester for x amount of time and be successful. San Jose runs two defensemen almost 25 minutes a game, as does Boston, Minnesota and Buffalo. The only team with a better goals against average then us that also follows our system is New York; hell Boston runs three defensemen nearly 25 minutes (Chara is 26 actually) Another interesting fact is none of those aforementioned teams would have the ridiculous offensive and defensive output as us if we ran Markov and Bouwmeester 25+, Hamrlik and Komisarek 20+ and Gorges, Boullion whatever is remaining.

Carbonneau won't do such a thing. Hamrlik and Komisarek could already take on more icetime, but they don't. And Gorges and Bouillon aren't playing scraps of ice time. They are actually fairly used. Carbonneau rolls three pairings, and four lines. Should've noticed that as of now.

The reason I heavily am pressing for Bouwmeester is because we will revive what has been forgotten; fear. Last season when Montreal went to the powerplay players' lost their nerve and fans cried at the near guarantee possibility of a goal (Having actually visited a few other forums, this is not an exaggeration. To paragraph: "OH **** they're on the powerplay!!!" was a phase I often read or "Well there goes a goal "

That does not exist any longer, our powerplay is a laughing stock and has been since the playoffs. Kovalev is contained and Markov has no one to setup the cannon ball let alone have someone set him up for it. Bouwmeester would be phenomenal as teams now have to consider who is more dangerous, Markov and Bouwmeester on the point or Kovalev lurking around the shot and pray they make the correct decision. Could another defenseman fill in the void? Certainly possibly however why satisfy for good when we can spring for phenomenal?

Because good will probably cost half the cost, if not lower, than phenomenal.

Bouwmeester could add offensive output, but we'd be losing Higgins' offensive output, thus offsetting Bouwmeester's output.

We can get a d-man who will fill the need for a defensively-reliable presence besides Hamrlik, in place of O'Byrne, without paying the high price. I see zero reason to pay said high price.

Example : Higgins + Bouynton is better than Bouwmeester alone.

[Bourne]

Because good will probably cost half the cost, if not lower, than phenomenal.

Bouwmeester could add offensive output, but we'd be losing Higgins' offensive output, thus offsetting Bouwmeester's output.

We can get a d-man who will fill the need for a defensively-reliable presence besides Hamrlik, in place of O'Byrne, without paying the high price. I see zero reason to pay said high price.

Example : Higgins + Bouynton is better than Bouwmeester alone.

By offensive output you mean his 120+ shots that hit everything but the net?

Yes I kidding, however what of Patches? Could he not fill the void left by Higgins or Sergei being given a chance to run with the two top lines? We also have Latendresse who may reclaim his spot with Koivu and Tanguay anyway. I like Higgins, I do however he is a fifty point player and they are commonplace on the forward front. As for O'Byrne; really what has he done noticeably for the team? So essentially it becomes a Higgins for Bouwmeester deal and the latter could out point the former; Markov has.

Furthermore how do you proper we deal for Boyton or maybe Bieksa, Salo or whoever else? Higgins is probably going to be the bail for even a fourth defenseman. No matter how you view the deals, I believe if we attempt any trades Higgins is apart of it.

[fourtrax]

As Graeme said, the only effect would be on our third pairing. They'd play fewer minutes AND THAT WOULD BE A-OKAY WITH ME. :)

[animerules1x3]

By offensive output you mean his 120+ shots that hit everything but the net?

Yes I kidding, however what of Patches? Could he not fill the void left by Higgins or Sergei being given a chance to run with the two top lines? We also have Latendresse who may reclaim his spot with Koivu and Tanguay anyway. I like Higgins, I do however he is a fifty point player and they are commonplace on the forward front. As for O'Byrne; really what has he done noticeably for the team? So essentially it becomes a Higgins for Bouwmeester deal and the latter could out point the former; Markov has.

Furthermore how do you proper we deal for Boyton or maybe Bieksa, Salo or whoever else? Higgins is probably going to be the bail for even a fourth defenseman. No matter how you view the deals, I believe if we attempt any trades Higgins is apart of it.

So, we drop Higgins and add another inexperimented forward up front to then have a certain someone say our forwards cannot do their jobs properly in the playoffs ?

I, too, am kidding on this score. But we're on a cup run, not exactly the time to drop a kiddo on a primary scoring role and ask of him to fill the net at 20. Higgins is 25-26, soon to be entering his prime. He can do much more than Pacioretty now and unless I'm mistaken, you are all talking of now.

I don't think Higgins has to go in a trade for a decent 4th D-man, but that's yet another story.

Besides, it doesn't become a Higgins for Bouwmeester because in the original idea, there was a salary dump (bégin I believe) who I don't care about, and a high-end defensive prospect. Plus O'Byrne, who doesn't do the job now, but is very much expected to when he had more experience, which we can't really afford to have him get this year. (the same thing applies to whoever from Hamilton would replace Higgins) Too much by quantity.

[animerules1x3]

As Graeme said, the only effect would be on our third pairing. They'd play fewer minutes AND THAT WOULD BE A-OKAY WITH ME. :)

Carbonneau won't do that. He already could use Komisarek and Hamrlik more, but he doesn't. He rolls all his six D-men, and has shown not to be a coach who let his players on the bench for too long a time. He has repeated many times now, and proved that in action, that he believes in keeping everyone happy, sharp, and healthy, by making them share the workload more evenly than in most teams.

So, Bouwmeester would come in here to not play 28 minutes, and not play 25 every night. Even Markov doesn't always play 25 minutes with Carbo's style of rolling, and Markie is a better player than Bouwmeester in every aspect of the game.

[tmash]

Carbonneau won't do that. He already could use Komisarek and Hamrlik more, but he doesn't. He rolls all his six D-men, and has shown not to be a coach who let his players on the bench for too long a time. He has repeated many times now, and proved that in action, that he believes in keeping everyone happy, sharp, and healthy, by making them share the workload more evenly than in most teams.

So, Bouwmeester would come in here to not play 28 minutes, and not play 25 every night. Even Markov doesn't always play 25 minutes with Carbo's style of rolling, and Markie is a better player than Bouwmeester in every aspect of the game.

I'm afriad you may be right, but I'd rather not block a trade on our coach's stubbornness. And while I doubt he would want to do this, there's no reason Gainey can't tell Carbo that Jaybo is to play 25 minutes+ a night.

[animerules1x3]

I'm afriad you may be right, but I'd rather not block a trade on our coach's stubbornness. And while I doubt he would want to do this, there's no reason Gainey can't tell Carbo that Jaybo is to play 25 minutes+ a night.

Gainey is already forcing Carbo's hand in using Laraque. If he starts forcing him into more and more things, they will create unnecessary tensions. Gainey is the gm and Carbo the coach. It isn't Gainey's job to decide when and how players are used. His job is to get them, or trade them.

Besides, it is that stubborness that helped making our last-season nearly injiury-free. Players that aren't overused and overstressed are players who risk fatigue-related injury much-less. It was luck, but not a coincidence, if we went all last season with so little injuries. Carbonneau's is right to do things the way he does them.

[gunner_canadian]

Would you give up a Ryan mcdonaugh for a 5 year signed Jay Bouwmeester??

[animerules1x3]

Would you give up a Ryan mcdonaugh for a 5 year signed Jay Bouwmeester??

That's a thinker. I guess it would depend on what other parts there would be to give along with McDo. It would, to me, signify the end of Komisarek in Montreal. I wouldn't pay four D-men over 5 millions.

I'd certainly consider it, but the trade lacks parts as of now.

[leafs_rock_go_mccabe]

Would you give up a Ryan mcdonaugh for a 5 year signed Jay Bouwmeester??

Yes.

[zenderjetta]

I agree with both you and anetechrist on this...It's short term "Win Now" thinking which is more often then not a recipe for disaster.

Agreed - and as you point out this is not Gainey's mode of operating. See the Huet trade - long term thinking when everyone else was screaming for a big aquisition for a cup run.

This team will change significantly over the off-season due to cap issues - why make it even tougher by bringing in one more big salary in Bouwmeester?

[tmash]

Gainey is already forcing Carbo's hand in using Laraque. If he starts forcing him into more and more things, they will create unnecessary tensions. Gainey is the gm and Carbo the coach. It isn't Gainey's job to decide when and how players are used. His job is to get them, or trade them.

Besides, it is that stubborness that helped making our last-season nearly injiury-free. Players that aren't overused and overstressed are players who risk fatigue-related injury much-less. It was luck, but not a coincidence, if we went all last season with so little injuries. Carbonneau's is right to do things the way he does them.

Well but if the ice time is the deal breaker, I'm sure Gainey and Carbo could work something out. If it means bringing in JayBo, I'm sure Carbo will promise to play him 25 minutes+.

[jl-1]

So, consider you won...

There's your problem right there. You're trying to win a discussion. I'm trying to win a Cup.

As Graeme said, the only effect would be on our third pairing. They'd play fewer minutes AND THAT WOULD BE A-OKAY WITH ME. :)

Exactly.

Carbonneau won't do that. He already could use Komisarek and Hamrlik more, but he doesn't. He rolls all his six D-men, and has shown not to be a coach who let his players on the bench for too long a time. He has repeated many times now, and proved that in action, that he believes in keeping everyone happy, sharp, and healthy, by making them share the workload more evenly than in most teams.

So, Bouwmeester would come in here to not play 28 minutes, and not play 25 every night. Even Markov doesn't always play 25 minutes with Carbo's style of rolling, and Markie is a better player than Bouwmeester in every aspect of the game.

If that were true, why did Markov play over 28 minutes last night? <moderator edit: please try to respect others opinions> Carbo will play his best players available depending on game situations.

[animerules1x3]

There's your problem right there. You're trying to win a discussion. I'm trying to win a Cup.

Yeah, by doing the same mistake Shero just did. You should know better than to ask for big-name rentals by now.

My problem is that I am right, and I have all sorts of trouble to let go of arguments when I'm right, even when said arguments have no say at all over my life.

If that were true, why did Markov play over 28 minutes last night? It's ***** and you know it. Carbo will play his best players available depending on game situations.

Markov doesn't play 28 minutes every night. He doesn't even play 25 every night. That is fact, .

Besides, the spot that need fixing is the one that was manned by Brisebois, last night. And it was used for less than 14 minutes.

No matter how you look at it, Bouwmeester would be overdoing it.

[jl-1]

Yeah, by doing the same mistake Shero just did. You should know better than to ask for big-name rentals by now.

There's another mistake, thinking that we can't re-sign him... we don't know that so let's not assume.

My problem is that I am right, and I have all sorts of trouble to let go of arguments when I'm right, even when said arguments have no say at all over my life.

You think you're right. Others think that their opinion also holds ground. An opinion is just that. I doubt that yours is better than mine or vice-versa.

Markov doesn't play 28 minutes every night. He doesn't even play 25 every night.

Fair enough. Then if it were true, wouldn't he have the same playing time as all other defensemen on the team?

[animerules1x3]

Phoenix is the kind of team that would actually make the most of Bouwmeester's acquisition.

They have the cap space to afford him.

They have more NHL-ready prospects at the forward position to tempt the Panthers without killing them short term.

Thay are on a fine line to make the playoffs and need more of a big push forward.

And they actually have a 2nd D position to fill by Jovanovski's side.

For them it makes sense to overpay. Not for us.

[fourtrax]

Gainey had his hat in the ring for the same big-name rental (Hossa). Let's stop pretending that trading chips to acquire a rental is some sort of terrible idea that no sane person would pursue, because our own Bob Gainey has tried to do it himself.

First of all, if Gainey went out and got Carbonneau a player like Bouwmeester, he'd play big minutes. Those minutes would get split between him, Markov, Komisarek, and Hamrlik, but he'd play, and our third pairing would play less. One thing I have noticed is that Carbonneau does seem to have learned to coach players based on their strengths, not solely according to his schemes. Right now he's spreading out the D minutes because our top-four isn't strong enough to handle a heavier workload. Bouwmeester enters the picture and that changes radically.

If a player of Bouwmeester's caliber is available and I have a shot at him, I'm a fool to reject him out of hand, and arrogant too, to think my team is so dang good that it doesn't need to improve.

[tmash]

Okay tone it down a bit. This is going from a hockey debate to personal attacks. I've just had to edit a few posts, which I don't like doing.