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And he has the best defense in the league, which helps create that high SV%.

So why is manny fernadez - who by all accounts is a pretty good goalie

9.13 save percentage and a 2.44 goals against? Same numbers basically his whole carreer.

If what your saying makes any sense at all....I would suspect Fernandez numbers to reflect Thomas nusbers.

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So why is manny fernadez - who by all accounts is a pretty good goalie

9.13 save percentage and a 2.44 goals against? Same numbers basically his whole carreer.

If what your saying makes any sense at all....I would suspect Fernandez numbers to reflect Thomas nusbers.

I said Thomas is a good goalie, hes just not a great aka top 5 goalie.

Manny Fernandez on the other hand, is a below-average goalie who has gotten worse defense than Thomas.

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And he has the best defense in the league, which helps create that high SV%.

I don't think defence and save percentage have any connections. Maybe goals against average but not save percentage.

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I personally think Luongo, Price, Brodeur, Roloson are all better then Thomas, Boston has fantastic D.

I hate to burst your bubble,but you should say you hope that Price can eventually become half as good as Thomas.and boy does it kill me to say that! :o At this time,imo,Price doesn't even belong anywhere near this discussion! :mellow:

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I hate to burst your bubble,but you should say you hope that Price can eventually become half as good as Thomas.and boy does it kill me to say that! :o At this time,imo,Price doesn't even belong anywhere near this discussion! :mellow:

Agreed. Price shouldn't even be the starter of the Habs, Halak should be. Thomas is miles better than Price.

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I said Thomas is a good goalie, hes just not a great aka top 5 goalie.

Manny Fernandez on the other hand, is a below-average goalie who has gotten worse defense than Thomas.

So let me get this straight!

They play on the same team...But Manny Fernandez has gotten worse defense than Tim Thomas..???

Can you possibly say anything that makes less sense then that?

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So let me get this straight!

They play on the same team...But Manny Fernandez has gotten worse defense than Tim Thomas..???

Can you possibly say anything that makes less sense then that?

Yeah the Brodeur comparison leaves me shaking my head as well. In any case I would rather have a solid defence rather than leave it to the goalie to stand on his head to save the teams he plays for.

For what Thomas has done in Boston this is a good signing at a very reasonable price while taking into account that the Cap will likely drop over the next few years. The guy has shown he can play 55-60 games a season the last 2 seasons (and this season) and has been at or near the top in the league last season and this season. He is 34 and Boston should get at least another 3 good seasons out of him.

But most importantly it gives Boston the time they need to develop Rask, who is only 22 years old, properly rather than throwing him into the NHL pressure cooker like Montreal has done with Price.

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So let me get this straight!

They play on the same team...But Manny Fernandez has gotten worse defense than Tim Thomas..???

Can you possibly say anything that makes less sense then that?

http://hockeystats.no-ip.org:81/team.php?id=20

Note the Shot Quality Neutralized %, Thomas has a .932% and Manny a .916%, Thomas gotten significant better defense. Its entirely plausible, maybe Manny went in when the Bruins were in a bad funk more often that Thomas was.

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Yeah the Brodeur comparison leaves me shaking my head as well.

You can't tell me that Brodeur doesn't makes saves look unnecessarily difficult at times.

Please do not miss what I'm saying, he makes some incredible saves that nobody else could make at times, but his whole flop and drop routine sometimes makes incredible saves that hit the highlight reel that Ryan Miller make look routine.

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And he has the best defense in the league, which helps create that high SV%.

Not always, GAA and Shutouts obviously favour goalies who face less shots. But save percentage doesn't really hurt goalies with poor defenses since it takes number of shots into account. I mean, this isn't completely true: if you have a defense who can't clear a rebound or gives up a higher percentage of 'good' scoring chances, then it will hurt; but in general save percentage seems to be fairly team independent.

And Thomas isn't good fundamentally, but he is kind of like Hasek: finds a way to keep the puck out of the net.

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http://hockeystats.no-ip.org:81/team.php?id=20

Note the Shot Quality Neutralized %, Thomas has a .932% and Manny a .916%, Thomas gotten significant better defense. Its entirely plausible, maybe Manny went in when the Bruins were in a bad funk more often that Thomas was.

yet another bogus stat... there is no way to make certain hockey stats completely 'objective', EVERY attempt is by its very nature 'subjective'...

'shot quality neutralized'? how is that 'calculated'? by taking a description from the play-by-play which is limited by the program the NHL scorers use to begin with, relies on the scorer to record it 'accurately' -- unless he's got the ice all marked up, it's always a guess as to shot 'distance' -- and 'objectively'... and how much do each of those factors affect that SQN stat? as much as the person who created the stat says they do!...

so all these 'stats' don't prove much of anything...

I'm not saying GAA or Sv% are perfect stats -- there is no such thing in hockey-- but they are what they are, measures of how many goals a goalie allows in 60 min and how many shots they stop on average... they don't claim to be objective measures of who's a better goalie...

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But save percentage doesn't really hurt goalies with poor defenses since it takes number of shots into account. I mean, this isn't completely true: if you have a defense who can't clear a rebound or gives up a higher percentage of 'good' scoring chances, then it will hurt; but in general save percentage seems to be fairly team independent.

I disagree about it being independent, a good defense who keeps shots to the outside and allows fewer scoring chances obviously favors the goalie where as a team like, say Buffalo, plays a style that gives up a significant number of scoring chances so Ryan Miller generally has a lower SV% but he's playing better then Thomas.

Shot quality does a better job of isolating a goalie than SV% does.

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yet another bogus stat... there is no way to make certain hockey stats completely 'objective', EVERY attempt is by its very nature 'subjective'...

'shot quality neutralized'? how is that 'calculated'? by taking a description from the play-by-play which is limited by the program the NHL scorers use to begin with, relies on the scorer to record it 'accurately' -- unless he's got the ice all marked up, it's always a guess as to shot 'distance' -- and 'objectively'... and how much do each of those factors affect that SQN stat? as much as the person who created the stat says they do!...

so all these 'stats' don't prove much of anything...

I'm not saying GAA or Sv% are perfect stats -- there is no such thing in hockey-- but they are what they are, measures of how many goals a goalie allows in 60 min and how many shots they stop on average... they don't claim to be objective measures of who's a better goalie...

I 100% agree Wayne. However its not the fact that its a perfect stat, its just that its less worse than the next best thing.

On how the distance is calculated FYI, th RTSS scorers have a system that they have a screenshot of the ice, what they do is they do take a subjective guess of where the puck was shot from and push the respective area of the ice. Then the system calculates the distance (x.y) to the net.

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http://hockeystats.no-ip.org:81/team.php?id=20

Note the Shot Quality Neutralized %, Thomas has a .932% and Manny a .916%, Thomas gotten significant better defense. Its entirely plausible, maybe Manny went in when the Bruins were in a bad funk more often that Thomas was.

Sport, I respect a lot of your stats...but even using the shot quality neutralized...Thomas numbers are still significantly higher than Manny with the same deeman.

Thomas went from a 93.3 sv % to a 93.2 sqn%

Fernandez went from a 91.4 sv % to a 91.6 sqn%

the change was so miniscule - it is obvious that defense has no bearing on the two. If they flip flopped on the SQN% I may say u have something.

You just proved how ridiculous your argument is. It is obvious they face similiar shots and get similiar results from their defense.

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Sport, I respect a lot of your stats...but even using the shot quality neutralized...Thomas numbers are still significantly higher than Manny with the same deeman.

Thomas went from a 93.3 sv % to a 93.2 sqn%

Fernandez went from a 91.4 sv % to a 91.6 sqn%

the change was so miniscule - it is obvious that defense has no bearing on the two. If they flip flopped on the SQN% I may say u have something.

You just proved how ridiculous your argument is. It is obvious they face similiar shots and get similiar results from their defense.

Thats not what I'm arguing though, the "defense" is measure in the SQN%. I'm not talking about goalie ability and right now the spread of "defense" is .016 which is fairly large.

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I disagree about it being independent, a good defense who keeps shots to the outside and allows fewer scoring chances obviously favors the goalie where as a team like, say Buffalo, plays a style that gives up a significant number of scoring chances so Ryan Miller generally has a lower SV% but he's playing better then Thomas.

Shot quality does a better job of isolating a goalie than SV% does.

Some teams give up more scoring chances obviously, but the same teams tend to give up a lot of total shots as well which helps even it out.

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