hockey151 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 So Hossa leaves the penguins last season after losing a stanley cup final run against the Detroit Red Wings. So he decides to join with the ennemy because he believes the Red Wings will give him a better chance at getting the cup. Only to find his former team playing him in the finals and beating him and walking away with the trophy. HA HA HA HOSSA HA HA HA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket-1 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 lol yeah that's pretty funny. And the fact that he didn't do much in both finals at least offensively. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I guess its funny, but you know what, for all the crap people give pro athletes for going for the money, for not caring, for taking the competetiveness out of sports, heres a guy who all he wanted was to win and I can respet that. I wanted the Pens to win just because I was sick of the Wings winning, but I wanted Hossa to win. If we are at a point, where we criticize people with a passion and desire to win, then it really shows what the modern sports era has done to fans perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innis_Mor Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yes, I would have thought the thing to do was stick with the team that traded away a lot of quality to get you, rather than take a (slight) pay cut to play for the reigning champs for one year. It all trumps with him coming up blanks offensively in the finals. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a point or two, here or there, from Hossa, and the Red Wings could have or would have won the Stanley Cup. There certainly does seem to be an element of hubris at play here. _______________________ On another player, my view of Sidney Crosby has changed virtually 180 degrees, with these play-offs. That was a mature man out there, throughout the playoffs, leading his team with focus, dedication and great play. No whining, no diving, very little celebrating; just sucking it up and getting right back at it -- leading by example throughout (which is my favourite 'leader' quality). This 'new' Sidney Crosby will be key for Team Canada 2010. In fact, I don't think I'd really have a problem with the team appointing him captain, not that it matters that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket-1 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I guess its funny, but you know what, for all the crap people give pro athletes for going for the money, for not caring, for taking the competetiveness out of sports, heres a guy who all he wanted was to win and I can respet that. It's not like his team finished 12 last year and he didn't make the playoffs. He wanted an easy cup and im glad he didn't win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yes, I would have thought the thing to do was stick with the team that traded away a lot of quality to get you, rather than take a (slight) pay cut to play for the reigning champs for one year. It all trumps with him coming up blanks offensively in the finals. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a point or two, here or there, from Hossa, and the Red Wings could have or would have won the Stanley Cup. There certainly does seem to be an element of hubris at play here. _______________________ On another player, my view of Sidney Crosby has changed virtually 180 degrees, with these play-offs. That was a mature man out there, throughout the playoffs, leading his team with focus, dedication and great play. No whining, no diving, very little celebrating; just sucking it up and getting right back at it -- leading by example throughout (which is my favourite 'leader' quality). This 'new' Sidney Crosby will be key for Team Canada 2010. In fact, I don't think I'd really have a problem with the team appointing him captain, not that it matters that much. Why does it matter if a team traded assets for him? He owes them jack, he played with them for just a handful of months. It's not like his team finished 12 last year and he didn't make the playoffs. He wanted an easy cup and im glad he didn't win it. How many athletes ever do that? All pro atheletes evr do nowdasy is go for the big bucks, yes Hossa went to the best team with the easiest chance to win, so what? Why must he be criticized for wanting to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I don't have a problem with him wanting to win, but there are so many people who say how great he is and how great it was for him to do what he did. So far he is 0 for 2 in the stanley cup finals. Perhaps he is just a tad bit overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I don't have a problem with him wanting to win, but there are so many people who say how great he is and how great it was for him to do what he did. So far he is 0 for 2 in the stanley cup finals. Perhaps he is just a tad bit overrated. Hossa is not 0 for 2, his team is 0 for 2 that hes been on during the Finals, saying what you are is indicating that he is directly responsible for the loss, which isn't true. Overrated in what sense, that he had a bad series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hossa is not 0 for 2, his team is 0 for 2 that hes been on during the Finals, saying what you are is indicating that he is directly responsible for the loss, which isn't true. Overrated in what sense, that he had a bad series? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Hossa was on the losing team on both occasions and didn't elevate his game to propel his team forward on either occasion. Detroit is a great team who won the cup last year and have the deeper team overall, but Pittsburgh still won despite that. I'd say Hossa is directly responcible in that he wasn't able to come up with even one big game in the finals this year. I think he is overrated in how much money he makes vs how much he produces both during the regular season and especially in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm not sure what you mean by that. Hossa was on the losing team on both occasions and didn't elevate his game to propel his team forward on either occasion. Detroit is a great team who won the cup last year and have the deeper team overall, but Pittsburgh still won despite that. I'd say Hossa is directly responcible in that he wasn't able to come up with even one big game in the finals this year. I think he is overrated in how much money he makes vs how much he produces both during the regular season and especially in the playoffs. You're right he was on the losing team in both Finals and didn't play well. That doesn't mean the loss is his fault, the team as a whole is still to blame and he as a key player is a key player to blame, but not one upon which the blame falls solely. I suppose 7.5 is very high and into that elite category, but he is a cereer .44 GPG guy who has scored at rates of .54, .40 .52 and .49 the last 4 years and asides from this season has had a pretty good assist rate, not to mention hes a great defensive player. Also if you take into context decreased playoff scoring (which usually goes down by about 10%) and adjust his playoff rates, his regular season rates is .44 GPG and .93 PPG and his adjusted playoff rates are about .42 GPG and .89 PPG, so his play doesn't really fall off that much in the playoffs, he just doesn't stand out and play over his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yeesh I miscalculated that... his adjusted playoff rates are like .35 GPG and .87 PPG, while worse than his RS numbers its still not choke artist like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yeesh I miscalculated that... his adjusted playoff rates are like .35 GPG and .87 PPG, while worse than his RS numbers its still not choke artist like. It's not bad points per game, but it's not a 9 million a year player which is what most teams would have to pay for him. I think around 5 to 6 million a year is around where he should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 It's not bad points per game, but it's not a 9 million a year player which is what most teams would have to pay for him. I think around 5 to 6 million a year is around where he should be. You're right its not 9 mil worthy, especially when Malkin and Crosby don't even make 9 mil. However the thing with analyzing playoff scoring is the sample size which is a pet peeve of mine. We take a 12-20 game sample and overanalyze to an excruitiating amount, when at any time during a 12-20 game stretch in the regular season a player could get hot or cold and nobody (at least nobody smart) would say this is what the player is and will always produce. Theres so much luck factor in the small sample of playoff analysis that trying to say this guy is a choker or another guy is clutch is just wasting breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You're right its not 9 mil worthy, especially when Malkin and Crosby don't even make 9 mil. However the thing with analyzing playoff scoring is the sample size which is a pet peeve of mine. We take a 12-20 game sample and overanalyze to an excruitiating amount, when at any time during a 12-20 game stretch in the regular season a player could get hot or cold and nobody (at least nobody smart) would say this is what the player is and will always produce. Theres so much luck factor in the small sample of playoff analysis that trying to say this guy is a choker or another guy is clutch is just wasting breath. That is true to an extent, but look at how many playoff games Koivu and Kovalev and played and both have better points per game during the playoffs and make a lot less money. They also have both played on bad teams for the majority of their careers. Aside from Atlanta Hossa has been on some really good teams in Ottawa, Pittsburgh, and Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 That is true to an extent, but look at how many playoff games Koivu and Kovalev and played and both have better points per game during the playoffs and make a lot less money. They also have both played on bad teams for the majority of their careers. Aside from Atlanta Hossa has been on some really good teams in Ottawa, Pittsburgh, and Detroit. I could make the same argument for both Koivu and Kovalev, but the other way around. Koivu has played 54 playoff games, that not even a full regular seasons worth, so theres extreme sample size issues there that could be factors of luck. Kovalev has a substantial # of playoff games but at the same time 116 games is really only a season and a bit. I can't look at nearly any players playoff numbers are conclude that anybody is a choker or clutch, theres too many variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I could make the same argument for both Koivu and Kovalev, but the other way around. Koivu has played 54 playoff games, that not even a full regular seasons worth, so theres extreme sample size issues there that could be factors of luck. Kovalev has a substantial # of playoff games but at the same time 116 games is really only a season and a bit. I can't look at nearly any players playoff numbers are conclude that anybody is a choker or clutch, theres too many variables. I don't really agree with that. Some guys are better in the playoffs then others. The regular season can lull a lot of players to sleep, but if you can step up when it counts in the playoffs thats important. A good example is Joe Thornton who has not be able to produce during the big games in the playoffs. Some players are just better at producing when the spotlight is on. If 50 and 100 playoff games is not enough to get a good idea of what a player will produce in the playoffs then what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I guess its funny, but you know what, for all the crap people give pro athletes for going for the money, for not caring, for taking the competetiveness out of sports, heres a guy who all he wanted was to win and I can respet that. I have mixed feelings, on the one hand he turned down a lot of money to get what he thought was his best shot at the cup, proving he wasn't just in it for the money. On the other hand, it did seem kind of like a cheap way to try and win a cup. I respect him for not just taking the money, but I think winning the cup (had he won it) would have meant a lot more if he helped the Pens or another team to get better and was considered part of their core rather than tacking onto the current champions. Think he signs with Pittsburgh next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I don't really agree with that. Some guys are better in the playoffs then others. The regular season can lull a lot of players to sleep, but if you can step up when it counts in the playoffs thats important. A good example is Joe Thornton who has not be able to produce during the big games in the playoffs. Some players are just better at producing when the spotlight is on. If 50 and 100 playoff games is not enough to get a good idea of what a player will produce in the playoffs then what is? A lot more than that. Look I'll take your boy Kovalev, in 06-07 he played 73 games putting up .25 GPG and .64 PPG. Now we all know that wasn't the real Kovalev, but he played 73 games, to some thats a career worth of playoff games, and thats the problem. We somtimes need 300+ regular season games to determine what the "real" player is, why should it be different for the playoffs, because theres more pressure? The same factors of hockey are still in place that could influence a guys numbers in such a short span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 A lot more than that. Look I'll take your boy Kovalev, in 06-07 he played 73 games putting up .25 GPG and .64 PPG. Now we all know that wasn't the real Kovalev, but he played 73 games, to some thats a career worth of playoff games, and thats the problem. We somtimes need 300+ regular season games to determine what the "real" player is, why should it be different for the playoffs, because theres more pressure? The same factors of hockey are still in place that could influence a guys numbers in such a short span. Again the playoffs and the regular season are different beats. I would argue that because the regular season is to long and because there are so many games that lack intensity it's hard for the players to get up and produce lot of points. A lot of the smarter players save their energy for the playoffs when it matters the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Again the playoffs and the regular season are different beats. I would argue that because the regular season is to long and because there are so many games that lack intensity it's hard for the players to get up and produce lot of points. A lot of the smarter players save their energy for the playoffs when it matters the most. Then how come scoring goes down 10% in the playoffs? How historically if you look at the average numbers the scoring rates go down? I would love to hear proof for your first statement, because until then its just speculation. Even if they are different beasts (which I beg to differ) the sample size issues are still there. No matter how much you change the game the issues will still be there. The playoffs in every professional sport is a crapshoot full of luck no matter which way you slice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket-1 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 How many athletes ever do that? All pro atheletes evr do nowdasy is go for the big bucks, yes Hossa went to the best team with the easiest chance to win, so what? Why must he be criticized for wanting to win? It's funny your talking like he played in Detroit for 800k a year, he was Detroit highest paid player at 7.450 and bonuses. He basically refused a 550,000$ difference to win an easy cup (or to lose another one). Too bad for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Then how come scoring goes down 10% in the playoffs? How historically if you look at the average numbers the scoring rates go down? I would love to hear proof for your first statement, because until then its just speculation. Even if they are different beasts (which I beg to differ) the sample size issues are still there. No matter how much you change the game the issues will still be there. The playoffs in every professional sport is a crapshoot full of luck no matter which way you slice it. If the scoring goes down in the playoffs that just makes guys like Koivu and Kovalev look better as they are able to produce well in high pressure and very tight situations. I think you just proved your point that it is a different beast by saying the production goes down in the playoffs. The games mean a lot more and the games are a lot tighter in terms of checking and defense. The regular season is a marathon where you try to stay interested. The playoffs are a high pressure sprint where the spotlight is magnified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 It's funny your talking like he played in Detroit for 800k a year, he was Detroit highest paid player at 7.450 and bonuses. He basically refused a 550,000$ difference to win an easy cup (or to lose another one). Too bad for him. Ever hear of the players union smart guy? If the scoring goes down in the playoffs that just makes guys like Koivu and Kovalev look better as they are able to produce well in high pressure and very tight situations. I think you just proved your point that it is a different beast by saying the production goes down in the playoffs. The games mean a lot more and the games are a lot tighter in terms of checking and defense. The regular season is a marathon where you try to stay interested. The playoffs are a high pressure sprint where the spotlight is magnified. I could also make the argument scoring goes down because the weak goalies/defenses are out of the competetion level. However that is still not the issue as the one I keep pressing which is the sample size, that even if a player in 20 games has 10 goals and 30 points, it was still only 20 games which is not that much no matter how high the pressure of the situation. You could magnify it all you want but at the end of the day its still not large enough a sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teststory Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Ever hear of the players union smart guy? I could also make the argument scoring goes down because the weak goalies/defenses are out of the competetion level. However that is still not the issue as the one I keep pressing which is the sample size, that even if a player in 20 games has 10 goals and 30 points, it was still only 20 games which is not that much no matter how high the pressure of the situation. You could magnify it all you want but at the end of the day its still not large enough a sample. I have to disagree having watched certain players over their careers in the playoffs. Some players just elevate when more often then others when the game is very important. I can say pretty confidently that Koivu and Kovalev are both that type of player having seen them in the playoffs a lot. I can't confidently say that about Hossa even though he has ok playoff stats. I do believe 50 playoff games is more then enough to make a judgement on how a player performs in the playoffs. Even 20 to 30 games should be enough to make a judegment. The regular seasons is just to casual to make any major judements from it. The style that is played during the regular season and during the playoffs is just so different. If you are a hockey fan and have watched the regular season games vs the playoffs then you should know what I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubby31 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hossa jumps ship. Pens prevail. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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