Flunky Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 What's this? Trouble in paradise? Late-breaking story on TSN indicates Red Wings forward Jiri Hudler has "defected" back to Russia, and has signed a deal with Moscow Dynamo despite the fact that he is still under contract to Detroit. Kinda reminds me of the St.Valentenko's Day Massacre last season, when the Habs got blind-sided by Pavel V's sudden return to Mother Russia, also to sign with Dynamo. The good news is, now Gainey isn't the only GM to be tricked by this shameless pinko ploy. The bad news is, Montreal's fifth round pick this year (Alex Avtsin, currently attending Habs Development Camp) is Moscow Dynamo property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 He's not under contract. He filed for arbitration. I'm not sure if this is legally equivalent to signing a contract or not. My instinct says it isn't, but this is really just a guess. In any case, the NHL is claiming this means he de facto signed a contract for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunky Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 My bad. I thought he was still under contract literally, but you're right. He is in fact an RFA, with an expired contract, who had chosen to take Detroit to arbitration. By NHL rules, he is Detroit property, but he is not currently under contract to the club. Oh boy! The sheisters will have a field day with this one. So I guess Holland gets a pass by way of technicality, meaning Gainey is still the biggest patsy to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NvidiaN Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Yay, the red wings are getting worse and worse by the day! They've lost 5-6 pretty important pieces so far this off season...and I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 He's not under contract. He filed for arbitration. I'm not sure if this is legally equivalent to signing a contract or not. My instinct says it isn't, but this is really just a guess. In any case, the NHL is claiming this means he de facto signed a contract for next season. According to section 10.2 (a) (i) ( of the CBA: Notwithstanding the foregoing, if a Group 2 Player requests salary arbitration, or a Club requests salary arbitration, pursuant to Article 12, such Player will not be eligible to negotiate with any Club other than his Prior Club or sign an Offer Sheet pursuant to this Article 10, except as provided in Section 12.10. A group 2 Free agent is a RFA post-entry level. I guess whats bolded is the contested language. I'm not familiar with the transfer agreement and whether that may or may not co-relate, but that would be Holland's contestion, because its says with any Club, not any NHL club, so if othr clubs are included in the potential signing entity, it could be viewed as an infraction. Again this if its part of the tranfer agreement, which I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 According to section 10.2 (a) (i) ( of the CBA: Notwithstanding the foregoing, if a Group 2 Player requests salary arbitration, or a Club requests salary arbitration, pursuant to Article 12, such Player will not be eligible to negotiate with any Club other than his Prior Club or sign an Offer Sheet pursuant to this Article 10, except as provided in Section 12.10. A group 2 Free agent is a RFA post-entry level. I guess whats bolded is the contested language. I'm not familiar with the transfer agreement and whether that may or may not co-relate, but that would be Holland's contestion, because its says with any Club, not any NHL club, so if othr clubs are included in the potential signing entity, it could be viewed as an infraction. Again this if its part of the tranfer agreement, which I don't know. If that's all the NHL has, I really don't see it standing up. Legally, he hasn't signed a contract unless there is something you have to sign when you file for arbitration equivalent to the contract. And there is no transfer deal between the NHL and KHL, so there's no reason the KHL has to honour an internal NHL document (the CBA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 If that's all the NHL has, I really don't see it standing up. Legally, he hasn't signed a contract unless there is something you have to sign when you file for arbitration equivalent to the contract. And there is no transfer deal between the NHL and KHL, so there's no reason the KHL has to honour an internal NHL document (the CBA). Then it won't stand, I'm not aware of how the transfer proceeding went so if theres no agreement it won't stand as you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicochetII Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Arbitration ensures that the team owning the player's rights has the first opportunity to sign that player to a contract while ensuring that player receives a reasonable salary. Arbitration is no more a contract than an offer sheet, which becomes a contract only after a club has made an offer that the player accepts. So my view, is that it is fairly similar to the right of first refusal. You can pay the offered rate and contract that player, or you can refuse that rate and the player becomes unrestricted. From the time a player files for arbitration to the time the arbitrator reaches a decision, that team retains the rights to that player, but there is no contract until an offer has been made and accepted by both parties. We can assign the rights to any player in the world to an NHL team, but that only applies if the player chooses to play in the NHL. Just because you draft a player, or a player was on your roster last season, doesn't mean they have to play in the NHL next season. It simply means that if they choose to play in the NHL, it has to be with "this" team. Unless that player has a legally binding obligation, which isn't even possible until the arbitration process is concluded and there is an offer on the table. In order to make a filing for arbitration a legally binding contract, both parties would have to enter the process under the specifications that the decision made is legally binding for both parties. Giving the team the right to reject the arbitration ruling makes it impossible to declare an intention to enter arbitration a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Arbitration is no more a contract than an offer sheet, which becomes a contract only after a club has made an offer that the player accepts. So my view, is that it is fairly similar to the right of first refusal. I'm not sure, I always thought an offer sheet was a contract, just a special type where another team may take it over? But again, I don't know the specifics if it is legally considered a contract or just a de facto one within the NHL We can assign the rights to any player in the world to an NHL team, but that only applies if the player chooses to play in the NHL. Just because you draft a player, or a player was on your roster last season, doesn't mean they have to play in the NHL next season. It simply means that if they choose to play in the NHL, it has to be with "this" team. That's the way I see it. Various leagues regularly draft players without the players even agreeing to it. Unless there is some sort of transfer agreement between leagues that says they will honour each other's internal rules, I don't see how agreeing to arbitration gives the NHL any rights here. I suppose maybe the arbitration sheet says something like "I agree to play next season in the NHL" and they need to sign it, of course the issue becomes that teams don't ahve to accept arbitration results. My guess is the KHL wins this hands down. And frankly, even when the KHL poaches contracted NHL players or vice versa, nothing ever gets done, it's simply too difficult between leagues on opposite sides of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm not sure, I always thought an offer sheet was a contract, just a special type where another team may take it over? But again, I don't know the specifics if it is legally considered a contract or just a de facto one within the NHL Well heres the legal stuff on it: When a Restricted Free Agent receives an offer to sign an SPC from any Club (the "New Club") other than his Prior Club, which offer the Player desires to accept, he shall give to the Prior Club, in accordance with Exhibit 3 hereto, a completed certificate substantially in the form of Exhibit 6 attached hereto (the "Offer Sheet"), signed by the Restricted Free Agent and the New Club, which shall contain the "Principal Terms" (as defined below) as well as all other terms of compensation of the New Club's offer. The Prior Club, within seven (7) days after the date it receives the Offer Sheet, may exercise or not exercise its Right of First Refusal, which shall have the legal consequence set forth below. Once an Offer Sheet for a Restricted Free Agent has been received by the Prior Club, the Prior Club may not Trade or otherwise Assign its Right of First Refusal for such Restricted Free Agent. Seems to me that since he "signed" it, there is some legal binding, however I'm not sure if it legeally binds him to the team/league or if its signed as a procedure to bring the offer sheet to his home team. Thing is though, he signs a document that pertains information regarding his prospective compensation, so one can make a case that since he signed for prospective labor, he is binded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSD Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at the end of the day what is the nhl really going to do?? not let him play in the nhl?? if the guy doesnt get what he wants in terms of money from detroit hes going to play for dynamo and stay in russia...they arent going to arrest him over this lol and they havent lost any money, he played out his last contract... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicochetII Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm not sure, I always thought an offer sheet was a contract, just a special type where another team may take it over? But again, I don't know the specifics if it is legally considered a contract or just a de facto one within the NHL In order for an offer to become a contract, there has to be acceptance. In the case of an offer sheet, it becomes a contract only after the offered player signs it. I think arbitration may be misleading here. In arbitration, the parties in a dispute agree to be bound by the decision of another party. In NHL "arbitration" the player is essentially offering to sign for what the arbitrator decides is fair. Until that determination is made, it is merely an offer without acceptance, which I don't believe is legally binding on the player. I don't see any way the NHL or IIHF can rule in Detroit's favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 at the end of the day what is the nhl really going to do?? not let him play in the nhl?? if the guy doesnt get what he wants in terms of money from detroit hes going to play for dynamo and stay in russia...they arent going to arrest him over this lol and they havent lost any money, he played out his last contract... I believe what the NHL is trying to accomplish is discouraging players signing with the KHL because frankly this "stealing" business has been an ongoing thing for a while now and I imagine the NHL has grown tired of it. Of course as with the Phoenix debacle it would appear the suits in the NHL are not very well versed in legal savvy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSD Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I believe what the NHL is trying to accomplish is discouraging players signing with the KHL because frankly this "stealing" business has been an ongoing thing for a while now and I imagine the NHL has grown tired of it. Of course as with the Phoenix debacle it would appear the suits in the NHL are not very well versed in legal savvy. well yeah i understand that, but with the way players contracts are all blown up now days i guess hudler is just making sure that he is getting the best pay possible from somewhere...its not good, i dont like it, but i can see what he's doing...i dont think the khl stole hudler i think its more hudler trying to get the upper hand on detroit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmash Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I believe what the NHL is trying to accomplish is discouraging players signing with the KHL because frankly this "stealing" business has been an ongoing thing for a while now and I imagine the NHL has grown tired of it. I doubt it, the NHL gets way more out of leagues "stealing" players from other leagues than it loses (this applies particularly to players not under contract - although that's not really "stealing"; but also to players under contract, the NHL isn't innocent here). The last thing the NHL wants to do is get rid of poaching, they just want to make it a one way street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koreysecord1992 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Man, the Wings are going to look like a radically different team come next season. Unless some of these missing pieces are replaced with strong players, it doesn't look like it'll be for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSD Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Man, the Wings are going to look like a radically different team come next season. Unless some of these missing pieces are replaced with strong players, it doesn't look like it'll be for the better. they're due for a rebuild/mid-level performance season anyways they've been at the top for so many years now lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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