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The Next City In The States To Have A Team.....


whalerfan

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Wikipedia is an awesome source for all sorts of stuff. People slag on it because the general population can change things on the site. To me, that's incredibly beautiful. A source of information created through input from all over the globe. From me, you, and everyone else. That's brilliant. How is it any better or worse than anyone else providing information? Just because someone has a journalism degree doesn't mean they don't have a bias. Everyone has a slant... Not just people like you and me. Wikipedia is, like, the ultimate in democracy!

Wikipedia rocks.

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I believe Carolina has lost money every year besides the year they won the cup.....so yup I'm blind and ignorant. Way to have an intelligent discussion by the way.

You believe so huh? http://www.forbes.com/sports/lists/2008/31...nes_316561.html

That is for 2008, their 2006 report shows about the same revenue (around 70 million). Scroll down to the "Historical Snapshot" section and you'll see their revenue has been between 50-75 million dollars since 2001.

So yup, you're blind and ignorant. This all started because you said that I was the one who need to do some "research". Well its obvious your bias is clouding your judgement.

Oh, but let me guess, Forbes isn't a credible source, just like Wikipedia isn't, right?

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You believe so huh? http://www.forbes.com/sports/lists/2008/31...nes_316561.html

That is for 2008, their 2006 report shows about the same revenue (around 70 million). Scroll down to the "Historical Snapshot" section and you'll see their revenue has been between 50-75 million dollars since 2001.

So yup, you're blind and ignorant. This all started because you said that I was the one who need to do some "research". Well its obvious your bias is clouding your judgement.

Oh, but let me guess, Forbes isn't a credible source, just like Wikipedia isn't, right?

I'm not sure what your debate is about, but I don't think you're reading the report correctly. Yes, revenue is at 70 million, but that is not the same as profit. Operating income is what you should look at. In short, this is the difference between operating revenues and operating expenses, and is also sometimes referred to as operating profit. It is clear that, year in and year out, Carolina is in the red.

The skinny

After winning the Stanley Cup in 2006, the Carolina Hurricanes have missed the playoffs for two consecutive years, crimping the team's cash flow. Owner Peter Karmanos has publicly stated the team has not done a good job of promotion, selling tickets and advertising. One result: the team has not meet its league growth targets and has had its proceeds from revenue sharing decrease. Karmanos has recently taken a hands on approach to marketing the team and running its day-to-day business operations. He faces a tough challenge given North Carolina's love for auto racing and college basketball and will likely have to make another Cup run for sponsors and fans to come to the RBC Center in full force.

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I'm not sure what your debate is about, but I don't think you're reading the report correctly. Yes, revenue is at 70 million, but that is not the same as profit. Operating income is what you should look at. In short, this is the difference between operating revenues and operating expenses, and is also sometimes referred to as operating profit. It is clear that, year in and year out, Carolina is in the red.

The skinny

After winning the Stanley Cup in 2006, the Carolina Hurricanes have missed the playoffs for two consecutive years, crimping the team's cash flow. Owner Peter Karmanos has publicly stated the team has not done a good job of promotion, selling tickets and advertising. One result: the team has not meet its league growth targets and has had its proceeds from revenue sharing decrease. Karmanos has recently taken a hands on approach to marketing the team and running its day-to-day business operations. He faces a tough challenge given North Carolina's love for auto racing and college basketball and will likely have to make another Cup run for sponsors and fans to come to the RBC Center in full force.

thank you

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Two things...

1) Old Whaler Fan, I can feel your pain and I hope someday the Whalers come back...with a different owner..

2) Am I missing something? Alot of people who are posting here citites who should get a team, are listing Las Vegas. Las Vegas?? Are you people sure there is enough fan base there to support a team?

Look I'm a hockey fan, but if I'm out there on vacation and I have a choice of buying a ticket and going to a game, or sitting in a nice comfy chair in the sports book section of the casino, watching the Canadiens on one of the many big screens while a great looking cocktail waitress brings me complimentary drinks, guess what I'm doing?? My point is that there is a TON of competition for entertainment dollars in Las Vegas and I'm not sure a hockey team could compete.....

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Two things...

1) Old Whaler Fan, I can feel your pain and I hope someday the Whalers come back...with a different owner..

2) Am I missing something? Alot of people who are posting here citites who should get a team, are listing Las Vegas. Las Vegas?? Are you people sure there is enough fan base there to support a team?

Look I'm a hockey fan, but if I'm out there on vacation and I have a choice of buying a ticket and going to a game, or sitting in a nice comfy chair in the sports book section of the casino, watching the Canadiens on one of the many big screens while a great looking cocktail waitress brings me complimentary drinks, guess what I'm doing?? My point is that there is a TON of competition for entertainment dollars in Las Vegas and I'm not sure a hockey team could compete.....

Thanks.....I don't understand why some people get angry when I bring up what happened in Hartford. Anyway, I also don't understand how some people decide what they think the next cities should be , either by relocation, expansion whatever. Las Vegas? KC? Milwaukee? Hasn't the NHL made a joke of themselves by placing teams in cities where there is no desire or demand for the sport enough already? Can we not see the mistakes that have been made by putting teams in Nashville, Atlanta, Phoenix. Its time to get back to basics and look at the cities that are hockey markets such as Winnipeg, Quebec, Hamilton and Hartford. Some people here have this pipe dream that the NHL will someday be to the States what hockey is in Canada....IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN...NEVER. I am so tired of the reasoning that the NHL needs to expand in non-traditional markets in order for it to catch on. Las Vegas would not work, Kansas City has no desire for the NHL but would rather have the NBA, Milwaukee I never heard mentioned before until now on this thread......watch what happens to this NHL in the next 5 years or so.....people watching teams relocate again will make the NHL more of a laughing stock then it already is.

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  • 2 weeks later...

looks like i read it wrong, my bad.

i dont know why youre on a canadiens forum bitching about the whalers and the hurricanes. its not that we dont understand, its that we just dont care.

and the thing with teams that bleed money - eventually the owners will get fed up and teams WILL start moving, even if slowly.

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looks like i read it wrong, my bad.

i dont know why youre on a canadiens forum bitching about the whalers and the hurricanes. its not that we dont understand, its that we just dont care.

and the thing with teams that bleed money - eventually the owners will get fed up and teams WILL start moving, even if slowly.

• Material that contains vulgar, obscene or indecent language or images

youre not supposed to swear.

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Geez. You guys just cant wait to take away a team from anywhere else just to make sure a Canadian market that already failed, gets one. Heck, you want to take away Tampa or Carolina's team. Teams that both have done something in the last 5 years that a Canadian team hasnt done in 16, and thats won a cup. Also the fact, that not only do the local's enjoy these teams, but so do both Northern US and Canadian snow birds enjoy during the winter months.

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<and because I cant edit>

I love how you want to take away the California teams. 2 of which are always strong contenders for the cup each year. The kings have been bad awhile, but Ive never heard of them not being able to draw a crowd or pay the rent.

And if, considering the size of it, California shouldnt have 3 teams, then why should Ontario? Oh right, because its Canada. I forgot how that makes the difference.

The islanders are in a tough market with the Rangers and Devils so close.

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<and because I cant edit>

I love how you want to take away the California teams. 2 of which are always strong contenders for the cup each year. The kings have been bad awhile, but Ive never heard of them not being able to draw a crowd or pay the rent.

And if, considering the size of it, California shouldnt have 3 teams, then why should Ontario? Oh right, because its Canada. I forgot how that makes the difference.

The islanders are in a tough market with the Rangers and Devils so close.

it does make a difference because in canada the game will sell out and money will be made un like atlanta florida tampa where their biggest crowds are lik 11000 people while in canada every games is almost sold out

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it does make a difference because in canada the game will sell out and money will be made un like atlanta florida tampa where their biggest crowds are lik 11000 people while in canada every games is almost sold out

Seriously... think. It wasn't even a decade ago when numerous Canadian teams were on a financial brink with Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa all looking like they were going to be relocated and Montreal wasn't anything to be proud of either. Tampa post-lockout has been one of the attendance leaders going over 20k per game in 2006, 19 876 in 2007 and 18 692 on 2008. The other two teams you mention hav been perennial losers, and wins= attendance, this is how pro sports works.

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Then why did most of the citys you named, lose their teams to begin with?

I wont argue on Atlanta, because they never ice a good team. This was their 2nd shot at it, and still arent bringing anything in. I also wont argue with Vegas or KC. I think both would be a dumb move. But Tampa and Homestead both sell good numbers every game. Maybe a little less with the economy as it is, but still sell well year after year. And as I said, even if not for the locals, but all the snowbirds that come down to escape the weather.

And before you bring up the team's records, how empty was Montreal's arena during the late 90's and early 2000's when we couldnt buy a winning season.

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Then why did most of the citys you named, lose their teams to begin with?

And before you bring up the team's records, how empty was Montreal's arena during the late 90's and early 2000's when we couldnt buy a winning season.

Since moving to the Bell Centre ( Molson Centre), the Habs lowest average attendance was 18,990 in 01-02. Besides that the average attendance has topped 20,000 every year. Yes the stands were empty but the tickets were sold. I have my suspicions that various attendance figures for Florida and Tampa do not accurately reflect actual 'butts in the seats'.

I guess Canadian angst boils down to the fact that the NHL seems to favour American clubs, American broadcasters, and American expansion.

Some examples:

1) perceived lack of a sincere effort to keep the Jets and Nords in Canada. The NHL sure fights tooth and nail to not allow a club to move to Canada.

2) Ron Joyce's bid for a franchise that was quashed by the NHL (probably the Leafs and the Sabres. )

joyce had :

# An NHL-calibre Arena (Copps Coliseum)

# 20 year lease in place.

# Local owner (Ron Joyce)

# Owner with deep pockets (Owner of Tim Hortons)

# Minimum of 10,000 season tickets sold (14,000 sold in 24 hours)

# Market that would support hockey team (50 mile radius, 5 million people, though the market would be shared by Toronto and Buffalo) and over 2 million people in a 25 mile radius which does not include the GTA and Western New York population numbers (1990 figures).

# Corporate support (70 corporate companies committed to purchasing 70 corporate boxes for a minimum of 5 years)

while Ottawa and Tampa didn't even have a building.

3) Not allowing the Blues to be moved to Saskatoon. The NHL almost folded the team rather than allow them to move to Saskatchewan.Some guffaw at the concept of a city of 160,000 having an NHL team, but the NFL works in Green Bay which has 101,000 in the city and a metro of 260,000. Lambeau never has an empty seat.

As well I think this years Islander preseason games sold out in about 24 hours. As well there were no territorial rights to contend with.

4) I guarantee that Phoenix will move in 5 years if Reisendork gets the team to another American market of course. I also believe that the Islanders will move to KC (rubber stamped by the NHL ) if the Lighthouse Project is rejected.

I think the topic of this thread has moved away from its original intent.

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Should be Hartford and Quebec... no other sites in the US really show interest in hockey. The love just isnt there.

You look at Northern US/Canadian cities... they love hockey. You look at the Southern US and it is football. Bring the southern frontier further north and the NHL will have fewer struggling franchises.

Also, it would have been good to lose the deadbeat owners a few years before the new CBA but its probably too late for that now...

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Should be Hartford and Quebec... no other sites in the US really show interest in hockey. The love just isnt there.

You look at Northern US/Canadian cities... they love hockey. You look at the Southern US and it is football. Bring the southern frontier further north and the NHL will have fewer struggling franchises.

Also, it would have been good to lose the deadbeat owners a few years before the new CBA but its probably too late for that now...

Even Hockeytown has trouble filling its seats. And thats with them dominating for most of the last decade or so. And while they were losing, Chicago was at the bottom when it came to butts in seats as well.

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The next US city to have an NHL team will be Kansas City. They have a brand new rink (owned by one of Buttman's buddies - the LA Kings owner) sitting empty. Either by relocation (likely) or via expansion.

Other cities I feel are likely (in order)

-Las Vegas (buttman's plan coming to fruition)

-Houston

-Seattle/Portland

-Hartford

I believe that buttman's plan is to have all those cities before ever allowing more Canadian teams...not because he's anti-canadian or pro-american but because more Canadian teams = more revenue so much more that the Cap goes up too high for many american based teams (Florida, Atlanta) to pay the baseline cap.

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The next US city to get an NHL team should have interest in hockey and a good sized media market. Seattle is the 13th largest media market (Phoenix is 12th).

Seattle has a long hockey history having won the Stanley Cup in 1917 defeating the Canadiens. The Metropolitans were the first team outside of Canada to do so. The metros also played for the stanley cup in 1919 and should have won it due to the Canadiens forfeiting. The 1919 series was canceled with no winner.

They also had some very good semi-pro minor league teams in the Pacific coast league and the Western Hockey League. ( teams like the ironmen, totems, and americans).

Seattle has had a WHL junior hockey team since the late 1970s ( breakers / thunderbirds ). They hosted the memorial cup in 1992.

At the grassroots level, Seattle has a good minor hockey program and various rec leagues etc. The people in Seattle know the game and that is half the battle.

If the NHL were smart, they would realign the pacific division -- LA, SJ, Ducks, vancouver and Seattle. The division name would make sense since all the teams would play in the pacific time zone. Vancouver and Seattle would have a close rivalry and I'm sure 'nuckleheads would travel down the I-5 for games.

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I don't think Seattle has a suitable arena though, I could be 100% wrong.

Unfortunately, the Key Arena is unsuitable for hockey. The Thunderbirds have moved to a smaller arena in Kent ( a suburb) because of the poor sight lines at other issues at the key. Note: many NHL franchises have started without a suitable arena in place.

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Just thinking about Seattle again... The Tacoma dome might be a viable option. I know the WHL Tacoma Rockets (now Kelowna Rockets) played their home games their and had crowds of 15,000+. The NBA Sonics also played a season there when key arena was undergoing renos.

The Tacoma Dome has a lot of character. It has a wooden dome with excellent acoustics.

From their website/ history section:

The Tacoma Dome hosted the 1990 Goodwill Games, the NCAA Women's Basketball Final Four in 1988 & 1989 and the 1987 United States Figure Skating Championships. Six sports franchises have called the Tacoma Dome home. They were:

* Tacoma Stars Soccer (1984-1992)

* Tacoma Express Football (1990)

* Tacoma Rockets Hockey (1991-1995)

* Seattle Sounders Soccer (1994)

* Seattle Sonics Basketball (1994-1995)

* Tacoma Sabercats Hockey (1997-2002)

For those that don't know, Tacoma is about a 1/2 hour south of Seattle.

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