roy_133 Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 It's the fact he's trending upwards that has some of us excited. He was drafted in the 2nd round, so the fact he's pretty much a lock for a starting-6 spot on a legitimate playoff team is a sign he's exceeding the expectations most GMs/scouts had of him as recently as 3 years ago. There's many reasons why that could be. Perhaps it's because he talks as good a game as he talks, eh trains harder than the other player. That was the case for Tomas Plekanec, a guy who went from 3rd round draft choice to 1b center... I'm excited/like Subban too but I was replying to those talking about him in the same breath as hall of fame players which IMO is incredibly extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourtrax Posted July 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 I'm excited/like Subban too but I was replying to those talking about him in the same breath as hall of fame players which IMO is incredibly extreme. That's what I was getting at. The kid has barely played 20 games at the NHL level and suddenly we're comparing him to Robinson, Lidstrom, and Pronger? Come now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 I'm excited/like Subban too but I was replying to those talking about him in the same breath as hall of fame players which IMO is incredibly extreme. OK - OK ... fair enough. This happens to so many prospects that I've learned to tune this out as background noise, I didn't even realize you weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 It's the fact he's trending upwards that has some of us excited. He was drafted in the 2nd round, so the fact he's pretty much a lock for a starting-6 spot on a legitimate playoff team I'd say partially legitimate. is a sign he's exceeding the expectations most GMs/scouts had of him as recently as 3 years ago. At the time he was drafted he was known as a boom/bust pick who if he fixed his defense could be a player. On the other hand, when I think of Subban, I sometimes think of Luke Schenn. The Maple Leaves prospect had a phenomenal first year... he played excellent shut down defense whenever I watched them play. He stumbled in his second year. I expect Subban to have some troubles. They are also quite different players at different stages in their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 They are also quite different players at different stages in their careers. Yup, supposedly the shutdown duties are harder, so at least if Subban has defensive troubles, he'll get sporadic confidence boosts from racking up assists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go4It Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 That's what I was getting at. The kid has barely played 20 games at the NHL level and suddenly we're comparing him to Robinson, Lidstrom, and Pronger? Come now. A perception can never be wrong, if people are percieving subban one way, with all due respect, who are you to tell them they're wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 A perception can never be wrong, if people are percieving subban one way, with all due respect, who are you to tell them they're wrong? People perceived Hitler as an independent revolutionist who was not afraid to go against the grain. Who are we to tell them they're wrong?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 People perceived Hitler as an independent revolutionist who was not afraid to go against the grain. Who are we to tell them they're wrong?!! I don't expect Subban to be that important :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go4It Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 That's what I was getting at. The kid has barely played 20 games at the NHL level and suddenly we're comparing him to Robinson, Lidstrom, and Pronger? Come now. A perception can never be wrong, if a person is perceiving something one way, even if it isn't so, nobody can tell them that they're wrong, because it is a perception. However, who's to say that the 20 games isn't a sneak preview of what is to come? I Find it very offensive when people laugh about ones perception and act like they're right. So with all due respect I ask you, who are you to tell them that their preception is wrong? Lefluer struggled the first couple of years in the NHL. Subban hasn't. What is to come? Will subban be as great as Lefluer? Maybe, but that is not the comparison in question. However, he was used as an example. Maybe subban will be the next robinson. I think being thrown into the fire as subban was and responding as well is a good indicator that he could be as great as Robinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 I think Weep is pursuing a graduate degree in literature. There's a serious smackdown coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteenIsThaFuture Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 I think Weep is pursuing a graduate degree in literature. There's a serious smackdown coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourtrax Posted July 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 A perception can never be wrong, if a person is perceiving something one way, even if it isn't so, nobody can tell them that they're wrong, because it is a perception. However, who's to say that the 20 games isn't a sneak preview of what is to come? We can use this relativist stuff to justify any position. If that suits you, go right ahead. PK Subban is secretly the next king of France. That's my perception and according to you, one's perceptions are never wrong. However, to me, the purpose of a good message board is to allow people to come together in intelligent, rational, and respectful debate. If your only rebuttal is invoking the right to any perception, no matter how far-fetched, perhaps you and I should agree to disagree on this topic. I Find it very offensive when people laugh about ones perception and act like they're right. I'm not laughing at anyone. Not sure where that came from. Lefluer struggled the first couple of years in the NHL. Subban hasn't. What is to come? Will subban be as great as Lefluer? Maybe, but that is not the comparison in question. However, he was used as an example. Maybe subban will be the next robinson. I think being thrown into the fire as subban was and responding as well is a good indicator that he could be as great as Robinson. But what is the justification for comparing him to Robinson? To me it amounts to nothing more than a desperate need to convince ourselves that we have stars in the making any time a prospect has a hot streak. I haven't seen a single scout compare Subban to Larry Robinson. Maybe he will turn out to be as great as Robinson, who knows? But nothing in PK's history suggests that will be the case. And that's leaving aside the fact that PK doesn't even have Robinson's physical attributes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die-Hard-Hab Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 PK's talent is undeniable and although i wouldnt compare him to Robinson i can see how they could make that comparison but PK is just never going to be as big and tough as robinson but i think they make the comparison because of the offensive upside. PK will be one of the most important players on our team next year especially while markov is out. Pk came in the playoffs in a pressure situation and he was one of our best defensman. I dont think PK is like anyone becuase of the way he plays so its hard to draw any comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 But what is the justification for comparing him to Robinson? To me it amounts to nothing more than a desperate need to convince ourselves that we have stars in the making any time a prospect has a hot streak. I haven't seen a single scout compare Subban to Larry Robinson. Maybe he will turn out to be as great as Robinson, who knows? But nothing in PK's history suggests that will be the case. And that's leaving aside the fact that PK doesn't even have Robinson's physical attributes. Just to set the record straight, I was never trying to compare PK to Robinson, only saying that I think he could be the Habs best D talent since Robinson. They obviously have different physical attributes and skillsets. What my comment would indicate was that Robinson is the most recent benchmark to which we can compare greatness at the D position and that I think in the long run PK will be better than other defencemen since (Schneider, Markov, etc.). I could be wrong. It is easier to say that we are getting over-hyped about a prospect but some prospects really do pan out and my feeling is that PK does, just as yours is that he will end up being solid but not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathradio Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 And maybe score 30 or 40 points a season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstStar Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Just to set the record straight, I was never trying to compare PK to Robinson, only saying that I think he could be the Habs best D talent since Robinson. They obviously have different physical attributes and skillsets. What my comment would indicate was that Robinson is the most recent benchmark to which we can compare greatness at the D position and that I think in the long run PK will be better than other defencemen since (Schneider, Markov, etc.). I could be wrong. It is easier to say that we are getting over-hyped about a prospect but some prospects really do pan out and my feeling is that PK does, just as yours is that he will end up being solid but not great. I think you're forgetting we've had some good d-men since Robinson... Chelios comes to mind, so does Schneider (young Scheidy), Desjardins, Markov, etc... Subban sure has a lot of promise and I can't wait to see him mature, but it's unfair to say we haven't had a good d-man since Robinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 I think you're forgetting we've had some good d-men since Robinson... Chelios comes to mind, so does Schneider (young Scheidy), Desjardins, Markov, etc... Subban sure has a lot of promise and I can't wait to see him mature, but it's unfair to say we haven't had a good d-man since Robinson. Not denying we didn't have some good D men, but I just believe Subban has the potential to be better than them. At the stage of his career that he's at, it's rare to see a D man with such poise. Chelly was a great defenceman in this league, although a large part of his career was spent elsewhere. Schneider was good but to me lacked the skating ability of Subban. It's hard to compare D men of different teams/eras, so everyone will have their own opinion, that's all I'm offering here is my own. I believe by the time we have seen Subban play his career as a Hab, will be considered better than those other ones. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. There's no wrong or right obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuniorSTLB Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 He's made a lot of silly mistakes during the play-offs. Give him a few years and he will show what a Subbanator can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamesgal1 Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Subban doesn't compare to any of those players. He projects as a good offensive-minded top-four d-man who can move the puck and be an asset on the power play. It is highly unlikely that he will turn into a legitimate no. 1 defenseman such as Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, or Gonchar at his peak, and comparing PK with Larry Robinson is just placing unrealistic expectations on his shoulders. Honestly, he had one good stretch of playoff games and we've already canonized him. Year after year, we do the same thing to our prospects, then cast them down when they fail to meet these lofty expectations. One good stretch ..........HMMMMMMMMMMMM P.K. Subban has been named the winner of the President's Award, given to an AHL player in recognition of his outstanding accomplishments in the past year. In his first professional season, the Hamilton Bulldogs defenceman was named a first team AHL All-Star and earned a spot on the AHL All-Rookie Team after recording 18 goals, 35 assists and a plus-46 rating in 77 game Subban captured his first gold medal with Team Canada at the 2008 World Junior Championships, where Canada defeated Sweden in overtime of the gold medal game. In 2009, Subban was named to the team for a second straight year, along with fellow returnees John Tavares, Zach Boychuk and Thomas Hickey. He helped team Canada to its fifth straight gold medal and second consecutive gold medal win against Sweden in the final. With 3 goals and 6 assists, Subban was selected to the Tournament All-Star Team along with tournament MVP and close friend John Tavares. 14th among all deeman in the playoffs in scoring, he only played 14 games, he has not even played one full season yet. We have not had a deeman in this organization, at such a young age who has had an impact on the game like he has at such a young age since I can remember. Even Larry Robinson number s and accomplishments at a similair age were not really as good as PK. I can understand the optimism, he has been a star at every level, even as a kid playing at the most important time of the year against grown man. I can understand fully why fans are so optimistic about what Subban may accomplish he has given no reason to think differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean-Counting-Hab Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 People perceived Hitler as an independent revolutionist who was not afraid to go against the grain. Who are we to tell them they're wrong?!! It's probably too early to tell, but PK will be better than Hitler IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerbob7501 Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 It's probably too early to tell, but PK will be better than Hitler IMO. at this stage in his developement we have no idea what PK will accomplish. But his leadership skills and how he can give interviews with natural ease is a little concerning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooser_mtl Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 It's probably too early to tell, but PK will be better than Hitler IMO. OMG That is the funniest thing i've ever heard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy_133 Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 One good stretch ..........HMMMMMMMMMMMM P.K. Subban has been named the winner of the President's Award, given to an AHL player in recognition of his outstanding accomplishments in the past year. In his first professional season, the Hamilton Bulldogs defenceman was named a first team AHL All-Star and earned a spot on the AHL All-Rookie Team after recording 18 goals, 35 assists and a plus-46 rating in 77 game Subban captured his first gold medal with Team Canada at the 2008 World Junior Championships, where Canada defeated Sweden in overtime of the gold medal game. In 2009, Subban was named to the team for a second straight year, along with fellow returnees John Tavares, Zach Boychuk and Thomas Hickey. He helped team Canada to its fifth straight gold medal and second consecutive gold medal win against Sweden in the final. With 3 goals and 6 assists, Subban was selected to the Tournament All-Star Team along with tournament MVP and close friend John Tavares. 14th among all deeman in the playoffs in scoring, he only played 14 games, he has not even played one full season yet. We have not had a deeman in this organization, at such a young age who has had an impact on the game like he has at such a young age since I can remember. Even Larry Robinson number s and accomplishments at a similair age were not really as good as PK. I can understand the optimism, he has been a star at every level, even as a kid playing at the most important time of the year against grown man. I can understand fully why fans are so optimistic about what Subban may accomplish he has given no reason to think differently. Great argument, sounds a lot like what we were hearing in 2008 about a certain goalie. Point A to B with prospects is a long road. A lot can happen. I like PK, I think he's going to be a good player but it's probably going to be a pretty long road. I have no doubt he'll contribute year 1 but he'll likely be frustrating, especially in his own end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Great argument, sounds a lot like what we were hearing in 2008 about a certain goalie. Point A to B with prospects is a long road. A lot can happen. I like PK, I think he's going to be a good player but it's probably going to be a pretty long road. I have no doubt he'll contribute year 1 but he'll likely be frustrating, especially in his own end. Actually, although PK has a tendency to pinch in and join the rush, when he is in his own end, I find he played very positionally-sound hockey last year. He protects the puck very well with his body, he takes the man and finishes checks, and he moves the puck as well as any D man outside of Markov. Wtahc the footage of him against Ovechkin or Crosby and you'll see just how well he played them one on one, albeit over a short number of games. He needs to develop a bit more discipline and judgment in terms of jumping up, but I don't think his defence will be an issue. He isn't Mike Green, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy_133 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Actually, although PK has a tendency to pinch in and join the rush, when he is in his own end, I find he played very positionally-sound hockey last year. He protects the puck very well with his body, he takes the man and finishes checks, and he moves the puck as well as any D man outside of Markov. Wtahc the footage of him against Ovechkin or Crosby and you'll see just how well he played them one on one, albeit over a short number of games. He needs to develop a bit more discipline and judgment in terms of jumping up, but I don't think his defence will be an issue. He isn't Mike Green, that's for sure. You listed his strengths, protects the puck well (he's very strong with the puck for the most part) so that includes moving the puck, of course. His physicality is OK, adequate, nothing special but he's not Markov either. He will fill out and get stronger so it's possible that improves, although it won't ever be his game. He's mistake prone though, at times he makes terrible decisions with the puck, he tries to do too much, he gets caught up ice (his speed helps make that a bit less of a concern but to a point) and quite often he blew defensive zone coverage after his call up. I understand his strengths, I do like him and believe he can contribute in the right role immediately but the people overrating him now are just building him and themselves up likely for the same let down they had with Carey. It's a tough position to learn, especially defensively at the NHL level and in Jacques Martin's system. Guys with his raw tools can get by but really best case scenario he's a PP guy and a 2nd pairing guy 5 on 5 because of his puck moving this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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