Big-Ted Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 You listed his strengths, protects the puck well (he's very strong with the puck for the most part) so that includes moving the puck, of course. His physicality is OK, adequate, nothing special but he's not Markov either. He will fill out and get stronger so it's possible that improves, although it won't ever be his game. He's mistake prone though, at times he makes terrible decisions with the puck, he tries to do too much, he gets caught up ice (his speed helps make that a bit less of a concern but to a point) and quite often he blew defensive zone coverage after his call up. I understand his strengths, I do like him and believe he can contribute in the right role immediately but the people overrating him now are just building him and themselves up likely for the same let down they had with Carey. It's a tough position to learn, especially defensively at the NHL level and in Jacques Martin's system. Guys with his raw tools can get by but really best case scenario he's a PP guy and a 2nd pairing guy 5 on 5 because of his puck moving this season. Sure, I agree that this year his role will likely be to be a #3 or 4 guy but I don't doubt he will get big PP minutes and be on the ice in the dying moments of games we are trailing. His D is far from being great, but I still think he is ahead of guys like Komisarek, OB, or even Markov WHEN THEY BROKE INTO THE LEAGUE. He has as much defensive ability as any of those guys did and those guys were in some cases defensive specialists. As I said, his trying to do too much will improve with age. I don't expect him to lead the team this year, but I think he will easily be a #1 defenceman in 2-3 years and I would rather take the chance and wrap him up in the next couple of years to a long-term contract rather than wait for him to establish himself and ask for a 6 million dollar contract. Everything's a risk but I would take that chance. Look at the teams that are succeeding... Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, Philly... they all have young key guys under contract for several years and are building the extra pieces around that. With the cap, you can't wait for guys to become great and waste all your cap space paying them, you need to take that chance and lock up your drafted talent. Looking at the Habs, for me, that means first and foremost Subban and then guys like Price, Eller, Cammalleri, etc... you can disagree on the names, but as a GM you need to decide who your core guys are going to be for the next 5-6 years and build around that. For me, PK is the closest thing we have to being a guy we can build a winner around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathradio Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 We mustn't wait too long to lock him up for the long term but not at too high a price. How much would you expect his cap hit to be 3 years down the road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfrancis Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Whoa whoa whoa... Are people seriously saying that Subban will be better than Markov? Just when I thought I've heard it all. Subban will likely become a good 3-4 D-Man, playing on the #1 PP, and possibly on the #2 PK. Please don't do to Subban what we did to Price, which is extrapolating on his results in Junior and the AHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catt-_mtlc Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Whoa whoa whoa... Are people seriously saying that Subban will be better than Markov? Just when I thought I've heard it all. Subban will likely become a good 3-4 D-Man, playing on the #1 PP, and possibly on the #2 PK. Please don't do to Subban what we did to Price, which is extrapolating on his results in Junior and the AHL. Exactly, after goalies defenseman take the longest time to develop. We got a small taste of what he can do during the playoffs and it was really exciting but I think people need to be a little bit more realistic in their expectations. It will take him a few years at least to become a great d-man but I really believe he has a bright future ahead of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRazor67 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 That's what I was getting at. The kid has barely played 20 games at the NHL level and suddenly we're comparing him to Robinson, Lidstrom, and Pronger? Come now. You bet those are the fellows to measure PK by. We've had our eye on this guy way before he "barely played" those 20 odd games you speak of, and he's way beyond anyone in his league. The NHL might not be his overnight, but make no mistake, this is NHL #1. If he plays his career as a Hab, there will be Cup contentions......a dynasty perhaps. Yes.. he has to grow, yeah.. he'll mess up. That's where the saying"Rookie mistake" comes from. PP goals, offence awarness, speed and agility, he will produce this season way higher then other rookie Defencemen with his same 20 or so games in the NHL. He didn't enter Adult Hockey and need to adjust, he came in and set the new standard that all future AHL rookie defencemen will be measured by. I don't see any reason why he won't do just that in the NHL. Ofcorse he has to earnthat status, season after season, like the greats you mentioned did. Ofcorse he might not measre up, but untill he at least waivers from that path......Those are the fellows to measure PK by...and who can say, maybe pass them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRazor67 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Subban will likely become a good 3-4 D-Man, playing on the #1 PP, and possibly on the #2 PK. Please don't do to Subban what we did to Price, which is extrapolating on his results in Junior and the AHL. What's that suposed to mean? That Price doesn't perform at NHL level? ...no, you didn't mean that... Oh, that if you outperform everyone in the AHL you will obviosly struggle in the NHL? ...no that can't be it either...just kidding Until further notice, look out Markov! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRazor67 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 You too Patrick Roy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Look at Tyler Myers last year in Buffalo or Carlsson in Washington. Those are guys who were touted quite highly by their organizations and they did well. I see no reason why PK can't succeed. carey came into the league with the attitude that he deserved to win and BG fed into his ego. I think we finally saw him realize he had to work harder after BG left. PK seems to have a better attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamesgal1 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Great argument, sounds a lot like what we were hearing in 2008 about a certain goalie. Point A to B with prospects is a long road. A lot can happen. I like PK, I think he's going to be a good player but it's probably going to be a pretty long road. I have no doubt he'll contribute year 1 but he'll likely be frustrating, especially in his own end. Not from me if your referring to price. I doubt Subban will be any more frustrating then any of our other dee. When he does make a mistake though, everbody will say he is only a kid. If in his third season he is not one of our best dee i will eat my shorts. Unlike a goalie that some people talked about in 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy_133 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Not from me if your referring to price. I doubt Subban will be any more frustrating then any of our other dee. When he does make a mistake though, everbody will say he is only a kid. If in his third season he is not one of our best dee i will eat my shorts. Unlike a goalie that some people talked about in 2008. I was just talking about Price in terms of all his pre NHL awards and great debut in the NHL, similar the stuff you mentioned for Subban. So it's nice to have those awards but it doesn't guarantee an easy transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRazor67 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 I was just talking about Price in terms of all his pre NHL awards and great debut in the NHL, similar the stuff you mentioned for Subban. So it's nice to have those awards but it doesn't guarantee an easy transition. His transition can be forshadowed by his call up last season. How many times has a rookie D been assigned to compete with Ovechkin and the League leading Caps, Crosby and the cup Champion Pens, Richards and the lastest installment of the Broadstreet bullies. He delivered the offence that Markov's injury left us lacking. It takes years to reach the top, we all agree, but when you start up the highest of mountians, as PK Subban clearly is, the view at the peak is spectatular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamesgal1 Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 His transition can be forshadowed by his call up last season. How many times has a rookie D been assigned to compete with Ovechkin and the League leading Caps, Crosby and the cup Champion Pens, Richards and the lastest installment of the Broadstreet bullies. He delivered the offence that Markov's injury left us lacking. It takes years to reach the top, we all agree, but when you start up the highest of mountians, as PK Subban clearly is, the view at the peak is spectatular. +1, he has never faltered, he has never wavered, he was thrown to the wolves to face some of the best offensive players in the game today and he succeeded. He was second in scoring for Montreal Dee, 1 point behind Hammerlik, in 5 less games, he was third in total ice time per game, only behind markov and josh georges, he had the only plus at plus 2 of any deeman that average over 16 plus minutes per game. all this playing against players like crosby, ovechkin, malkin, richards, pronger...oh ya baby.. unlike a goalie we know he got to play a full season in the AHL to develop his game and boy did he ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfrancis Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 This was a 14 game sample size, come on. Pouliot scored like 11 goals in 14 games earlier, does that mean he can score 70 goals a year, and that he's our best forward since Richard? Get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 Love the fact that he came out to prospects camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1IscottieI1I Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 This was a 14 game sample size, come on. Pouliot scored like 11 goals in 14 games earlier, does that mean he can score 70 goals a year, and that he's our best forward since Richard? Get real. there is a big difference between 14 games in the middle of the season and 14 playoff games.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafs_295_ca Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 i agree pk will be good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habcup Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 Whoa whoa whoa... Are people seriously saying that Subban will be better than Markov? Just when I thought I've heard it all. Subban will likely become a good 3-4 D-Man, playing on the #1 PP, and possibly on the #2 PK. Please don't do to Subban what we did to Price, which is extrapolating on his results in Junior and the AHL. I am not sure anyone can say what his celling will be. He could be a #1 dman all the way to a #4 dman. He could be better than Markov and maybe not. None of these statements are a stretch. We all saw how he delivered in the playoffs playing top minutes. He can only improve on that performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 This was a 14 game sample size, come on. Pouliot scored like 11 goals in 14 games earlier, does that mean he can score 70 goals a year, and that he's our best forward since Richard? Get real. there is a big difference between 14 games in the middle of the season and 14 playoff games.... Not only that, but Subban was deemed one of the best players in the AHL last year whereas Pouliot has never lived up to his potential from when he was drafted. Pouliot's 14 games were more the anomaly compared to the rest of his career whereas PK has been fairly consistently good to date, albeit it mostly at a minor-league level of competition. But I'd be more optimistic abotu PK than Pouliot... that being said, I certainly think Pouliot is capable of being a 30-goal scorer if he stays in the top 6 for the whole year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRazor67 Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 Not only that, but Subban was deemed one of the best players in the AHL last year whereas Pouliot has never lived up to his potential from when he was drafted. Pouliot's 14 games were more the anomaly compared to the rest of his career whereas PK has been fairly consistently good to date, albeit it mostly at a minor-league level of competition. But I'd be more optimistic abotu PK than Pouliot... that being said, I certainly think Pouliot is capable of being a 30-goal scorer if he stays in the top 6 for the whole year. +1 But to be fair to Pouliot lets acknowledge that he was coming off an injury, and dealt a new team and that so many other of his teammates also had under producing years ( AK and Mara most notibly ) Let's also reflect a coaches first year, J Martin's Defence based systems that had to be absorbed by a squad that was new to each other too, and that fact that Pouliot sure did more then Gui did (until after the move). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-Ted Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 +1 But to be fair to Pouliot lets acknowledge that he was coming off an injury, and dealt a new team and that so many other of his teammates also had under producing years ( AK and Mara most notibly ) Let's also reflect a coaches first year, J Martin's Defence based systems that had to be absorbed by a squad that was new to each other too, and that fact that Pouliot sure did more then Gui did (until after the move). I would definitely prefer to have Pouliot than Lats. Pouliot has more natural skills... You could use his injury and new teammates as an excuse except that his best games were just after he arrived. His slump just appeared to be more of a mental block than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_Champion Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 High Hopes that are Realistic: Can Subban compete for the Calder trophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest habs1952 Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 High Hopes that are Realistic: Can Subban compete for the Calder trophy? Yes he can but I'd like to see a race between the Subban thread and the Price thread to see who will have the most pages by the end of the year. I believe if Subban has less than 10 games played in the NHL's regular season he is still eligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carey_Price Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 How low can you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfrancis Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 How low can you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafs_rock_go_mccabe Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 How low can you go? Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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