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Is It Time To Get An Enforcer?


kinot-1

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Toughness and grit have been missing from Montreal hockey for so long that people have forgotten what the concept is all about.

It is simple. Two lines of top 6 forwards whose job is to score goals. One line of hard nosed players who are a checking line but can score (like Darche and Poulliot). One line.....the traditional 4th line that has been missing here for years and years.....with tough guys who take care of any business that goes on during the game. White, Moen and Bonneau. Bonneau can skate 4 minutes a game. You can double shift another forward to get Moen and White more ice time.

That was exactly the lineups we used to have when we won the Cup. Two scoring lines, one checking line and one tough line. Somewhere along the line the powers that be decided to get away from this concept. And its been a long time since we last hoisted the Cup. And based on the softness of today's team, it wont happen this year either.

What is the point of having a line of enforcers when they aren't even on the ice at the same time as our "top 6 forwards whose job is to score goals"? The only thing that a "traditional 4th line" would accomplish would be making our bottom 3 even more inept than they already are. Of course the other team won't go after our guys when the 4th line is on the ice, they'll pummel us when our scoring lines are out there and your prized 4th line will be a complete waste of roster spots that ends up sitting on the bench for 55 minutes out of every game.

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What is the point of having a line of enforcers when they aren't even on the ice at the same time as our "top 6 forwards whose job is to score goals"? The only thing that a "traditional 4th line" would accomplish would be making our bottom 3 even more inept than they already are. Of course the other team won't go after our guys when the 4th line is on the ice, they'll pummel us when our scoring lines are out there and your prized 4th line will be a complete waste of roster spots that ends up sitting on the bench for 55 minutes out of every game.

They can change on the fly,,,,to get out there when it's necessary.

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I'm not old enough to remember the games of the 70s but since when is it common knowledge that our skill is superior to that of the Bruins? I'd say the Bruins have clearly the better roster, they have great scoring depth, Chara logging 30 minutes per night on D, and they clearly have the better goalie tandem right now. They've also finished the past two seasons ahead of us in the standings and they'll likely do the same this year, I don't see how our team can be considered more skilled in any way and thanks to Brian Burke, they have great young prospects waiting in the pipeline. Frankly, I'd trade our roster with theirs any day of the week.

I disagree with you 100%. If you took the entire Bruin offense and had them play under Martin's system and then took the entire Canadiens offense and had them play for Julien, Julien's team of ex-Canadiens would still outscore the ex-Bruins.

Why? I tallied the number of times that we and the Bruins either dumped the puck in or skated/passed the puck in.

Canadiens dumped in almost 70%. Bruins skated/passed into the offensive zone 65% of the time.

Julien has a more productive offensive system than Martin. But that is for a discussion on another thread........

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I disagree with you 100%. If you took the entire Bruin offense and had them play under Martin's system and then took the entire Canadiens offense and had them play for Julien, Julien's team of ex-Canadiens would still outscore the ex-Bruins.

Why? I tallied the number of times that we and the Bruins either dumped the puck in or skated/passed the puck in.

Canadiens dumped in almost 70%. Bruins skated/passed into the offensive zone 65% of the time.

Julien has a more productive offensive system than Martin. But that is for a discussion on another thread........

Not sure where you got those numbers from or what they're even supposed to mean... Canadiens dumped in almost 70% of what? When? The Bruins skated into which offensive zone 65% of the time? And this assertion miraculously leads you to the assumption that our team coached by Julien would outscore the Bruins coached by Martin? Sorry, you lost me somewhere :blink:

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What is the point of having a line of enforcers when they aren't even on the ice at the same time as our "top 6 forwards whose job is to score goals"? The only thing that a "traditional 4th line" would accomplish would be making our bottom 3 even more inept than they already are. Of course the other team won't go after our guys when the 4th line is on the ice, they'll pummel us when our scoring lines are out there and your prized 4th line will be a complete waste of roster spots that ends up sitting on the bench for 55 minutes out of every game.

You may be right there not on the ice the same time as our skilled players. But they can be put out for a shift or two against the bruins top line or the flyers top line and make some nasty with thier top players. This is about evening things up a bit. Its like the bully at school he doesn't go away until someone as big and nasty or bigger and nastier comes along....Were not talking about a larague who asks u to fight...were talking about a player who is just nasty and takes no prisnors...I sure would have liked to end the game agianst the bruins with the likes of Colton Orr, Chris Neil, and Some other nasty player we could get for basically nothing.....

JM martin only plays three lines most night so what if the fourth line only plays 3 or 4 minutes a game... You get a player like neil he can play a regular shift on the third line...

Here is what i would like before the trade deadline, Colton Orr, Chris Neil, A big tough winger who can score 20 plus goals, does not have to be a fighter, but some who goes to the net and plays hard on the boards....our trad bait for that winger would be Ak and a pick.

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You may be right there not on the ice the same time as our skilled players. But they can be put out for a shift or two against the bruins top line or the flyers top line and make some nasty with thier top players. This is about evening things up a bit. Its like the bully at school he doesn't go away until someone as big and nasty or bigger and nastier comes along....Were not talking about a larague who asks u to fight...were talking about a player who is just nasty and takes no prisnors...I sure would have liked to end the game agianst the bruins with the likes of Colton Orr, Chris Neil, and Some other nasty player we could get for basically nothing.....

JM martin only plays three lines most night so what if the fourth line only plays 3 or 4 minutes a game... You get a player like neil he can play a regular shift on the third line...

Here is what i would like before the trade deadline, Colton Orr, Chris Neil, A big tough winger who can score 20 plus goals, does not have to be a fighter, but some who goes to the net and plays hard on the boards....our trad bait for that winger would be Ak and a pick.

Clarkson, Boll or Crombeen would fill that role. Neil is way overpaid and can't go with the big guys anymore. Orr is concussed and I think the end is near as he has been knocked out twice this year.

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Clarkson, Boll or Crombeen would fill that role. Neil is way overpaid and can't go with the big guys anymore. Orr is concussed and I think the end is near as he has been knocked out twice this year.

Clarkson would be my favorite as well, the guy is getting regular icetime with the Devils and is a decent hockey player on top of that. The problem is he's even more expensive than Neil though. Crombeen would be an option too, hadn't thought about him at all. Not sure if he's available though.

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Clarkson would be my favorite as well, the guy is getting regular icetime with the Devils and is a decent hockey player on top of that. The problem is he's even more expensive than Neil though. Crombeen would be an option too, hadn't thought about him at all. Not sure if he's available though.

Yeah, but I would say Clarkson is a more complete player (his plus minus is brutal this year but I think that is a team thing). Still doubt the Devils will be moving anybody with their recent 20 game run though. I I was wishing they got Crombeen out of the Blues in the Halak trade

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Yeah, but I would say Clarkson is a more complete player (his plus minus is brutal this year but I think that is a team thing). Still doubt the Devils will be moving anybody with their recent 20 game run though. I I was wishing they got Crombeen out of the Blues in the Halak trade

Agreed, he's definitely the more complete player and he'd be a great addition for sure, just thinking about next year though (cap-wise) and I'm not sure if we can get our hands on either of them without overpaying :mellow:

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Yeah, but I would say Clarkson is a more complete player (his plus minus is brutal this year but I think that is a team thing). Still doubt the Devils will be moving anybody with their recent 20 game run though. I I was wishing they got Crombeen out of the Blues in the Halak trade

One problem with Crombeen. He loses most of his fights. He is similar to Stortini.

To make statements, we need a player who is capable of beating.....not just fighting....the Thorntons and Lucics and Rupps and Engellands in the League.

Clarkson would be a great addition to the team. He could easily handle the guys like Campbell, Ference, McQuaid etc.

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One problem with Crombeen. He loses most of his fights. He is similar to Stortini.

Does he? I haven't seen many St.Louis Blues games this year but if hockeyfights.com can be considered a credible source, he has won the vast majority of his tilts this year.

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Does he? I haven't seen many St.Louis Blues games this year but if hockeyfights.com can be considered a credible source, he has won the vast majority of his tilts this year.

Hockey Fights a credible source? LOL For video of the fights. That place is full of Homers. The Bruin players hardly ever lose a fight according to the fan voting there. :lol:

Looking at his list of fights, he beat Lapierre ;) , Segal from Dallas, Jay Harrison, Nick Boynton, Ryan O'Byrne :) , Dorsett, Adams, Dowell, and Shane O'Brien (OK, that's impressive). He lost to Ryan Clowe, Mark Stuart and Jared Boll.

For fighting middleweights, he would be good. He's not so good against the big tough guys. Moen even beat him in a fight last season. Thornton would destroy Crombeen.

With all that said, I would not complain if we got him though.

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I'm not old enough to remember the games of the 70s but since when is it common knowledge that our skill is superior to that of the Bruins? I'd say the Bruins have clearly the better roster, they have great scoring depth, Chara logging 30 minutes per night on D, and they clearly have the better goalie tandem right now. They've also finished the past two seasons ahead of us in the standings and they'll likely do the same this year, I don't see how our team can be considered more skilled in any way and thanks to Brian Burke, they have great young prospects waiting in the pipeline. Frankly, I'd trade our roster with theirs any day of the week.

Well there were even some Bruin players admitting they would have to play rough and tumble with us so what does this have to say about our skill level

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Well even There were even some Bruin players admitting they would have to play rough and tumble with us so what does this have to say about our skill level

Dunno, we beat them three times in a row. Guess they had to try a different approach but this doesn't change the fact that I'd trade our roster for the Bruins' roster any day of the week ;)

Our forward core of Plekanec, Gomez, Gionta and Cammalleri is rather on the short side and they all play a similar style that doesn't match up very well against Bergeron, Krejci, Horton and Lucic. Then you have their supporting cast of Ryder, Wheeler, Seguin, Recchi and Marchand which is probably also stronger than ours of Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Pouliot, Eller and Desharnais right now, although that may be debatable. Then there's their lower lines where they clearly outmatch our guys and that's that. I'd also say they got the better defence, especially when we're without Markov and Gorges but then we'd also need to take the healthy Marc Savard factor into account.

Just my opinion, I think their lineup has a better mix of skill and toughness and they're a really stingy defensive team too.

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Dunno, we beat them three times in a row. Guess they had to try a different approach but this doesn't change the fact that I'd trade our roster for the Bruins' roster any day of the week ;)

Our forward core of Plekanec, Gomez, Gionta and Cammalleri is rather on the short side and they all play a similar style that doesn't match up very well against Bergeron, Krejci, Horton and Lucic. Then you have their supporting cast of Ryder, Wheeler, Seguin, Recchi and Marchand which is probably also stronger than ours of Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Pouliot, Eller and Desharnais right now, although that may be debatable. Then there's their lower lines where they clearly outmatch our guys and that's that. I'd also say they got the better defence, especially when we're without Markov and Gorges but then we'd also need to take the healthy Marc Savard factor into account.

Just my opinion, I think their lineup has a better mix of skill and toughness and they're a really stingy defensive team too.

We don't have a single player on Chara's planet and that's a massive difference between us and them really. I agree though, they're a better team and that's fine but we match up well against them and have for a while, other than 08-09. The biggest factor is Tim Thomas is no where near himself against us for whatever reason. Even when they beat us last time he wasn't Tim Thomas. It's weird but we just have the guy's number.

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We don't have a single player on Chara's planet and that's a massive difference between us and them really. I agree though, they're a better team and that's fine but we match up well against them and have for a while, other than 08-09. The biggest factor is Tim Thomas is no where near himself against us for whatever reason. Even when they beat us last time he wasn't Tim Thomas. It's weird but we just have the guy's number.

It certainly helps when you have guys like Chara or Pronger who are capable of playing their 30 minutes per night in all game situations including shut-down duties against the opponent's best players, while we gotta rely on defence by commitee to make up for our defensive core's obvious lack of quality.

You're right about Thomas, for some reason he can't get it together against us. Same goes for Lundqvist, we don't seem to have that much trouble scoring against strong goalies (minus Brodeur). Unfortunately it's a totally different story when we face second or third string goalies in the playoffs though :P

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The answer to this thread should be endless links to archived Georges Laraques threads and complaints, followed by threads from the previous season to Laraques signing entitled, "Do We Need an Enforcer", then followed with an ecstatic /end thread

Laraque is not the only "enforcer" out there. Even so, TexasHab repeatedly mentioned that he really didn't stick up for his teammates, he just did staged fights.

An enforcer, according to the definition at http://www.firstbasesports.com/hockey_glossary.html, says that "he has the job of protecting his teammates from harm". Since Laraque did not stick up for his teammates nearly enough, he's not an enforcer per se. Even "skill-heavy" teams like Washington has an enforcer.

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The three most recent Stanley Cup champs had...

Adam Burrish

Eric Godard

Aaron Downey

Yep, Cup champs who deemed a roster spot worth it for an enforcer during the regular season. Of course, they also had some more energy guys along with that.

If you're talking about Aaron Downey playing for the Red Wings, then all I can do is chuckle since he didn't play a single post-season game with the Red Wings. I'm sure other teams were shaking in their boots with him all the way down in Grand Rapids or up in the press box. :lol:

Eric Godard also never played a single playoff game with the Penguins.

Adam Burish did dress in a number of Blackhawks playoff games but had minimal impact to the point that he was kept out of all but one game of the series against the Flyers. He also no longer is with the Blackhawks, so that just goes to show how much he was valued.

These examples don't really speak to anything.

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The answer to this thread should be endless links to archived Georges Laraques threads and complaints, followed by threads from the previous season to Laraques signing entitled, "Do We Need an Enforcer", then followed with an ecstatic /end thread

laraque was not an enforcer, he rarely even threw a check with habs. Seemed disinterested. An enforcer does not have to fight, he has to stick up for teammates and must be able to hit to change the attitude of the other team. The habs have little in the way of slowing down a team coming into our zone except PK who will take a run at a man at the blue line often leading to scoring chances. If we had some others willing to throw a hard check maybe he would not be so aggresive at the blue line.

you can look at a player like lucic.

He would not fight laraque but intimidates and fights when he knows he can win. He throws his body around and beats on the weak ( the whole habs team). But when BGL challenged him on several occasions he deferred, you do not have to be dumb I guess to be an enforcer

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laraque was not an enforcer, he rarely even threw a check with habs. Seemed disinterested. An enforcer does not have to fight, he has to stick up for teammates and must be able to hit to change the attitude of the other team. The habs have little in the way of slowing down a team coming into our zone except PK who will take a run at a man at the blue line often leading to scoring chances. If we had some others willing to throw a hard check maybe he would not be so aggresive at the blue line.

you can look at a player like lucic.

He would not fight laraque but intimidates and fights when he knows he can win. He throws his body around and beats on the weak ( the whole habs team). But when BGL challenged him on several occasions he deferred, you do not have to be dumb I guess to be an enforcer

Yeah, you're right. Next time Lucic is on waivers we should claim him.

Any team would love Lucic or a player like that but they're incredibly hard to find. With the instigator rule protecting your teammates is pretty hard, thus if you have someone who can fight he absolutely has to be a legitimate player as well. This whole enforcer crap is being overblown by 1 game though and really, it was Boston's bigger skilled forwards that were giving us trouble (in 1 game, despite the fact that we always beat them). I agree we can use some bulk, not even for fighting but for a better boards/net presence but that's an organization thing and it takes a while to develop/bring in.

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If you're talking about Aaron Downey playing for the Red Wings, then all I can do is chuckle since he didn't play a single post-season game with the Red Wings. I'm sure other teams were shaking in their boots with him all the way down in Grand Rapids or up in the press box. :lol:

Eric Godard also never played a single playoff game with the Penguins.

Adam Burish did dress in a number of Blackhawks playoff games but had minimal impact to the point that he was kept out of all but one game of the series against the Flyers. He also no longer is with the Blackhawks, so that just goes to show how much he was valued.

These examples don't really speak to anything.

They still committed a roster spot to them. Those teams deemed an enforcer worth a roster spot. Not hard to understand.

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They still committed a roster spot to them. Those teams deemed an enforcer worth a roster spot. Not hard to understand.

Agree.

This was from HIO.......

Chris Nilan said ""It disgusted me to see that ... a goalie getting hit and nothing happening."

"The thing that I didn't like, all game long (Shawn) Thornton was running (P. K.) Subban, which is totally unacceptable," (Mario) Tremblay fumed. "When the other team goes after your best players and you don't respond, it's a (edit) shame."

Both Nilan and Tremblay believe the Canadiens will have problems in the playoffs if they don't address their lack of toughness before the Feb. 28 trade deadline.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Habs+bemoan+lack+grit/4270288/story.html#ixzz1Dm5b8TV4

The mention of the League having an instigator rule stopped the Bruins from goonish play and fighting how?

The instigator rule stopped the Islanders from paying back the Penguins how?

If someone runs or takes liberties with a star player like Price or Gionta or Pleks, then a two minute penalty is nothing compared to letting ALL OF YOUR STAR PLAYERS consistently get pounded night after night without retribution.

I think Nilan and Tremblay know a little bit about playing hockey and winning hockey games.

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I think Nilan and Tremblay know a little bit about playing hockey and winning hockey games.

If that's going to be your lame cop out then I think Jacques Martin knows a whole lot more about coaching then you, me, Nilan or Tremblay so how about we just leave it at that?

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