Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

2011-2012 State Of The Habs


Recommended Posts

I'm starting this thread now that the 2010-2011 season is over. Please moderators close the 2010-2011 State of the Habs that I started and let's begin anew with this thread.

Personally, I think the Habs have a good core of young players on the team and coming up. We still have some guys who just aren't getting done, either due to lack of effort, talent or age. Vote in my poll above - and I even have two options for some of the above - where you can pick some numbers from the poll, or all the above.

Please everyone post here for the 2011-2012 Habs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First thing would be to shore up the defense. To effectively play in Martin's system, we need mobile defensemen who, while they can be reliable in their own zone, can make a good first pass and have solid offensive instincts.

1) Resign Markov.

2) Sign Christian Erhoff or Joni Pitkanen.

3) Get a taker for Gomez.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the defense I think we should acquire a top 4 defensive defensmen to be partnered with Markov.We could pair Subban with Hamrlik and on the 3rd pairing,we should put Wiz with Gorges.We also have to find a way to get rid of Spacek for salary.We could give some guys like Pyatt,Moen,Sopel,Gill and some others.

3) Get a taker for Gomez.

Not possible,and when his contract ends then I want to resign him,of corse not as much as salary we are giving him now though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the defense I think we should acquire a top 4 defensive defensmen to be partnered with Markov.We could pair Subban with Hamrlik and on the 3rd pairing,we should put Wiz with Gorges.We also have to find a way to get rid of Spacek for salary.We could give some guys like Pyatt,Moen,Sopel,Gill and some others.

Not possible,and when his contract ends then I want to resign him,of corse not as much as salary we are giving him now though.

I think PK is way too good to be a mere 3rd pairing D. He should be on the second pairing at the very least. I also think that Hammer may not be the best partner for him.

I think that we should consider Bieksa first before purusing Wiz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the defense I think we should acquire a top 4 defensive defensmen to be partnered with Markov.We could pair Subban with Hamrlik and on the 3rd pairing,we should put Wiz with Gorges.We also have to find a way to get rid of Spacek for salary.We could give some guys like Pyatt,Moen,Sopel,Gill and some others.

Not possible,and when his contract ends then I want to resign him,of corse not as much as salary we are giving him now though.

why would you want to resign him. by that time leblanc eller dd and pleks will all most likely be up in the nhl for us

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Habs have a solid group of forwards with a good blend of young talent and veterans.Our defence has a good core group that barring injuries can carry the team.Drafting more defencemen for the future is imperative,Justin Sefton,David Musil,Jamie Oleksiak,Scott Mayfield,Scott Harrington are but a few that Pierre Gauthier might be interested in.Goaltending looks to be a strong suit for the Habs as usual,if I was drafting my 1st pick would be Khokhlachev if Oleksiak is gone.Sefton would be a good 3rd round pick if available.With Leblanc,Kristo,Avtsin,Quailer,Conboy and Berger coming the only 1st line possibility is Avtsin.The future looks bright,with Gauthier at the helm the Habs course is assured.(Stanley Cup 25 in sight)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm starting this thread now that the 2010-2011 season is over. Please moderators close the 2010-2011 State of the Habs that I started and let's begin anew with this thread.

Personally, I think the Habs have a good core of young players on the team and coming up. We still have some guys who just aren't getting done, either due to lack of effort, talent or age. Vote in my poll above - and I even have two options for some of the above - where you can pick some numbers from the poll, or all the above.

Please everyone post here for the 2011-2012 Habs.

HI LARRY:

great post YES i agree i also think we need some goal mouth-crashers you now BIG-GUYS!!!

well i think we are on the right trake with the signing of 20 year old BERGER from oshawa

at 6'4 and 200lb he will report to HAMILTON BULL-DOGS next year and plays forward

now thats a start !!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALL THE BEST SEE YOU IN SEPT. HAVE A GREAT SUMMER INOW OUR HABS WILL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've got a nice sound core of young talent in Price, Subban, Pacioretty (assuming he gets back to 100%), Desharnais, Eller, and even Weber, mixed in with good 'young veterans' Plekanec, Cammalleri, and Gorges. Gionta has exceeded expectations so far and even Kostitsyn adds size and physicality to our top six. Our glaring needs are:

  1. 1-2 younger, more durable top-four d-men who can move the puck effectively
  2. 1 productive top-six center, whether that's Gomez getting back to the 60-point mark or Gauthier somehow finding a way to trade him and free up cap to sign someone else
  3. 1 no. 1 d-man who can stay healthy for the season (Markie, the ball's in your court)

I don't think we're that far off. We have an elite goalie, a good nucleus of players around which to build, a good systems coach, and a GM who's shown he isn't afraid to make tough but necessary decisions (e.g. the Halak trade). Luck is a huge factor in any long-term franchise success and with a bit of it we could potentially be a conference leader in a few years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest habs1952

First thing would be to shore up the defense. To effectively play in Martin's system, we need mobile defensemen who, while they can be reliable in their own zone, can make a good first pass and have solid offensive instincts.

1) Resign Markov.

2) Sign Christian Erhoff or Joni Pitkanen.

3) Get a taker for Gomez.

As much as Gomez disappointed me this year I'd give him another chance next year with Patches and Gio. I can't get past the fact that playing with Moen for a good chunk of the season and playoffs really took away offensive options for that line. To me, that was basically a 2 man line until and after Patches got injured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think PK is way too good to be a mere 3rd pairing D. He should be on the second pairing at the very least. I also think that Hammer may not be the best partner for him.

I think that we should consider Bieksa first before purusing Wiz.

I actually meant that Subban and Hamrlik should be our 2nd pairing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as Gomez disappointed me this year I'd give him another chance next year with Patches and Gio. I can't get past the fact that playing with Moen for a good chunk of the season and playoffs really took away offensive options for that line. To me, that was basically a 2 man line until and after Patches got injured.

That's what I want to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I voted for some of the above.

Right now, I think the coaches and management are good where they are at, but I'd like to see an upgrade in the scouting so we do better in the middle and late rounds of the draft.

We haven't had a true sniper since the days of Stephane Richer, and nobody who could light it up consistently since the days of Lafleur and Shutt.

I think it's about time to move some aging defensemen and forwards. I think they need to say goodbye to Spacek and maybe even Gill. Hamerlik proved that he could still play some minutes, but not as a top D-man. I don't see Markov ever being a top D-man again because of his injuries. Better to play him in one of the other combos so he can be protected a little more. Subban has shown he can run the D and next year, I won't be surprised if he becomes the team's number 1 defenseman, if not one of the best in the entire NHL. I for one think AK did not show up in the playoffs, and I'm not the only one with this opinion - Sergio Momesso was very critical of him on the radio broadcasts. Gomez is way too overpaid for what he has brought to the table, but if there was any way they could cut his salary, he may be a useful 3rd or 4th line center. Gionta and Cammy need someone in the middle who can get them the puck. Pleks has also been a stud this season, and could benefit from a couple of real good wingers who can score.

I for one would like to see an experienced backup for Price, to take some of the heat off him. Auld did not do a whole lot of playing, and maybe it's time to bring in someone more experienced and can play in big games when Price needs a rest. I would rather have them both sharp but rested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

State of the Habs: Still edge of your seat, never completely confident they can be that elite team with a killer instinct? Sure seems that way to me

Would the Habs be good enough with a more solid back-end on "D"? Maybe

Keepers on defense... Subban, Gorges and probably Markov... Weber? Other than that... meh!

With Pacioretty healthy and if he has not terminally lost his mojo it could be a start up front. I like Desharnais but wish he was 6'4" and 220LBS. Eller shows great promise an could depose Gomez as the number two center perhaps. Pleks, Cammalleri and Gionta need better support. Pouliot is a sad result. Kostitsyn is stil an enigma. The bottom six needs to be more imposing.

The coaching, though successful to a point may need to change its philosophy.

IMO the Habs are still far away from a team that can seriously be considered elite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've got a nice sound core of young talent in Price, Subban, Pacioretty (assuming he gets back to 100%), Desharnais, Eller, and even Weber, mixed in with good 'young veterans' Plekanec, Cammalleri, and Gorges. Gionta has exceeded expectations so far and even Kostitsyn adds size and physicality to our top six. Our glaring needs are:

  1. 1-2 younger, more durable top-four d-men who can move the puck effectively
  2. 1 productive top-six center, whether that's Gomez getting back to the 60-point mark or Gauthier somehow finding a way to trade him and free up cap to sign someone else
  3. 1 no. 1 d-man who can stay healthy for the season (Markie, the ball's in your court)

I don't think we're that far off. We have an elite goalie, a good nucleus of players around which to build, a good systems coach, and a GM who's shown he isn't afraid to make tough but necessary decisions (e.g. the Halak trade). Luck is a huge factor in any long-term franchise success and with a bit of it we could potentially be a conference leader in a few years.

Agreed, you hit all the big points for me, the D overhaul is the biggest thing. It needs to get younger. Spacek is already nearly a guarantee to be back so it makes it even harder to accept just 1 of Gill or Hammer being back, even in a more limited role. We then have 2 35+ year olds already as well as a 30+, injury prone Markov. There's 3 of our top 6 with age/injury/durability concerns. Gorges is IMO, a reliable 4-5 guy and his durability, despite the injury isn't a concern so that's fine, Subban is a horse which helps. We certainly need at least 1 more guy in his physical prime who hopefully brings a more physical and defensive game to pair with Markov.

I'd like to see another forward added to the core, a top 6 guy ideally. I like the concept of Simon Gagne as a nice risk to take. I know his year wasn't anything special but he was back to being reasonably healthy and I think, despite how it seems like a good idea in theory, Tampa is a bad place to go rebuild value, Tanguay had a similarly down year there before bouncing back in Calgary. I think Simon actually brings a high ceiling and he has the ability to finish, which we need and it certainly wouldn't cost anything absurd to sign him nor would it be a significant term. We do have some money to play with but we have to be smart, Carey is an RFA after next year and so is Subban, so the organization may want to look into locking those 2 up and going out and spending like a drunken sailor on long term deals could make that tricky.

The other thing is, picks must be retained. We've traded away WAY too many high picks in the last 3-4 years, to the point our farm system is probably among the worst in the league at this point. It's not going to hurt us right away because we've graduated so many good players in the last couple of years and they're still young and cheap so we certainly have time to replenish but it has to start now. Here's just a quick look at picks in the top 2 rounds traded since 2008-09,

1st 2008

2nd 2009

2nd 2009

2nd 2010

2nd 2010

2nd 2011

2nd 2011

These are from the trades for, Tanguay, Schneider, Lang, Wiz, Moore and moving up to pick Tinordi. Obviously not all of these picks originally belonged to us, we got the Leafs pick (32nd overall in 2010) for Grabovski but we flipped it for Lang, we got a compensation pick for not signing David Fischer but we traded it for Wiz but that's not even the point, that's 7 top 60 picks in a very short time frame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of our options right now, if I had my pick...

Markov

Gorges

Subban

Hamrlik(with less minutes)

Gill

Wiz

Open

On the note of defense I also think Weber shouldn't be on defense. I think that he would be much better as a winger and a point man on the powerplay. Spacek is getting old, and IMO suffering from "defense Alzeimer's" for lack of a better term. I am not completely confident that Markov can stay healthy, so I think we will need a good defenseman to split time between legs or be a healthy scratch. I like the prospect of Joni Pitkanen.

Also, as far as backups go, Auld's a keeper. He was great this season in his 10 games or so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First thing would be to shore up the defense. To effectively play in Martin's system, we need mobile defensemen who, while they can be reliable in their own zone, can make a good first pass and have solid offensive instincts.

1) Resign Markov.

2) Sign Christian Erhoff or Joni Pitkanen.

3) Get a taker for Gomez.

1) very likely to happen. However if Markov wants the same kind of contract as the last one no thanks

2) Pitkanen is someone i could see us going after. Call it a hunch

3) Unless we give up a core player or some draft picks i can't see anyone wanting Gomez. In a way it may work out for us. If Gomez goes on a tear and we have are at the bottom of the standings we may be able to find someone to take him. If he goes on a tear and were sitting in the middle of the standings we can keep him for a playoff run. So in a way, unless he has a worst season next year, Gomez could be an asset to us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed, you hit all the big points for me, the D overhaul is the biggest thing. It needs to get younger. Spacek is already nearly a guarantee to be back so it makes it even harder to accept just 1 of Gill or Hammer being back, even in a more limited role. We then have 2 35+ year olds already as well as a 30+, injury prone Markov. There's 3 of our top 6 with age/injury/durability concerns. Gorges is IMO, a reliable 4-5 guy and his durability, despite the injury isn't a concern so that's fine, Subban is a horse which helps. We certainly need at least 1 more guy in his physical prime who hopefully brings a more physical and defensive game to pair with Markov.

Yep. Assuming we re-sign Hammer and Spacek stays, we have:

Markov (age 32, injury-prone) / ?

Hamrlik (37) / Subban (22)

Spacek (37) / Gorges (26)

Weber (23)

We absolutely need that first-pairing signing to be in his physical prime and a durable, hard-hitting guy who plays a simple game and makes a good first pass. We don't need offense, we have plenty of that, we just need someone to lock down our zone and take some of the wear and tear off Markov, who needs to be put in the best position possible to have a healthy productive year.

I'd like to see another forward added to the core, a top 6 guy ideally. I like the concept of Simon Gagne as a nice risk to take. I know his year wasn't anything special but he was back to being reasonably healthy and I think, despite how it seems like a good idea in theory, Tampa is a bad place to go rebuild value, Tanguay had a similarly down year there before bouncing back in Calgary. I think Simon actually brings a high ceiling and he has the ability to finish, which we need and it certainly wouldn't cost anything absurd to sign him nor would it be a significant term. We do have some money to play with but we have to be smart, Carey is an RFA after next year and so is Subban, so the organization may want to look into locking those 2 up and going out and spending like a drunken sailor on long term deals could make that tricky.

I'm intrigued by Gagné, but how much do you pay for him, and also, where he does fit in? In theory, our top six is already set with Cammalleri, Plekanec, Kostitsyn (if re-signed, and I think there's value to re-signing him), Gomez, Gionta, and Pacioretty. Signing Gagné either means bumping Pacioretty down, which I don't want if he's back at 100%, not bringing back Kostitsyn (possibility), or trading a winger, and despite my frustration with Cammalleri this year, he does provide value, he's in his physical prime, and he's an excellent playoff performer.

The other thing is, picks must be retained. We've traded away WAY too many high picks in the last 3-4 years, to the point our farm system is probably among the worst in the league at this point. It's not going to hurt us right away because we've graduated so many good players in the last couple of years and they're still young and cheap so we certainly have time to replenish but it has to start now. Here's just a quick look at picks in the top 2 rounds traded since 2008-09,

1st 2008

2nd 2009

2nd 2009

2nd 2010

2nd 2010

2nd 2011

2nd 2011

These are from the trades for, Tanguay, Schneider, Lang, Wiz, Moore and moving up to pick Tinordi. Obviously not all of these picks originally belonged to us, we got the Leafs pick (32nd overall in 2010) for Grabovski but we flipped it for Lang, we got a compensation pick for not signing David Fischer but we traded it for Wiz but that's not even the point, that's 7 top 60 picks in a very short time frame.

Agreed. We have spent far too many picks in recent years and it's time to draw in our horns. We need to replenish the draft pool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The coaching, though successful to a point may need to change its philosophy.

No disrespect to you, HHN, but I feel that Martin has such a reputation as a defensive-minded coach that he gets a bad rap about adapting. Looking at the season as a whole, I think he actually did a terrific job of changing his philosophy to suit the personnel he had available at any given time. In the past, when Markov went down, we went down and never got back up, because like roy noted, we'd try to run our same old system (including the PP) but with less skilled players who couldn't make it work. This season, we modified our PP strategy to work the down-low give-and-go and set up point shots -- there was no looking for the cross-seam pass, because there was no Markov to make that pass with any regularity. Our breakouts changed to suit our personnel: when we had better puck-movers on the ice, we utilized the whole zone, including quick five-foot passes from the board d-man to the center in the slot to help us restart the attack. When we had worse puck-movers on the ice, we used the board clearance a lot. The pluggers dumped and chased; the skill players were allowed to gain the zone themselves or dump and chase according to how the play was developing. When a bunch of our d-men got injured and we had to play guys like Mara and Sopel, we started collapsing to the net and taking away the crease because we had big, tall d-men with long wingspans who could use reach to win those particular battles even if they couldn't skate. When the regular penalty-killers started to wear, we used offensive guys like Cammalleri to help out on the PK and take some of the load off Gionta, Plekanec, et al.

Jacques also balanced the need to let player work out of slumps with the need to light fires under them. He gave Kostitsyn a good long stint on the Plekanec line, but when Andrei failed to deliver, he demoted him to playing with Eller and Moen, which sparked immediate positive results and which also let Jacques bump Kostitsyn back up to the Plekanec line so that he could be an effective contributor again. He saw Pacioretty's success with Gomez and Gionta and just ran with it; when Patches went down, he did the only thing he could, in the absence of a legitimate scoring replacement (and let's not bring up Pouliot, please -- he was clearly not a viable option because he failed miserably any time he was given any kind of chance to prove himself; that's 100% on him and has nothing to do with the coaches): he used pluggers like Darche and Moen to squeeze some kind of production out of the line. Darche succeeded up to a point, but the line faltered a few games into the playoffs, so Martin switched Moen in because there really was no other option. Maybe you could argue that Pouliot should have gotten the chance but Pouliot had shown zero, I mean absolutely nothing in the month or so prior to his benching so really we're talking about a hope and a prayer, not some 100-point guy Jacques left in the pressbox for no particular reason.

In short, I'm not sure you'd find very many other head coaches in this league who could have done or did do a better job of adapting in the face of injuries, player slumps, etc. Whether or not Jacques changes his philosophy next season depends entirely IMO on the personnel he has to work with. If you give him a 40-goal sniper, he'll turn that sniper loose, believe me. I saw a lot of Martin when he was coaching the Senators and he has no trouble unleashing the dogs if said dogs can actually score. When the old Senators had no talent, he had them trapping their way to wins, but as the team grew and guys like Alfredsson, Hossa, Havlat, and Chara started to emerge as stars, he modified the system, to the point where they were one of the top scoring teams in the league. He has no trouble adapting, from where I'm standing -- he just needs the horses so that adapting allows us to win games. There's no point trying to play firewagon hockey with a popgun offense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No disrespect to you, HHN, but I feel that Martin has such a reputation as a defensive-minded coach that he gets a bad rap about adapting. Looking at the season as a whole, I think he actually did a terrific job of changing his philosophy to suit the personnel he had available at any given time. In the past, when Markov went down, we went down and never got back up, because like roy noted, we'd try to run our same old system (including the PP) but with less skilled players who couldn't make it work. This season, we modified our PP strategy to work the down-low give-and-go and set up point shots -- there was no looking for the cross-seam pass, because there was no Markov to make that pass with any regularity. Our breakouts changed to suit our personnel: when we had better puck-movers on the ice, we utilized the whole zone, including quick five-foot passes from the board d-man to the center in the slot to help us restart the attack. When we had worse puck-movers on the ice, we used the board clearance a lot. The pluggers dumped and chased; the skill players were allowed to gain the zone themselves or dump and chase according to how the play was developing. When a bunch of our d-men got injured and we had to play guys like Mara and Sopel, we started collapsing to the net and taking away the crease because we had big, tall d-men with long wingspans who could use reach to win those particular battles even if they couldn't skate. When the regular penalty-killers started to wear, we used offensive guys like Cammalleri to help out on the PK and take some of the load off Gionta, Plekanec, et al.

Jacques also balanced the need to let player work out of slumps with the need to light fires under them. He gave Kostitsyn a good long stint on the Plekanec line, but when Andrei failed to deliver, he demoted him to playing with Eller and Moen, which sparked immediate positive results and which also let Jacques bump Kostitsyn back up to the Plekanec line so that he could be an effective contributor again. He saw Pacioretty's success with Gomez and Gionta and just ran with it; when Patches went down, he did the only thing he could, in the absence of a legitimate scoring replacement (and let's not bring up Pouliot, please -- he was clearly not a viable option because he failed miserably any time he was given any kind of chance to prove himself; that's 100% on him and has nothing to do with the coaches): he used pluggers like Darche and Moen to squeeze some kind of production out of the line. Darche succeeded up to a point, but the line faltered a few games into the playoffs, so Martin switched Moen in because there really was no other option. Maybe you could argue that Pouliot should have gotten the chance but Pouliot had shown zero, I mean absolutely nothing in the month or so prior to his benching so really we're talking about a hope and a prayer, not some 100-point guy Jacques left in the pressbox for no particular reason.

In short, I'm not sure you'd find very many other head coaches in this league who could have done or did do a better job of adapting in the face of injuries, player slumps, etc. Whether or not Jacques changes his philosophy next season depends entirely IMO on the personnel he has to work with. If you give him a 40-goal sniper, he'll turn that sniper loose, believe me. I saw a lot of Martin when he was coaching the Senators and he has no trouble unleashing the dogs if said dogs can actually score. When the old Senators had no talent, he had them trapping their way to wins, but as the team grew and guys like Alfredsson, Hossa, Havlat, and Chara started to emerge as stars, he modified the system, to the point where they were one of the top scoring teams in the league. He has no trouble adapting, from where I'm standing -- he just needs the horses so that adapting allows us to win games. There's no point trying to play firewagon hockey with a popgun offense.

No doubt... JM did an admirable job finding ways to win as much as the team did under changing circumstance due to injury and personnel changes. Is this not what a coach is supposed to do in any case? He also changed personnel himself at times which may have been counter-productive IMO. I'm not sure his "hockey" philosophy was changed that much however.

The balance you refer to for slumps and fire etc. was not used with all players evenly... IMO there was a definite imbalance in terms of his philosophy in that respect. He can change that.

I have no doubt he can institute a change in philosophy based on the build of the team but I do not agree that it depends entirely on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm intrigued by Gagné, but how much do you pay for him, and also, where he does fit in? In theory, our top six is already set with Cammalleri, Plekanec, Kostitsyn (if re-signed, and I think there's value to re-signing him), Gomez, Gionta, and Pacioretty. Signing Gagné either means bumping Pacioretty down, which I don't want if he's back at 100%, not bringing back Kostitsyn (possibility), or trading a winger, and despite my frustration with Cammalleri this year, he does provide value, he's in his physical prime, and he's an excellent playoff performer.

Well I'd explore cost, coming off a down year though I think it would be reasonable and there was talk that he'd have liked to come to Montreal last year when Philly was dealing him. As for Kostitsyn, it comes down to cost as well, he's still awfully inconsistent but his improved all around game did make that easier to swallow. My absolute ideal situation had him on a line with Eller, where rather than being a go to guy, he's a skilled, physical 3rd line winger, who scores 5 on 5 at a nice rate and can play a more important role if need be.

If we're going to score by committee, we simply need a larger committee. If it's not Gagne, it could be a guy like Laich, or a guy who would play 3rd line with Eller instead of bumping AK down. Again, it all comes down to cost of course but something like,

Gagne Plekanec Cammalleri

Pacioretty Gomez Gionta

Kostitsyn Eller _______ (whoever)

really appeals to me, and then a tough shut down line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...