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#53 Ryan White 2011-2012


ColRouleBleu

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Does anybody else think Ryan might have a hard time cracking the lineup by the time he gets back? He has not even been skating.

Weber's value keeps rising and Emelin/Diaz will lockdown one spot maybe 2 between them on defence within the next month. I have an inkling that JM is going to be forced to keep Weber in the lineup at either forward or defense most of the season. This is not a slight to Ryan, in fact, I really like him but getting into JM's mind, he seems like the kinda coach that would value a PP specialist/7th d-man instead of a rugged 4th liner. Assuming Cammy and Spacek are both ready prior to White, I'm not sure where he'd fit in.

He's pretty overrated around here IMO so yeah, if we're totally healthy he definitely isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12.

You have to figure that Plekanec, Cole, Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Kostitsyn and Moen will and should definitely play over him. That leaves 2 spots for Darche, Weber, Engqvist and White and that says nothing of the fact that the organization is clearly interested in adding a veteran 4th line center as witnessed by the Betts waiver claim but I'll ignore that for arguments sake. Of those 4, Darche would seemingly have 1 of the 2 spots and that means White needs to clearly bring more than what Weber can bring on the PP and than Engqvist can bring as a center that organization actually feels can play center in the NHL and can take some of the PK load off Plekanec.

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He's pretty overrated around here IMO so yeah, if we're totally healthy he definitely isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12.

You have to figure that Plekanec, Cole, Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Kostitsyn and Moen will and should definitely play over him. That leaves 2 spots for Darche, Weber, Engqvist and White and that says nothing of the fact that the organization is clearly interested in adding a veteran 4th line center as witnessed by the Betts waiver claim but I'll ignore that for arguments sake. Of those 4, Darche would seemingly have 1 of the 2 spots and that means White needs to clearly bring more than what Weber can bring on the PP and than Engqvist can bring as a center that organization actually feels can play center in the NHL and can take some of the PK load off Plekanec.

You got exactly where I was going with this. The longer Markov is out the more valuable Weber becomes. Where his value is is irrelevant to some extent but relevant to White. Your top 11 forwards are a lock in my mind as well. The 12th spot will be between Weber, White and Enqvist.

Assuming without Markov/Camppoli, the D reverts to this:

Gill - Subban

Gorges - Diaz

Spacek - Emelin

I don't see how JM would sit Weber's canon for White's guns. It wouldn't stick to his philosophy of special teams above all. If he plays White, the second PP unit is Diaz plus a choice of Spacek or Emelin. Spatcho can't hit the net unfortunately and Emelin is even more unproven than Weber, especially on the PP. To me, it seems that JM would choose Weber over Whit in sticking with his philosophy. Add to this, I am ignoring the chance that Enqvist becomes good at face-offs/PK and further jams up this spot.

I think White's injury puts him in serious jeopardy of being a reserve until either Campoli or Markov is back, even if he recovers well before them.

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i understand the points some of you make but having weber on the fourth line is a horrible idea what can he do their? if were gonna convert him he has to be a top nine to be of any use to us white however fits the mold perfectly, hes our mike zigmanus when he played for pit

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He's pretty overrated around here IMO so yeah, if we're totally healthy he definitely isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12.

You have to figure that Plekanec, Cole, Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Kostitsyn and Moen will and should definitely play over him. That leaves 2 spots for Darche, Weber, Engqvist and White and that says nothing of the fact that the organization is clearly interested in adding a veteran 4th line center as witnessed by the Betts waiver claim but I'll ignore that for arguments sake. Of those 4, Darche would seemingly have 1 of the 2 spots and that means White needs to clearly bring more than what Weber can bring on the PP and than Engqvist can bring as a center that organization actually feels can play center in the NHL and can take some of the PK load off Plekanec.

I can give you a few things White does that the majority of habs don't do :

He delivers body checks, can fight if need to and plays with intensity/grit, which most don't have here. Those are all things Engvist didn't do (not to mention Engvist is barely faster than Hal Gill).

Jacques Martin can use other players in PK, just most of the time he doesn't. We saw Eller last game on the PK, that's a good thing and he can take some mins off Pleky there. Darche, Cammy, Gio, Moen, Gomez (when he's back) also play on PK. Nokelainen will probably see PK time. So I think we have plenty of options already. White played the PK last year with Pyatt and whatnot, so he can take plenty of minutes there as well.

He fits perfectly on a 4th line. He brings energy to the line and the team.

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He is not overated for his role, if people were calling him a top six forward he would be overated, but most people reliaze he is a bootm six forward. But he adds a piece to the puzzle that we do not have,a young brash hard working forward, who can play bottom six minutes, who can enerigize a bench a bench with a big hit, or drop the gloves and defend himself, and not hurt the team, because he does not no the games. He is young and can still grow his game also.

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I can give you a few things White does that the majority of habs don't do :

He delivers body checks, can fight if need to and plays with intensity/grit, which most don't have here. Those are all things Engvist didn't do (not to mention Engvist is barely faster than Hal Gill).

Jacques Martin can use other players in PK, just most of the time he doesn't. We saw Eller last game on the PK, that's a good thing and he can take some mins off Pleky there. Darche, Cammy, Gio, Moen, Gomez (when he's back) also play on PK. Nokelainen will probably see PK time. So I think we have plenty of options already. White played the PK last year with Pyatt and whatnot, so he can take plenty of minutes there as well.

He fits perfectly on a 4th line. He brings energy to the line and the team.

agreed how can he be over rated when he does everything we need done, ive never seen him take a shift off

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  • 4 weeks later...

The other thing one needs to remember besides White's effort shift after shift and his character is that during the off-season it was White not Engqvist that was inked to a one-way contract.Engqvist was clearly not ready for the pros and that was the reason for taking Bett's off the waiver wire,his failure to pass the fitness exam left the Habs short of center depth.Nokelainen was a great pickup for fourth line center and when White is healthy there will be a pleasant problem for JM.Not whether they should play Weber at forward,but having Nokelainen and White to play center.White also plays the wings which helps the bottom six forwards from getting fatigued and JM always has fresh legs with experience in White,nice problem.Engqvist meantime can go back to Hamilton and refine his offensive talent playing with Leblanc and Avtsin another nice problem,who says the Habs don't know how to develop their own players.There is always something wrong it seems,even when the Habs are winning,it gets tiring being a fan reading or listening to the naysayers.Is it just me or does anyone else feel like the Habs can never do enough,or score enough,or win enough,or,or,or,etc.etc?

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I dream of the day the habs have White and Moen in the lineup together again so the habs can have a little bit of grit and toughness. Ive had enough of Nokelainen and Gorges being our tough guys, and with Darche doing nothing at all to help this team White will have no problem getting back into the lineup when hes healthy.

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All players take shifts off, from Sidney Crosby to Ryan White.

TBH my only concern in the big picture is with what a player produces on the ice, not how hard he works to produce it, and before someone replies no I don't simply mean goals and assists when I say produce, I mean anything tangible that helps a team win, defensive play, good board game/physical game, puck possession.

Hard work appeases fans but what really matters is your output. If White has to work 2x as hard to produce half as much as a more skilled, lazier player than give me the lazier player.

I believe in intangibles but I believe they show up in your production. If Ryan White's work ethic is an intangible, it shows up in his on ice productivity. It's not something we need to measure in addition to what he does on the ice.

His actual ability to work hard means nothing. If his apparent ability to work harder than most causes him to be a great defensive player than fine, let's play him because he's great defensively. Also, FWIW, 4th liners are often considered "harder workers" because they play less, it's easier to run around when you play so much less than guys on the top line. You have to pace yourself sometimes as a top 6 player, it's a marathon of a season. Let's give White Plekanec's minutes and matchups for the season and we'll see how much he runs around shift to shift.

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TBH my only concern in the big picture is with what a player produces on the ice, not how hard he works to produce it, and before someone replies no I don't simply mean goals and assists when I say produce, I mean anything tangible that helps a team win, defensive play, good board game/physical game, puck possession.

Hard work appeases fans but what really matters is your output. If White has to work 2x as hard to produce half as much as a more skilled, lazier player than give me the lazier player.

I believe in intangibles but I believe they show up in your production. If Ryan White's work ethic is an intangible, it shows up in his on ice productivity. It's not something we need to measure in addition to what he does on the ice.

His actual ability to work hard means nothing. If his apparent ability to work harder than most causes him to be a great defensive player than fine, let's play him because he's great defensively. Also, FWIW, 4th liners are often considered "harder workers" because they play less, it's easier to run around when you play so much less than guys on the top line. You have to pace yourself sometimes as a top 6 player, it's a marathon of a season. Let's give White Plekanec's minutes and matchups for the season and we'll see how much he runs around shift to shift.

agreed anyone on the bottom 6 on any team is usually described as

Gritty

Hard working

Veteran leader

Frankly I see white as more grit than hard work, not that what he brings to the team isn't "hard work" im sure fighting and hitting (he doesn't fight incredibly often but he does more so than anyone we have except maybe Nokelainen now...) anyways im sure fighting and hitting can take alot out of a guy, which is probably why he only gets a few mins per game.

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TBH my only concern in the big picture is with what a player produces on the ice, not how hard he works to produce it, and before someone replies no I don't simply mean goals and assists when I say produce, I mean anything tangible that helps a team win, defensive play, good board game/physical game, puck possession.

Hard work appeases fans but what really matters is your output. If White has to work 2x as hard to produce half as much as a more skilled, lazier player than give me the lazier player.

I believe in intangibles but I believe they show up in your production. If Ryan White's work ethic is an intangible, it shows up in his on ice productivity. It's not something we need to measure in addition to what he does on the ice.

His actual ability to work hard means nothing. If his apparent ability to work harder than most causes him to be a great defensive player than fine, let's play him because he's great defensively. Also, FWIW, 4th liners are often considered "harder workers" because they play less, it's easier to run around when you play so much less than guys on the top line. You have to pace yourself sometimes as a top 6 player, it's a marathon of a season. Let's give White Plekanec's minutes and matchups for the season and we'll see how much he runs around shift to shift.

- Body checks

- Can fight

- Energy

- Can play on PK

What more do you want from a 4th liner?

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- Body checks

- Can fight

- Energy

- Can play on PK

What more do you want from a 4th liner?

So first of all, you clearly didn't read my post or it's context. I never said White isn't a capable 4th liner, I was arguing that the ability to work hard has any actual value by it's self, which it doesn't. White's on ice productivity is what matters and whether he arrives at that productivity level with 30% skill and 70% hard work or 70% skill and 30% hard work is irrelevant to me. It wasn't a discussion about White so much as about the term "he works hard".

Second, of the skills you mentioned I only find a couple truly useful. Physical game is one, although provided it is coupled with good puck retrieval and board play. White is better at racking up a high number or raw hits than he is at either of those things, but he's still strong enough to play on the 4th line. The other is, obviously the ability to kill penalties. White got a bit of time in his 16 games here in 09-10, I don't remember the injury situation at that time although we were light on able penalty killers. I also don't remember how good he was in that role, at all. Last season he played under 10 seconds per game short handed. If he's a positive as a penalty killer at the NHL level it seriously helps his chances of being a long term NHLer.

As for my initial claim that he's overrated, he is. Hockey culture seems to credit 4th liners with these mythical attributes that we have no real evidence of actually impacting a game. Grittiness, leadership, energy ect. People will argue till they're blue in the face that they exist and they have a significant impact on games though.

I don't mind White. He's an NHLer, a 12th or 13th forward. Interchangeable spare part. My initial point was that he's not guaranteed anything.

anyways im sure fighting and hitting can take alot out of a guy, which is probably why he only gets a few mins per game.

He's not good enough right now to be more than a 4th liner. That's why his minutes are low. If they felt he was, they would tell him to scale it back so he could take on more important ice time. Moen is a good example, if he played 8 minutes a night I'm sure he'd run around slamming guys and trying to pick fights to stay in the NHL but he plays a more important role so he has to pace himself a bit more.

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So first of all, you clearly didn't read my post or it's context. I never said White isn't a capable 4th liner, I was arguing that the ability to work hard has any actual value by it's self, which it doesn't. White's on ice productivity is what matters and whether he arrives at that productivity level with 30% skill and 70% hard work or 70% skill and 30% hard work is irrelevant to me. It wasn't a discussion about White so much as about the term "he works hard".

Second, of the skills you mentioned I only find a couple truly useful. Physical game is one, although provided it is coupled with good puck retrieval and board play. White is better at racking up a high number or raw hits than he is at either of those things, but he's still strong enough to play on the 4th line. The other is, obviously the ability to kill penalties. White got a bit of time in his 16 games here in 09-10, I don't remember the injury situation at that time although we were light on able penalty killers. I also don't remember how good he was in that role, at all. Last season he played under 10 seconds per game short handed. If he's a positive as a penalty killer at the NHL level it seriously helps his chances of being a long term NHLer.

As for my initial claim that he's overrated, he is. Hockey culture seems to credit 4th liners with these mythical attributes that we have no real evidence of actually impacting a game. Grittiness, leadership, energy ect. People will argue till they're blue in the face that they exist and they have a significant impact on games though.

I don't mind White. He's an NHLer, a 12th or 13th forward. Interchangeable spare part. My initial point was that he's not guaranteed anything.

He's not good enough right now to be more than a 4th liner. That's why his minutes are low. If they felt he was, they would tell him to scale it back so he could take on more important ice time. Moen is a good example, if he played 8 minutes a night I'm sure he'd run around slamming guys and trying to pick fights to stay in the NHL but he plays a more important role so he has to pace himself a bit more.

I just prefer summarized words instead of walls of texts that sums to nothing much, but that's just me. Theorizing about what hard work means and whatnot is pretty useless. We know which players gives the extra mile (not all do), White does.

As for puck retrieval and whatnot, as long as the 4th line does not cost you goals, they're fine. If they can give you good hits and some energy, that's why they're there. Doesn't matter much if they circle the puck for 50 seconds along the boards for nothing.

As for PK, he was really good and effective when paired with Tom Pyatt, for instance. People who watched him will remember.

As for the overrated, he's not. Why? Because he belongs in the NHL on a 4th line, hence he is not overrated, simple. We're not saying he's the savior, we're just saying he does a good job of fitting in that role, a type of player that we need on a 4th line here in Montreal.

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So first of all, you clearly didn't read my post or it's context. I never said White isn't a capable 4th liner, I was arguing that the ability to work hard has any actual value by it's self, which it doesn't. White's on ice productivity is what matters and whether he arrives at that productivity level with 30% skill and 70% hard work or 70% skill and 30% hard work is irrelevant to me. It wasn't a discussion about White so much as about the term "he works hard".

Second, of the skills you mentioned I only find a couple truly useful. Physical game is one, although provided it is coupled with good puck retrieval and board play. White is better at racking up a high number or raw hits than he is at either of those things, but he's still strong enough to play on the 4th line. The other is, obviously the ability to kill penalties. White got a bit of time in his 16 games here in 09-10, I don't remember the injury situation at that time although we were light on able penalty killers. I also don't remember how good he was in that role, at all. Last season he played under 10 seconds per game short handed. If he's a positive as a penalty killer at the NHL level it seriously helps his chances of being a long term NHLer.

He is a very good 4th liner. Type of player teams need to win games. Its no all about skill to win a cup you need guys like white.People complain about being a weak team with no toughness , at least he brings that.

As for my initial claim that he's overrated, he is. Hockey culture seems to credit 4th liners with these mythical attributes that we have no real evidence of actually impacting a game. Grittiness, leadership, energy ect. People will argue till they're blue in the face that they exist and they have a significant impact on games though.

I don't mind White. He's an NHLer, a 12th or 13th forward. Interchangeable spare part. My initial point was that he's not guaranteed anything.

He's not good enough right now to be more than a 4th liner. That's why his minutes are low. If they felt he was, they would tell him to scale it back so he could take on more important ice time. Moen is a good example, if he played 8 minutes a night I'm sure he'd run around slamming guys and trying to pick fights to stay in the NHL but he plays a more important role so he has to pace himself a bit more.

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