weepingminotaur Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I like Josh. His attitude's great and he's a great 5th d-man / fringe 4th d-man. Question is, how much do you pay for a guy who can really only do spot duty in the top-four in order to remain effective? Gorges isn't the kind of player I really want to build around, because frankly, he's not that good. If I give out a long-term contract to a defenseman, that defenseman had better be capable of playing big minutes in all situations over a full season without wearing down. Josh isn't a physical shutdown guy, so his body wears down the longer he faces the big matchups. He's not particularly fast, nor does he make a stellar first pass or put up lots of points on the backend. I'm fine with this contract, and if Josh walks after the upcoming season, I'm fine with that too. We're not going to build a winner on sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIASUN Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I like Josh. His attitude's great and he's a great 5th d-man / fringe 4th d-man. Question is, how much do you pay for a guy who can really only do spot duty in the top-four in order to remain effective? Gorges isn't the kind of player I really want to build around, because frankly, he's not that good. If I give out a long-term contract to a defenseman, that defenseman had better be capable of playing big minutes in all situations over a full season without wearing down. Josh isn't a physical shutdown guy, so his body wears down the longer he faces the big matchups. He's not particularly fast, nor does he make a stellar first pass or put up lots of points on the backend. I'm fine with this contract, and if Josh walks after the upcoming season, I'm fine with that too. We're not going to build a winner on sentiment. Cold and calculative but not necessarily wrong. I agree he's not Ray Bourque but I do value sentiment when it comes to leadership. Josh Gorges is a solid NHL defenceman, he has long term value on the Canadiens as you mentionned because he's a great 5th d-man/fringe 4th d-man and he's still YOUNG. A leader long-term with the team tatooed on his heart, over the next few years he'd be very valuable and solid as shutdown guy in the playoffs, lets not minimize how good he was 2 years ago in the playoffs. You need 6 NHL defenceman, Gorges is an excellent middle/bottom pairing guy. If he is fully recovered a 4 year 12 million dollar contract would be fully merited. He'd replace Gill, with more mobility but less reach and he's far better than Spacek at a lower price. IMO, there is no question that he should be signed long term and remain a Hab, I could see Josh Gorges having a Craig Ludwig like presence for years on our blueline as a steady, solid, shotblocking positional defenceman that is consistent and tough as nails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 The price we paid for Josh is actually not far off his value in today's market.I can almost guarantee that the League minimum salary will increase in the next CBA in proportion to how much the Cap has increased during its life. Were probably looking at over 1 mill as a minimum wage in the new CBA. If that's the case,,,then Josh's salary looks about right, and maybe even a bit on the low side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weepingminotaur Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Cold and calculative but not necessarily wrong. I agree he's not Ray Bourque but I do value sentiment when it comes to leadership. Josh Gorges is a solid NHL defenceman, he has long term value on the Canadiens as you mentionned because he's a great 5th d-man/fringe 4th d-man and he's still YOUNG. A leader long-term with the team tatooed on his heart, over the next few years he'd be very valuable and solid as shutdown guy in the playoffs, lets not minimize how good he was 2 years ago in the playoffs. You need 6 NHL defenceman, Gorges is an excellent middle/bottom pairing guy. If he is fully recovered a 4 year 12 million dollar contract would be fully merited. He'd replace Gill, with more mobility but less reach and he's far better than Spacek at a lower price. IMO, there is no question that he should be signed long term and remain a Hab, I could see Josh Gorges having a Craig Ludwig like presence for years on our blueline as a steady, solid, shotblocking positional defenceman that is consistent and tough as nails. Well, I never disputed that Gorges has value. The question is really: what do you pay a fringe 4th d-man? We might just have differing opinions of how much / how long to pay a player like Gorges. I'd never give someone like Josh a four-year contract, frankly. Three years max, and only if the cap hit is reasonable. Yes, he's better value than Gill or Spacek, but two wrongs don't make a right. Gill is on a one-year contract and hopefully won't be back the year after. Spacek's contract is a bad one and therefore shouldn't be used as any kind of baseline IMO. As for Ludwig, Gorges isn't even close to being the physical presence that Ludwig was, and that was a completely different era with a different style of hockey and an uncapped roster. It's all very well to evoke that kind of nostalgia, but I'm just not sure how much relevance it has to the NHL of today with a $64 million salary cap and a much faster and more grueling game. Lastly, Josh Gorges is not a shutdown player to me. He's not big and strong enough, and he's not a good enough positional player to compensate. Doing spot duty as a shutdown player in a very small sample (the 09-10 playoffs) means nothing. Anybody can get hot for a few weeks and play above his head. Over an 82-game season, he'll wear down and become progressively effective, which is why he's a fringe top-four guy and therefore not worth overpaying or signing to a multi-year contract unless the annual cap hit is favorable for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIASUN Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 At 26 years of age and solid NHL experience already under his belt, we're not sure that this is as good as he will become, he is entering his prime currently, given his track record for hard work and dedication, his chances of recovery are good. I understand your point about not wanting to overpay for a "fringe" 4th d-man. For arguments sake, let's say he develops enough to be a 4th d-man period. What is the value of a number 4 D-man in today's NHL? Is it half as much as Markov's salary? Is it Sekera money? Montador? Ericsson? Smid? I really don't know the answer to that. Given the market I would say a solid NHL d-man makes >2 million dollars per year. On most teams the top 4 d-men >2.5. Considering the fact that we again are going to be facing an UFA scenario with Josh next year, we will have to pay slightly higher than we would have this year on a multi-year deal. Would 3 years 9 million dollars be overpaying for a guy that on our roster is a top 4? Evoking Ludwig was an analogy not nostalgia. What I meant was more big picture, as in Ludwig was not spectacular but was a sure thing in the middle of the D corps for many years. Which is essentially what Josh should become. A bonafide defensive defenseman that can be relied upon shorthanded and at even strength at any point in the game. We may differ on his capabilities as a "shutdown" guy but we cannot brush aside his play vs Ovechkin/Crosby as merely getting "hot". It's not the same as scoring goals like Ward or Bergenheim. A goal scorer needs one shot a game to make an impact, a shutdown guy has to deter that shot every shift consistently, it's not a fair comparison and sells defenceman short. Lastly, He isn't small. 6'1" 200lbs isn't fragile. He averages more than 1.5 hits and 2 block shots per game. He's solid. He can be relied upon for 19-21 minutes a game including SH time. The fact that he played his best in the postseason after he played all 82 games that season does not highlight someone that wears down quite as easily as you indicated, it shows a gamer that raises his game as the importance increases, that is the kind of defenceman and character the team should lockup for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GohabsGO9811 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I think he is going to do really well. He will be a good penalty killer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddienmike Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I think he is going to do really well. He will be a good penalty killer He already is a great penalty killer,and I agree with Maisun we should have signed him for longer,I think too many people don't appreciate just what JG brings to this team apart from the intangibles,and nobody knows what else he can bring now that he is healthy,there is no way PG will let him go next season if he has a good year and JG will not go anywhere else just for the money,he is a HAB through and through and he loves this team as much as anybody.I think it is great when you look at the roster and see so many players who just love this team. GO JOSH GO :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptWelly Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 He already is a great penalty killer,and I agree with Maisun we should have signed him for longer,I think too many people don't appreciate just what JG brings to this team apart from the intangibles,and nobody knows what else he can bring now that he is healthy,there is no way PG will let him go next season if he has a good year and JG will not go anywhere else just for the money,he is a HAB through and through and he loves this team as much as anybody.I think it is great when you look at the roster and see so many players who just love this team. GO JOSH GO :lol: I agree that I believe he is undervalued. I think he will be a 2nd pairing 3-4 d-man. Being small? He's listed at 6'1" 200 , Subban 6-0 206 , Markov 6-0 207, a defense man doesn't have to be the size of Gill or Chara to be effective. He blocks shots and does play up against top talent. What is penalty killing if it's not against the top talent and outnumbered? He is in his prime and IMO will only get better. A lot of people liked OB mostly because he was "big" , but IMO Georges is a solid d-man who I would like to see locked up long term. When Detroit gave Ericson "the Pilon" (quote from thier fan forum) 3 years at over 9mil.. It will cost more later to resign him. I don't see Gill staying forever and yes PK is coming up to RFA, but is just that RFA he won't be in position to make giant demands. The new d working thier way in are just a hope they do well. Georges plays hard every night and we know what we have. You don't have to have "Scott Stevens" style hits to be a shut down d-man. How many times did PK put himself out of position going for the big hit. I am not slamming PK he got smarter as the season went just an example. IMO lock up Georges for around 3 for 4 years. He's still only 26 in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatethosebruins Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree that I believe he is undervalued. I think he will be a 2nd pairing 3-4 d-man. Being small? He's listed at 6'1" 200 , Subban 6-0 206 , Markov 6-0 207, a defense man doesn't have to be the size of Gill or Chara to be effective. He blocks shots and does play up against top talent. What is penalty killing if it's not against the top talent and outnumbered? He is in his prime and IMO will only get better. A lot of people liked OB mostly because he was "big" , but IMO Georges is a solid d-man who I would like to see locked up long term. When Detroit gave Ericson "the Pilon" (quote from thier fan forum) 3 years at over 9mil.. It will cost more later to resign him. I don't see Gill staying forever and yes PK is coming up to RFA, but is just that RFA he won't be in position to make giant demands. The new d working thier way in are just a hope they do well. Georges plays hard every night and we know what we have. You don't have to have "Scott Stevens" style hits to be a shut down d-man. How many times did PK put himself out of position going for the big hit. I am not slamming PK he got smarter as the season went just an example. IMO lock up Georges for around 3 for 4 years. He's still only 26 in his prime. Agreed, you took the thoughts from my brain and made them make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weepingminotaur Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Sure, he's listed at 6'1'', but he doesn't play a big game, nor is he particularly strong in the upper body. Comparing him to Markov and Subban is silly -- both these players have a plethora of skills that Gorges doesn't and generate offense from the backend. Josh is what he is: a solid stay-at-home 5th d-man who can temporarily slide into the top four to fill injury holes. Taking away things we can't measure -- heart, intangibles-- and leaving aside sentiment, he's really not the type of player you should ever look to sign to a long-term deal. You know who you sign to long-term deals? Top talent. Your top center, your best scoring wingers, no. 1, 2 and 3 d-men, and maybe your goalie (though goaltending is so volatile now that the wisdom of locking up your netminder to a long-term deal is debatable). Fringe top-four defensemen are nice to have, but not players around which to build your team. I'd go three years on Gorges, no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatethosebruins Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Sure, he's listed at 6'1'', but he doesn't play a big game, nor is he particularly strong in the upper body. Comparing him to Markov and Subban is silly -- both these players have a plethora of skills that Gorges doesn't and generate offense from the backend. Josh is what he is: a solid stay-at-home 5th d-man who can temporarily slide into the top four to fill injury holes. Taking away things we can't measure -- heart, intangibles-- and leaving aside sentiment, he's really not the type of player you should ever look to sign to a long-term deal. You know who you sign to long-term deals? Top talent. Your top center, your best scoring wingers, no. 1, 2 and 3 d-men, and maybe your goalie (though goaltending is so volatile now that the wisdom of locking up your netminder to a long-term deal is debatable). Fringe top-four defensemen are nice to have, but not players around which to build your team. I'd go three years on Gorges, no more. Three years for me was long term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIASUN Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 3 years is perfect for me also. I guess we're all in agreement now. A known commodity in the middle of the D corps for 3 years while the prospects continue to develop, sounds like a reasonable course of action to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Bah Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 While getting a raise to $2.5 mill. Pierre has shown appreciation for Josh and his passion for being a Hab.It's better for him to play healthy this year and show all of us he's only getting better like a fine bottle of wine.Then Gauthier and Josh can work out a deal for the long term that pays him according to his worth and have a happy player being paid fairly.Great to see Gorges back in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noob616 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 1 year 2.5 is a fair contract I think, will give us a chance to see how well his knee has recovered, and it's not stupid money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddienmike Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOSH Have a good one Josh,can't wait to see you back on the ice,we really missed you,hope that you are well and skating well GO JOSH GO :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmarcello Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I'm a few days late, but I just have to say how nice it was to see one of my very favorite players back on the ice. Gorges looked great out there. Defensive positioning was great as usual, he took a couple big hits and kept on ticking, and he even looked pretty good holding that offensive blue line a few times. Can't wait to see him out there again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuniorSTLB Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Really good game from him IMO. Better than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddienmike Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Really good game from him IMO. Better than ever. Of course what did you expect,It's Gorges we are talking about,there is no way this guy would have come back other than better,just need to be a bit patient on his timing,I would think GO JOSH GO :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MkGee Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 georges isnt really small i mean if hes small then dustin brown is as well and hes always top five for hits but i think this will be gills last year here so lets try and establish another partner for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatethosebruins Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Glad to see him back, and agree that we need to find a new partner for him. If yemelin pans out our top 4 could look like this next season: Markov-Yemelin Gorges-Subban However that depends on alot of ifs from yemelin and gorges. And as always, markov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicalhab Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Glad to see him back, and agree that we need to find a new partner for him. If yemelin pans out our top 4 could look like this next season: Markov-Yemelin Gorges-Subban However that depends on alot of ifs from yemelin and gorges. And as always, markov. And Subban. 4 big ifs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_rocket Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I was watching the highlights on TSN from last night's game against Tampa, and boy... Did it ever look bad when he got tangled up in the corner and went down awkwardly. I was relieved to find out he was okay and continued playing. The last thing we need is for Gorges to have more knee problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIASUN Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 PHEW! I think mentally that was great for Josh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince1975 Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I was watching the highlights on TSN from last night's game against Tampa, and boy... Did it ever look bad when he got tangled up in the corner and went down awkwardly. I was relieved to find out he was okay and continued playing. The last thing we need is for Gorges to have more knee problems. It looked really bad. I was also really really happy that Gorges was out to play again in a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine1One Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 so do you guys feel he is a legit #3-4 defensemen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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