#21 Brian Gionta 2011-2012

[Noob616]

I think Gionta is certainly capable of 30 goals. He hasn't done it here yet, but come on, 28 goals in like 60 games the first season? I don't know how someone could fault him for not hitting 30 that year. Last season he played with Gomez, and put up 29 goals. Which IMO is a testament to how well he played. He also had a monster playoff for us in 2010, which seems to get forgotten amongst Cammalleri and Halak's performances. Gionta isn't a concern to me. To me, he's worth 5M next year (due to the combination of being a 25-30 goal scorer and a good two way forward), but probably not worth 5M the last year. He's the perfect linemate for Plekanec, and he won't be a dinosaur next year. Even if he drops off in the last year of his contract, hopefully by then one of Eller, Leblanc, Palushaj, or a potential winger we draft this year or next year could step in to his spot letting him drop to the 3rd line. I don't see his contract as an albatross, 5M might be just a slight bit over what he's worth, but it really is only likely a big overpayment in the final year, and it's not worth it to me to dump him for that. Again, IMO nobody is untouchable with the right deal coming back the other way, but I really don't see Gionta's contract in the same light as Gomez's where we're just trying to dump it at all costs.

Also, if we get rid of Gionta, who is going to replace him? We have Cole, Pacioretty, and Gionta as legitimate top 6 wingers right now. We've seen this year what happens when you try to play with only 2 legitimate top 6 wingers. Unless we draft Yakupov, Forsberg, or Eller converts to the wing, we don't have anyone in the system even remotely close to replacing Gionta next year, especially when you consider that he'll be playing on a line with a defensive role with Plekanec. Two way scoring wingers like Gionta are hard to come by, and I think we're only overpaying by maybe 0.5M to 1M at the most, and to just dump that contract (especially considering he's the captain and has been very consistent) with nobody to replace him would be quite short sighted IMO, and I find it doubtful that coming off his injury we'd get anything near equal value in return. Unless someone is blowing our doors off, I don't see the benefit in trading him.

[roy_133]

Brian Gionta -- 4/12/21/48/25/22/20/28/29/8

This is his goal totals for his NHL career. Again, I ask, is he really worth 5mil that the Habs are paying him?

It's not an unfair question because in a vacuum he may not necessarily be worth it (although I could easily argue he is) but it's never that simple. First of all, if we believe he's overpaid, why exactly is another team going to be willing to take on his contract? Secondly and most importantly, the issue becomes about term. If we get rid of Gionta, we need to find a winger who can fill his role and that's not just 25-29 goals, it's good defensive value, it's PK time, it's doing that while playing tough match ups. Not only would it be hard to replace that, it would cost either a lot of money AND term or a lot of players via trade. His term is the big key, his contract expiring coincides with the hopeful development of some of our younger players.

If you believe he's overpaid, by how much do you feel he's overpaid? He's certainly better than a 3-4 million dollar player on the free agent market. We pay a 32 year old Erik Cole, coming off a 26 goal season 4.5 over 4 years. That's probably a fair start, Cole is bigger but Gionta is definitely better defensively. Never mind the fact that to get Cole to 4.5 per year, we had to lock him up through his 37th birthday.

It's tough, you need guys like Gionta too. You need guys who can play that role and it's just tough to get them and when you have one on a contract that isn't insane with a short term, you probably hang onto it.

[Noob616]

The bottom line for me is that while his contract is probably a slight overpayment, it isn't an albatross and doesn't need to be dumped at all costs like Gomez's contract.

[weepingminotaur]

Guerin was acquired as a late-season add-on by the Pens. When they re-signed him themselves, they only paid him 2M, which is more in line with what a "role player" should be earning. Now I think Gionta is more than just a role player, but despite this, I can't see him being worth 5M, which is my biggest concern going forward with him. Having dealt Cammy and AK without bringing in another top 6 player, we're now in a position where we are somewhat stuck having to use Gionta in that role (heck, I'm having trouble identifying a sixth top 6 guy, never mind a fifth as well). Suffice it to say that we are no longer in a position to trade Gionta unless we get something back to replace him with. That said, I would be all for dealing away Gionta if we can bring in 1) a younger, more physical scorer for a similar cap hit (e.g. Chris Stewart) or 2) a guy who can pop 25 goals a year for less money, so long as we use those savings to bolster another part of our line-up. I'm not against Gionta staying here nor against what he brings to the table, especially if we add size in other areas. But I also feel like we can use his cap hit money better in other areas and groom a player like LL or Gallagher to play his role. If the plan is to go for the Cup next season, then committing to rookies doesn't make sense and you want to keep Gionta. But my preference is to try to build around the core of young guys we already have to make a legitimate Cup run in 2-3 seasons and in that case, I see Gionta's cap hit as being more of a hindrance to developing or acquiring younger NHL-ready guys for our top 9. By the time we're competitive for a Cup, Gionta's 5M has a good chance of impeding our course and I just feel like it's better to address that sooner rather than waiting for his value to dip.

Well, I wasn't suggesting that Guerin and Gionta are the same, but rather responding to a view I've seen expressed a few times on this forum, which is that any veteran player should be traded to make room for the kids. In actuality, it's not that straightforward. You need the right mix of young players, core forwards in their physical prime, and veterans playing appropriate roles. This isn't Randy McKay or even a washed-up Doug Gilmour we're talking about: Gionta is still providing good production and the defensive part of his game makes him an ideal candidate to play alongside Plekanec. Grooming LL or Gallagher will take time, and even if you do that, our current second line isn't where players should be breaking in unless they're top-three picks who can pretty much make an impact in any situation. As far as being competitive for a Cup, I seriously doubt that Gionta's remaining two years will be a hindrance, and even if I felt this way, why flip him when his value is low? If you're hellbent on trading Gionta, wait until next year's trade deadline, when he'd be a very attractive piece for a team to add. As far as the return you expect for Gionta, a younger, more physical scorer who's any good will cost a lot, and is hard to find -- every team wants that player. More likely we'd be forced to take on another enigma like Bourque for more term than Gio's remaining contract. Again, why do that? As for the 25-goal man, if you think you can find a cheaper player than Gionta who posts those numbers in today's cap world *and* who is being shopped, be my guest. Spending $5 million against the cap in 2012 is fine with me.

Again, not saying I wouldn't deal Gionta if the deal were right, just that he fulfills an important role right now, he's only under contract for two more years, and he's younger than Erik Cole, who's signed until age 37. He's not a guy we actively look to move IMO.

[BigTed3]

Well, I wasn't suggesting that Guerin and Gionta are the same, but rather responding to a view I've seen expressed a few times on this forum, which is that any veteran player should be traded to make room for the kids. In actuality, it's not that straightforward. You need the right mix of young players, core forwards in their physical prime, and veterans playing appropriate roles. This isn't Randy McKay or even a washed-up Doug Gilmour we're talking about: Gionta is still providing good production and the defensive part of his game makes him an ideal candidate to play alongside Plekanec. Grooming LL or Gallagher will take time, and even if you do that, our current second line isn't where players should be breaking in unless they're top-three picks who can pretty much make an impact in any situation. As far as being competitive for a Cup, I seriously doubt that Gionta's remaining two years will be a hindrance, and even if I felt this way, why flip him when his value is low? If you're hellbent on trading Gionta, wait until next year's trade deadline, when he'd be a very attractive piece for a team to add. As far as the return you expect for Gionta, a younger, more physical scorer who's any good will cost a lot, and is hard to find -- every team wants that player. More likely we'd be forced to take on another enigma like Bourque for more term than Gio's remaining contract. Again, why do that? As for the 25-goal man, if you think you can find a cheaper player than Gionta who posts those numbers in today's cap world *and* who is being shopped, be my guest. Spending $5 million against the cap in 2012 is fine with me.

Again, not saying I wouldn't deal Gionta if the deal were right, just that he fulfills an important role right now, he's only under contract for two more years, and he's younger than Erik Cole, who's signed until age 37. He's not a guy we actively look to move IMO.

Just going to clarify a few points that I'm not sure I made clear:

1. At this time, I don't believe we can deal Gionta, simply because we don't have anything to replace him with now. I'm not advocating trading him away to dump his salary, I simply believe that he's being overpaid and that the money can be better spent. If the opportunity presents itself to sign a guy like Suter and if that move forces us to clear salary elsewhere, I'd be alright with dealing Gionta and using Suter/Leblanc instead of Diaz/Gionta. That's all I'm saying.

2. I'm not suggesting Gionta will himself get us a young power forward in return. But again, if we can use another piece or pieces (say, dealing DD and Kristo, for example) to acquire a Chris Stewart, then to me, using Stewart fits the direction of the team better than using Gionta. Stewart is going to hit his peak at the same time as Subban and Price and Pacman and he'll cost less than Gionta if you sign him now as a restricted free agent.

3. On the subject of Gio's value, here I fully agree that this could increase once the season begins next year. Again, I am not advocating dumping Gionta and I'm really only looking to trade him if we can upgrade our roster as a result of moving another piece into the slot or cap space he leaves behind. I still see value in what Gionta brings, but I also recognize that his production likely won't exceed what he's already given us and may even drop by the end of his contract here. All I'm saying is that he's not untouchable to me and that if an upgrade is feasible, I think we can spend our money more favorably and actually try to put pieces in place that can be key to winning a Cup. 5M is nothing to sneeze at and there are plenty of guy making that amount who would be better fits here going forward.

[weepingminotaur]

I still don't get why he's not a good fit? I think we're agreed that he's not untouchable, 100%, but this idea that we need to trade him for a more suitable player is a bit puzzling to me. To me he's a great fit for our current roster. He's a veteran scorer who can be productive against touch matchups, he's defensively responsible (making him a great fit for Plekanec), he's only signed for two more years, and speaking to the point about Cup contention, he's been a very good playoff performer for us (I'd say his 09-10 playoff performance was excellent, actually). A guy like Gionta is exactly the type of complementary scoring piece you want to make a Cup push. A roster of Giontas wouldn't be great, but that's not our problem. We have plenty of skilled size on the wing now (Pacioretty, Cole, Bourque), as well as more physical lower-tier guys such as Moen and White. Sure, we're small down the middle with the exception of Eller, but that's not Gionta's position. Furthermore, with the emergence of the DD line, we wouldn't be asking him to carry the team in scoring.

On the topic of him being overpaid, I don't get it, really. In 2012, $5 million against the cap for a forward who brings Gio's package is money well-spent. The only guys who'll do the same or better for less are younger players who aren't yet in a position to touch big money, but again, they're hard to come by, and going back to Cup contention, the playoffs is exactly where young guys tend to falter, even if they're more skilled than a guy like Gionta.

I get the concern about the next two years. I share it to some extent, but on paper there's no reason to think Gionta won't continue to be a productive asset so long as he stays healthy. If the opportunity comes along to package him for a top player, well, yeah, obviously we pull the trigger on that one, but it seems like an unrealistic scenario. There was a much stronger case for trading Gionta when Cammalleri was still on the roster, but now that the latter is gone and Gomez is almost certainly not going to be a Hab next year, we'll have cap room to maneuver, and we can afford to keep a smaller forward like Gionta, because he's no longer the only type of top-six player we have.

[grecohab]

I still don't get why he's not a good fit? I think we're agreed that he's not untouchable, 100%, but this idea that we need to trade him for a more suitable player is a bit puzzling to me. To me he's a great fit for our current roster. He's a veteran scorer who can be productive against touch matchups, he's defensively responsible (making him a great fit for Plekanec), he's only signed for two more years, and speaking to the point about Cup contention, he's been a very good playoff performer for us (I'd say his 09-10 playoff performance was excellent, actually). A guy like Gionta is exactly the type of complementary scoring piece you want to make a Cup push. A roster of Giontas wouldn't be great, but that's not our problem. We have plenty of skilled size on the wing now (Pacioretty, Cole, Bourque), as well as more physical lower-tier guys such as Moen and White. Sure, we're small down the middle with the exception of Eller, but that's not Gionta's position. Furthermore, with the emergence of the DD line, we wouldn't be asking him to carry the team in scoring.

On the topic of him being overpaid, I don't get it, really. In 2012, $5 million against the cap for a forward who brings Gio's package is money well-spent. The only guys who'll do the same or better for less are younger players who aren't yet in a position to touch big money, but again, they're hard to come by, and going back to Cup contention, the playoffs is exactly where young guys tend to falter, even if they're more skilled than a guy like Gionta.

I get the concern about the next two years. I share it to some extent, but on paper there's no reason to think Gionta won't continue to be a productive asset so long as he stays healthy. If the opportunity comes along to package him for a top player, well, yeah, obviously we pull the trigger on that one, but it seems like an unrealistic scenario. There was a much stronger case for trading Gionta when Cammalleri was still on the roster, but now that the latter is gone and Gomez is almost certainly not going to be a Hab next year, we'll have cap room to maneuver, and we can afford to keep a smaller forward like Gionta, because he's no longer the only type of top-six player we have.

Gionta is a very decent offensively and very responsible defensively player. He can score the late goal, the OT goal, the odd goal and at the same time play a huge role in the penalty killing unit and shutting down top line opponents. He is to me the perfect 3rd line right winger, and should be paired with Eller and Moen, in a very good, shutting down 3rd line. The best would be for us, to trade him next year, making room, for his alter ego, Gallagher.

[Manatee-X]

Gionta is a very decent offensively and very responsible defensively player. He can score the late goal, the OT goal, the odd goal and at the same time play a huge role in the penalty killing unit and shutting down top line opponents. He is to me the perfect 3rd line right winger, and should be paired with Eller and Moen, in a very good, shutting down 3rd line. The best would be for us, to trade him next year, making room, for his alter ego, Gallagher.

I read a lot on this board about how so and so is actually a second line centre or a sixth defensemen or what have you, but it's always on 'the ideal team'. To be honest I don't think that ideal team really exists, since even if you acquire some combination of a true top-four defenders, three true first-line wingers or a true top-flight goalie you probably can't afford the other peice of the puzzle. At the very least, you probably gave away one of those other pieces in a trade while perfecting the first piece. By these standards there are only so many 'true' first-liners and top-pairing defensemen in the league, and that number is probably less than the total number of teams. So I find a lot of this talking about people as "well he's really a good fifth defenceman or a bad fourth defenceman but we need to play him in the #2 slot" is really just wishful thinking.

Even having said that (and bringing it back to Gionta) there is no way I can see how you can call Gionta a third-line player at this stage. The guy has been playing with what were sometimes less than ideal partners and has been on a 30 GOAL PACE since joining our team. The fact that that offense is generated while playing some of our team's best defence only adds to his value. I tell ya, show me a team that has guys like Gionta for their third line and I'll show you a Stanley Cup champion (or I guess a really weird coach )

[grecohab]

I read a lot on this board about how so and so is actually a second line centre or a sixth defensemen or what have you, but it's always on 'the ideal team'. To be honest I don't think that ideal team really exists, since even if you acquire some combination of a true top-four defenders, three true first-line wingers or a true top-flight goalie you probably can't afford the other peice of the puzzle. At the very least, you probably gave away one of those other pieces in a trade while perfecting the first piece. By these standards there are only so many 'true' first-liners and top-pairing defensemen in the league, and that number is probably less than the total number of teams. So I find a lot of this talking about people as "well he's really a good fifth defenceman or a bad fourth defenceman but we need to play him in the #2 slot" is really just wishful thinking.

Even having said that (and bringing it back to Gionta) there is no way I can see how you can call Gionta a third-line player at this stage. The guy has been playing with what were sometimes less than ideal partners and has been on a 30 GOAL PACE since joining our team. The fact that that offense is generated while playing some of our team's best defence only adds to his value. I tell ya, show me a team that has guys like Gionta for their third line and I'll show you a Stanley Cup champion (or I guess a really weird coach )

You can play him at the 1st line and drop Cole down the right wing chart. I guess you are the better coach, after all...

[ColRouleBleu]

hmm... isn't there another number between 1 and 3 ?

[Corazu]

hmm... isn't there another number between 1 and 3 ?

Yes! Darche!

IMO Gionta fits perfectly on the second line.

[BeanCountingHab]

I read a lot on this board about how so and so is actually a second line centre or a sixth defensemen or what have you, but it's always on 'the ideal team'. To be honest I don't think that ideal team really exists, since even if you acquire some combination of a true top-four defenders, three true first-line wingers or a true top-flight goalie you probably can't afford the other peice of the puzzle. At the very least, you probably gave away one of those other pieces in a trade while perfecting the first piece. By these standards there are only so many 'true' first-liners and top-pairing defensemen in the league, and that number is probably less than the total number of teams. So I find a lot of this talking about people as "well he's really a good fifth defenceman or a bad fourth defenceman but we need to play him in the #2 slot" is really just wishful thinking.

Even having said that (and bringing it back to Gionta) there is no way I can see how you can call Gionta a third-line player at this stage. The guy has been playing with what were sometimes less than ideal partners and has been on a 30 GOAL PACE since joining our team. The fact that that offense is generated while playing some of our team's best defence only adds to his value. I tell ya, show me a team that has guys like Gionta for their third line and I'll show you a Stanley Cup champion (or I guess a really weird coach )

This is an excellent point and we do it all the time. I have to laugh when we say Gionta is a great 3rd line player. I can't think of any other team who has the luxury of putting 29 goal scorer's (since we're not allowed to say 30 ) on their 3rd line. We must have incredible depth up front.

[WinnipegJet]

I read a lot on this board about how so and so is actually a second line centre or a sixth defensemen or what have you, but it's always on 'the ideal team'. To be honest I don't think that ideal team really exists, since even if you acquire some combination of a true top-four defenders, three true first-line wingers or a true top-flight goalie you probably can't afford the other peice of the puzzle. At the very least, you probably gave away one of those other pieces in a trade while perfecting the first piece. By these standards there are only so many 'true' first-liners and top-pairing defensemen in the league, and that number is probably less than the total number of teams. So I find a lot of this talking about people as "well he's really a good fifth defenceman or a bad fourth defenceman but we need to play him in the #2 slot" is really just wishful thinking.

Even having said that (and bringing it back to Gionta) there is no way I can see how you can call Gionta a third-line player at this stage. The guy has been playing with what were sometimes less than ideal partners and has been on a 30 GOAL PACE since joining our team. The fact that that offense is generated while playing some of our team's best defence only adds to his value. I tell ya, show me a team that has guys like Gionta for their third line and I'll show you a Stanley Cup champion (or I guess a really weird coach )

I agree. Gionta is only a third-line player on a team like Boston or Detroit that sheerly don't have room in the top-six. While he may only be a second-liner, on many teams, he's certainly no worse than that in my opinion.

[WinnipegJet]

The bottom line for me is that while his contract is probably a slight overpayment, it isn't an albatross and doesn't need to be dumped at all costs like Gomez's contract.

And that's exactly it. If Gio comes back healthy next year and hits 25+ goals, his contract won't be more than a slight overpayment. Even then though, I think we have to realize that this is the norm - how often do we hear about guys being "overpaid" now? It seems as though the only guys that don't seem to get tagged as overpaid are either still RFAs or are character/depth guys.

Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit and there will be exceptions, but I don't think Gionta's contract is an issue to handle at all. The only way it becomes one is if he comes back significantly weaker for the next two years.

[Manatee-X]

You can play him at the 1st line and drop Cole down the right wing chart. I guess you are the better coach, after all...

Sorry Grecohab if I caused any offense by my 'weird coach' comment. I was just throwing it in at the end as a bit of a joke, it wasn't directed at you.

[fansince1975]

I read somewhere about the seriousness of the injury. I hope Gionta can recover fully. And then if he has recoveried fully he becomes our 2nd line winger for Pleks. Or put on the 3rd line to mentor Eller and provide offense from the 3rd line.

[mtl_-lt-GoHabsGo-gt-_mtlc]

We sure do miss a top 6 forward like Gio who drives hard to the net. Gionta is a massive upgrade over Bourque in every dimension.

[weepingminotaur]

We're not going to pay Gionta $5 million per season to play on the third line. He'll be Plekanec's permanent winger IMO, and that's fine with me.

[Nine1One]

We're not going to pay Gionta $5 million per season to play on the third line. He'll be Plekanec's permanent winger IMO, and that's fine with me.

qft, I've really missed gionta this year.

[jennifer_rocket]

qft, I've really missed gionta this year.

Well... I hope he rebounds next year. He was on pace for only 40 points this season.

[BeanCountingHab]

Well... I hope he rebounds next year. He was on pace for only 40 points this season.

Well, they also annouced he was playing hurt. And he's been a slow starter in each of his 3 years here.

Not that it's a given he'll have the same success he had the last two years, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a similar level of play, especially if he's with Pleks for a full year and not expected to "get Gomez going" for a chunk of the season as he usually has to.

[weepingminotaur]

Yeah, he's always been a slow starter, but this trainwreck of a season coupled with the injury stopped him before he could really get started. I'm actually looking forward to him occupying that second-line RW spot alongside Pleks; I think it's a great fit for Gionta's skill set. He won't be expected to be a primary scorer, but he's a guy who can battle through matchups to get his goals and assists without forsaking his defensive responsibilities. If that line can have a skilled bigger body at left wing, it should be ideally suited to the two-way game they'll likely wind up playing.