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Martin Fired


roy_133

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lol. Darche has averaged 10:27 of ice time per game this year. The only players averaging less ice time are:

-Nokelainen

-Blunden

-Palushaj

-Engqvist

-Leblanc

Looks like 4th liners and a kid who has played 3 games in the NHL coming off shoulder surgery. Half those names don't belong in the NHL.

Actually 4/5 in my opinion.

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If he got less than all the "Other" top 6 forwards, it's because in no way shape or form, on no team even Columbus, does he qualify as a top 6 forward.

Who's arguing that Darche is a top-six forward? Not me. My point was that he got minutes because we used a lot of our skill guys on the power play.

There is certainly depleted person power, but I'm willing to bet quite a few guys got less time than him by a long shot.

Instead of 'betting' in future, how about doing your own work and checking the boxscore, which is pretty easy to find? I'll do it for you this once.

Plekanec: 22:01

Cammalleri: 20:54

Desharnais: 19:22

Cole: 19:10

Pacioretty: 17:24

Darche: 16:51

Eller: 16:46

Kostitsyn: 15:28

Nokelainen: 11:35

Weber (counting him as a forward): 6:24

Leblanc: 4:21

Blunden: 3:12

So, who got less ice time than Darche? Eller had a whopping FIVE SECONDS less than Darche, Kostitsyn just over a minute less, but Kostitsyn also played 4:31 of PP time to Darche's 10 seconds, so obviously Martin was going to give Darche an extra shift at ES to lighten the load. For the rest, the only people playing less than Darche were fourth-line guys (Noke, Weber, Blunden) and one 20-year-old rookie (Leblanc) who's only here because we are missing $13 million in forward payroll to injury (Gomez, Gionta, Moen).

So, looking at the boxscore, we see that all the top-six guys played either the same amount of time as Darche, or significantly more minutes (e.g. Plekanec), with Darche getting no PP time and doing about five minutes of PK work, which is where he belongs.

How much ice time did he get?

Seriously, man, it's easy to find boxscore results on NHL.com. You can answer this question yourself with a simple search.

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I have not paid as much attention this season because I'm working on writing my thesis. I found out about this from facebook.

As I see it, most of the problems on this team are due to Gainey. He was a panicky person, and he's gone, but the damage will linger for some time. Gauthier has been adequate with the trades, for example the Kaberle trade was clearly a good idea. He's doing the best he can.

In the case of Martin, I think he was doing the best with what he had, and the team was 3-3-1 in the last 7 as somebody else said. I would only fault him for the lack of improvement in Lars Eller's play. Eller is clearly a talented player, and he's not progressing under Martin, at least not statistically. In the games I watch he shows the same sporadic flashes of brilliance and little ice time as last season. However, that's no reason to fire a coach.

Basically, this is a competitive league, and you can't screw up. Gainey screwed up in the summer of 2009 when he let go of the vastly superior Saku Koivu for Scott Gomez, and let go of bluechip prospect Ryan McDonagh. In addition, Markov has had many bad luck injuries. So one bad horrible trade, and many bad luck injuries means it's hard to have a winning team.

Maintaining an 8th place team is an extremely difficult equilibrium. You have 12th place teams drafting high or building properly like Toronto and Tampa, and you have top teams attracting the best free agents.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/13084/jacques-martin-firing-wont-solve-habs-woes

LeBrun and Burnsides take. Not sure if this has been posted anywhere yet, but an interesting read.

Some speculation by Pierre that Martin and Gauthier were not seeing eye to eye on how the team should play or be constructed. Also RDS had reported a lively confrontation between the two after Thursday's loss.

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They're both idiots. Sports media is really the lowest form of journalism. Nobody does their homework, nobody checks facts, it's just a gigantic echo chamber full of idiots.

There's never a point in reading what the media says. If someone really wants to go back enough, both these guys were probably saying the Habs needed to fire JM. It happens and the tone changes. It's typical sports media and you're right. Most of the guys who write about hockey are has-been never had it rejects who could only make a living doing this crap.

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There's never a point in reading what the media says. If someone really wants to go back enough, both these guys were probably saying the Habs needed to fire JM. It happens and the tone changes. It's typical sports media and you're right. Most of the guys who write about hockey are has-been never had it rejects who could only make a living doing this crap.

They're just chockful of wrong-headed assumptions, flawed logic, and strawmen. For example, they use the (flawed) assumption that Martin was all about boring defense as the basis for positing a false contrast between defense and speedy forwards. In the first instance, Martin has coached high-scoring teams in the past, and during his time here, stressed puck possession and attacking in five-man units, to the point where we had dramatically cut down on shots and chances allowed. So the assumption itself is wrong. In the second instance, having a team of small speedy forwards is not a de facto reason to abandon team defense. In fact, Martin's system was TAILORED to our squad. It emphasized quick puck movement and sound positional play and allowed our forwards to control the game via possession. It also generated a high number of shots on net, which is exactly what you want when you have a streaky team full of second-line forwards and east-west players who can do good things when the puck is on their stick, but who aren't suited to grind below the hash marks. So their conclusion is also wrong.

Morons, most of 'em. They don't know hockey, they just know buzz and hockeyspeak.

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There's never a point in reading what the media says. If someone really wants to go back enough, both these guys were probably saying the Habs needed to fire JM. It happens and the tone changes. It's typical sports media and you're right. Most of the guys who write about hockey are has-been never had it rejects who could only make a living doing this crap.

Hockey media is generally dumb, but LeBrun is on my short list of guys I don't find useless. Friedman is probably at the top for me.

Lets take a deep breath and keep this about the Jacques Martin situation, not about each other.

If it makes you feel better, I believe the last couple of heated posts are referring to sports media, not fellow posters. B)

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They're both idiots. Sports media is really the lowest form of journalism. Nobody does their homework, nobody checks facts, it's just a gigantic echo chamber full of idiots.

Are you saying that finance journalism and political journalism are not gigantic echo chambers full of idiots?

laugh.giflaugh.gif

ETA: What about film reviews?

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Hockey media is generally dumb, but LeBrun is on my short list of guys I don't find useless. Friedman is probably at the top for me.

I like Friedman too. He's one of the few guys who does his homework. I used to have marginal respect for LeBrun, but he's just gone down the drain, become one of those idiot talking heads who says what's trendy to say instead of actually digging for substantive stories.

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Who's arguing that Darche is a top-six forward? Not me. My point was that he got minutes because we used a lot of our skill guys on the power play.

Instead of 'betting' in future, how about doing your own work and checking the boxscore, which is pretty easy to find? I'll do it for you this once.

Plekanec: 22:01

Cammalleri: 20:54

Desharnais: 19:22

Cole: 19:10

Pacioretty: 17:24

Darche: 16:51

Eller: 16:46

Kostitsyn: 15:28

Nokelainen: 11:35

Weber (counting him as a forward): 6:24

Leblanc: 4:21

Blunden: 3:12

So, who got less ice time than Darche? Eller had a whopping FIVE SECONDS less than Darche, Kostitsyn just over a minute less, but Kostitsyn also played 4:31 of PP time to Darche's 10 seconds, so obviously Martin was going to give Darche an extra shift at ES to lighten the load. For the rest, the only people playing less than Darche were fourth-line guys (Noke, Weber, Blunden) and one 20-year-old rookie (Leblanc) who's only here because we are missing $13 million in forward payroll to injury (Gomez, Gionta, Moen).

So, looking at the boxscore, we see that all the top-six guys played either the same amount of time as Darche, or significantly more minutes (e.g. Plekanec), with Darche getting no PP time and doing about five minutes of PK work, which is where he belongs.

Seriously, man, it's easy to find boxscore results on NHL.com. You can answer this question yourself with a simple search.

Your post proved my point. His numbers should be down near the bottom, not just below the "top 5"

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Anyway, I was just using Darche as an example. It's more about not punishing vets no matter how poorly they play, and benching younger players when they make a single mistake. As has been said elsewhere, he bseemed to be coaching for his own benefit rather than the team. The old expression back in the day was "Nobody ever get fired for buying IBM". If he plays Gomez (before he was injured) and Gomez is a goat, he can't be blamed. If he plays Leblanc in the 3rd period last night and the kid is a goat, he looks very bad. But what is the right choice?

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Your post proved my point. His numbers should be down near the bottom, not just below the "top 5"

The major part of weep's point was that people are picking one unusual game where over half of it was played on special teams and making it sound like Darche is consistently getting more ice time then our better players. Here's a look at TOI per game for the season:

1 P.K. Subban 24:09

2 Josh Gorges 22:28

3 Tomas Plekanec 21:10

4 Brian Gionta 19:48

5 Raphael Diaz 19:24

6 Tomas Kaberle 19:04

7 Michael Camm 18:37

8 Hal Gill 18:29

9 David Des 17:49

10 Max Pacioretty 17:29

11 Yannick Weber 16:43

12 Erik Cole 16:30

13 Alexei Emelin 16:25

14 Andrei Kost 15:56

15 Scott Gomez 15:12

16 Travis Moen 15:06

17 Lars Eller 14:54

18 Chris Campoli 14:52

19 Frédéric St-D 11:48

20 Mathieu Darche 10:27

21 Petteri Nok 9:00

22 Louis Leblanc 8:54

23 Aaron Palushaj 6:36

24 Andreas Eng 6:24

25 Mike Blunden 4:49

Better?

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so you want the top 5 to play close to 24 mins a game?

no, but maybe nokelainen and a couple of the guys in single digit times could have seen more action. Really I don't see why sarcasm has to be used when disagreeing with me, and no attempt to hide your disdain and disrespect. I am happy Martin was fired, I have advanced my reasons and tried to give examples. You are shooting down my examples. If I had not given any you would have been shooting down that. Just because I am not here all the time doesn't make me less a fan or less knowledgeable, or less deserving of respect

The major part of weep's point was that people are picking one unusual game where over half of it was played on special teams and making it sound like Darche is consistently getting more ice time then our better players. Here's a look at TOI per game for the season:

1 P.K. Subban 24:09

2 Josh Gorges 22:28

3 Tomas Plekanec 21:10

4 Brian Gionta 19:48

5 Raphael Diaz 19:24

6 Tomas Kaberle 19:04

7 Michael Camm 18:37

8 Hal Gill 18:29

9 David Des 17:49

10 Max Pacioretty 17:29

11 Yannick Weber 16:43

12 Erik Cole 16:30

13 Alexei Emelin 16:25

14 Andrei Kost 15:56

15 Scott Gomez 15:12

16 Travis Moen 15:06

17 Lars Eller 14:54

18 Chris Campoli 14:52

19 Frédéric St-D 11:48

20 Mathieu Darche 10:27

21 Petteri Nok 9:00

22 Louis Leblanc 8:54

23 Aaron Palushaj 6:36

24 Andreas Eng 6:24

25 Mike Blunden 4:49

Better?

Much better, and done without putting me down too. Thank you

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no, but maybe nokelainen and a couple of the guys in single digit times could have seen more action. Really I don't see why sarcasm has to be used when disagreeing with me, and no attempt to hide your disdain and disrespect. I am happy Martin was fired, I have advanced my reasons and tried to give examples. You are shooting down my examples. If I had not given any you would have been shooting down that. Just because I am not here all the time doesn't make me less a fan or less knowledgeable, or less deserving of respect

Much better, and done without putting me down too. Thank you

No problem. B) I think when you look at that list, that overall the right guys were getting the right amount of ice time. We'd probably like Cole to be a little higher, but then again part of that number on Cole is the limited ice time he got earlier in the year.

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Hockey media is generally dumb, but LeBrun is on my short list of guys I don't find useless. Friedman is probably at the top for me.

I never really had much of an opinion of LeBrun either way. Friedman I like, as well as Bob McKenzie. (Edit: I also like Arpon Basu, who is now writing for NHL.com)

On a related topic, any guesses as to where JM goes from here? Are there any other teams out there who are in the market for a new coach?

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No problem. B) I think when you look at that list, that overall the right guys were getting the right amount of ice time. We'd probably like Cole to be a little higher, but then again part of that number on Cole is the limited ice time he got earlier in the year.

agreed. the issue has been injuries, the underperformance of some of the more talented personnel, added to, IMO, a coach with some serious deficiencies

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Guest habs1952

so you want the top 5 to play close to 24 mins a game?

In the game against the flyers with 9 power plays I think they could have had a little extra gas to get more minutes in the third period. It's not like they had to go through the rigors of skating full out for the 18 minutes with the extra man. If anything the Flyers should have been gassed.

My impression of Martin was a coach standing behind the bench with his arms crossed watching the game and planning what the Habs will practice at their next practice. The man didn't show any emotion. He didn't seem to back up his team.

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no, but maybe nokelainen and a couple of the guys in single digit times could have seen more action.

Fair enough, but that would doing what weeping had posted earlier that Martin would be spreading the ice time around. The part you may have missed:

So, who got less ice time than Darche? Eller had a whopping FIVE SECONDS less than Darche, Kostitsyn just over a minute less, but Kostitsyn also played 4:31 of PP time to Darche's 10 seconds, so obviously Martin was going to give Darche an extra shift at ES to lighten the load. For the rest, the only people playing less than Darche were fourth-line guys (Noke, Weber, Blunden) and one 20-year-old rookie (Leblanc) who's only here because we are missing $13 million in forward payroll to injury (Gomez, Gionta, Moen).

As an example, I have to feel there is a better option than giving Mathieu Darche 16 minutes a night game in game out.

The bolded part is what started this whole conversation, and it has been proven Darche does not average 16 mins of ice time game in and game out. As Beancountinghab said:

lol. Darche has averaged 10:27 of ice time per game this year. The only players averaging less ice time are:

-Nokelainen

-Blunden

-Palushaj

-Engqvist

-Leblanc

Looks like 4th liners and a kid who has played 3 games in the NHL coming off shoulder surgery. Half those names don't belong in the NHL.

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Thanks, Kindred. The original statement was that Darche was playing 16 minutes a night game in and game out, which is factually incorrect. And the initial objection seemed to be that Darche was getting time ahead of skill players, which wasn't the case. If fans want to complain about Darche playing more than Nokelainen or (ugh) Blunden, that's something else, but frankly, it seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. Somebody had to play those minutes, which didn't come at the expense of a skill player.

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I've got a good feeling about what Cunneyworth will bring to the team. His toughest challenge, however, will be to get players to play hard and execute consistently, especially when leading by a couple of goals.

I know a lot of people here thought Martin was just fine, he did the "best he could with what he had" etc., but I think the "best JM could" just doesn't cut it in the NHL any more. He might not have been the first coach who was behind the bench while this team repeatedly melted down on itself and lost games it should have won, but he was certainly one of them. I'm glad for the change.

I still feel that our players could beat anyone if they are managed correctly and play a system designed to maximize their strengths. There are ways to motivate players when those players can't or won't do it themselves. I hope our new coach excels at this.

IMO, pro hockey is still a wide-open field for creative thinking. I'm constantly impressed with highly-talented team play, and amazed with some of the great passing between players who think ahead of the play and develop great positional strategy.

The Canadiens already look like night-and-day in the same game far too often. If they can just get rid of the mistakes from pure sloppiness with good practice habits, and stop laying back to play a "trap" game with a lead, they'll be fine.

Lots of comments on here about how guys like Boucher are doing. Never mind that he took his last-place team to the conference finals in his first season. How many here are willing to bet that Tampa stays in 13th place this year? Let's judge on results, shall we? Yes, JM "took" the Habs to the conference finals two seasons ago, but I, for one, thought we should have beaten Philly after disposing of the two most feared powerhouse teams in the East. Last year, after taking a 2-0 lead on Boston, I believe we should have easily closed that series out 4-1 or maybe 4-2. After the fact, everyone can claim our runs were "unsustainable," but those same people never predicted victories over both Washington and Pittsburgh and a 2-0 lead on visiting ice against #1 Boston.

It's "safe" to say we have a depleted team with a bunch of overpaid underachievers, so that's the reason we're in last place in our division. But pro hockey isn't about being "safe." It's a tough game for tough guys. On the ice, it doesn't matter how much you are getting paid, or how many all-star games you've appeared in. When it's your turn, you step up and do your job.

It will be interesting, to say the least. Who knows? If the Habs find their stride and make the playoffs with some good momentum, anything is possible. (#yesitis) If this team can learn to stop being its own worst enemy, they're half way there already.

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