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Say whatever you want about the uselessness of enforcers but last night was the first time I saw some of our players be brave enough to punch back in scrums, I mean even Weber got in someones grill.

I don't know if there is anything tangible in it but it is noteworthy.

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I would prefer a 5 minute penalty kill to seeing one of our better players injured.

One day Subban will be successfully slew-footed, nobody will retaliate, and fans will spend 4 months posting "When Subban comes back next season we'll be able to compete for 8th place".

When you talk about "scoring a goal on the power play", you confuse battles with wars and tactics with strategy. It's actually legitimate to give up a PP goal in the short-term if it means a psychological edge that can last a year or more.

Near the end of the 2008-09 season, Chara and Lucic double-teamed Komisarek, and punched him in the stomach, and nothing happened after. I have no idea if Boston was afraid of allowing goals scored on the power play (lol). However, when the playoffs followed, they had an easy 4-game sweep against a team that played small.

As for Chara, I don't see him doing that to Pacioretty if we had an enforcer like Chris Neil on the roster. Look at the luck of absolute and total fear on Chara's face after Neil was done with him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/fight-video-senators-chris-neil-hands-zdeno-chara-032458496.html

Colton Orr? Toronto had a great start to the season, but they have sucked for a while. Maybe they're playing small, in the same way the Habs are playing bigger the past two games.

Here's a video of Lucic surrendering against Orr:

I wonder what's been happening since he's been gone.

Habs should sign Orr, Moen and Staubitz this offseason.

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I would prefer a 5 minute penalty kill to seeing one of our better players injured.

One day Subban will be successfully slew-footed, nobody will retaliate, and fans will spend 4 months posting "When Subban comes back next season we'll be able to compete for 8th place".

Even if I concede that, the question becomes does that prevent injuries? If I'm a "rat" and you know Montreal will fly off the handles, don't you keep running at their stars, having their goons come after you and just continually turtle. Get jumped, just go down and cover your face.

Either way, it's a lack of realism. Around the league guys just don't go after guys like that unless they're a willing combatant. It's VERY rare and you'll probably complain about Staubitz like you did Laraque. He only fights goons. Same with Laraque, the only difference may be that less goons were willing to fight Laraque because of his reputation. We'll see how many nonheavy weights Staubitz goes after for dirty plays.

Subban has been slew-footing guys pretty frequently. No one has done anything like that to him.

When you talk about "scoring a goal on the power play", you confuse battles with wars and tactics with strategy. It's actually legitimate to give up a PP goal in the short-term if it means a psychological edge that can last a year or more.

Near the end of the 2008-09 season, Chara and Lucic double-teamed Komisarek, and punched him in the stomach, and nothing happened after. I have no idea if Boston was afraid of allowing goals scored on the power play (lol). However, when the playoffs followed, they had an easy 4-game sweep against a team that played small.

I don't really know what you're talking about, I never talked about scoring a goal on the power play? I said there are guys who will know if we fly off the handle there's a quick way to draw a 5 minute PP but no team flies off the handle like that. Even Boston, countless injuries and big hits on star players and what have they done about it? Fight a willing combatant. Hockey fights are generally just boring wrestling matches anyway.

Boston swept a team that didn't play D, had shoddy goaltending and not nearly as much talent. It's funny though, since then we've dominated Boston. Them with all their toughness and small, weak us.

As for Chara, I don't see him doing that to Pacioretty if we had an enforcer like Chris Neil on the roster. Look at the luck of absolute and total fear on Chara's face after Neil was done with him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/fight-video-senators-chris-neil-hands-zdeno-chara-032458496.html

Colton Orr? Toronto had a great start to the season, but they have sucked for a while. Maybe they're playing small, in the same way the Habs are playing bigger the past two games.

Here's a video of Lucic surrendering against Orr:

I wonder what's been happening since he's been gone.

Habs should sign Orr, Moen and Staubitz this offseason.

It makes me laugh you keep bringing up Neil, he's not even a heavyweight. He's a good player and he'll stand up and fight but he's not a heavy weight. That fight was crap. Neil was the guy who took a run at a guy earlier in the game, Chara went after him, he agreed to fight. Neil didn't land 1 punch in that fight, not 1 and he wrestled Chara to the ground. Do you REALLY think Chara is scared of Neil?

As for Lucic surrendering against Orr, Lucic didn't change his game vs Toronto AT all. Boston has continued to own Toronto since then and Orr has now cleared waivers and in the AHL. So you're the one talking about the battle and the war. Who won the battle there and who won the war?

We can't sign Orr, he's under contract next year. We, along with 28 other teams, could have claimed him for free on waivers though, which no one did.

I'm not anti toughness but it's pretty clear the goon role is dying. If you want players who can play, like Neil or more high end examples like Chara and Lucic then great. Fine. But as for having Orr and Staubitz on this team next year I don't see the value. I see no correlation with tough teams and players suffering less injuries.

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Saying Grabovski wouldn't have hit Markov and injured him(when Markov went into the boards awkwardly, fyi) if we had an enforcer is such bogus. Players do what they want. Clutterbuck kneed Bourque last night, someone on Minny hit Emelin from behind and Staubitz was on the ice. Staubitz didn't even try to fight him. Having an enforcer doesn't put a protective shield around your players.

I'm not saying I don't want enforcer for when we're being pushed around, but to say that none of these injuries would happen if we had an enforcer, I'm sorry, but it is downright laughable.

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The reason Neil didn't land a punch is because the referees got in the way.

Sometimes refs stop a fight before there's blood, sometimes they allow a lot of damage to takes place. I do not know what the reasoning is. In this case the refs rescued Chara.

I can't speak for the other teams that didn't pick up Orr. A lot of them already have enforcers, and thus they don't need Orr.

What do you think of Glen Sather's 4-year, big bucks contract to Boogarde? He's one of the best GMs in the game. He has recently replaced Boogarde with John Scott.

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The reason Neil didn't land a punch is because the referees got in the way.

Sometimes refs stop a fight before there's blood, sometimes they allow a lot of damage to takes place. I do not know what the reasoning is. In this case the refs rescued Chara.

I can't speak for the other teams that didn't pick up Orr. A lot of them already have enforcers, and thus they don't need Orr.

What do you think of Glen Sather's 4-year, big bucks contract to Boogarde? He's one of the best GMs in the game. He has recently replaced Boogarde with John Scott.

He hands out some of the worst contracts in the game and he's a bit stuck in the past. I mean, they've done a fabulous job drafting and developing but I don't know that I agree he's one of the best GM's in the game. He has a huge name but until this year (lead by mostly drafted/developed players) they've been as mediocre as us during his tenure and have spent a lot of money.

Ken Holland is the best GM in the game and his team frequently is at the bottom of the league in fighting majors. I mean, it's more that having tough guys who can play is fine, having useless goons is continuing to die.

Anyway, Neil was mostly lucky to get out of that fight with Chara off balance, he was playing defense for the most part. I think it was cool to see the 5'10 Neil not back down from Chara and not get destroyed but does anyone think Chris Neil will impact the way Chara plays against Ottawa? Anyway, like I said, that was Chara going after Neil and not vice versa.

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Saying Grabovski wouldn't have hit Markov and injured him(when Markov went into the boards awkwardly, fyi) if we had an enforcer is such bogus. Players do what they want. Clutterbuck kneed Bourque last night, someone on Minny hit Emelin from behind and Staubitz was on the ice. Staubitz didn't even try to fight him. Having an enforcer doesn't put a protective shield around your players.

I'm not saying I don't want enforcer for when we're being pushed around, but to say that none of these injuries would happen if we had an enforcer, I'm sorry, but it is downright laughable.

Dead on. Build a tough team that can play and I'm fine, having a goon doesn't mean what it used to mean though. People were mad at BGL but the reality is that's what a goon does today, challenges the other team's goon to a fight, if he agrees they drop and if he doesn't they don't.

After White's incident last night Matt Kassian clearly challenged him to a fight, Kassian is MUCH bigger than White and in a different weight class. White appeared to just basically laugh in his face and continue chirping.

Anyway, just talking about goons playing on successful teams is a crap argument. Where's ANY evidence it's stopping players from taking runs at their stars? I've seen guys take runs at Bruins star players, we've seen guys take runs at Crosby, we've seen a lot of crap like that all over the league. Burke said the rats are winning, I don't know if I agree with him but there's no doubt vigilantism around the league isn't what it used to be, thankfully.

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The reason Neil didn't land a punch is because the referees got in the way.

Sometimes refs stop a fight before there's blood, sometimes they allow a lot of damage to takes place. I do not know what the reasoning is. In this case the refs rescued Chara.

I can't speak for the other teams that didn't pick up Orr. A lot of them already have enforcers, and thus they don't need Orr.

What do you think of Glen Sather's 4-year, big bucks contract to Boogarde? He's one of the best GMs in the game. He has recently replaced Boogarde with John Scott.

I completely disagree that Sather is one of the best GM's in hockey. The NYR have some good scouts, and we were dumb enough to give them McDonagh for Gomez. As for the current discussion, I'm fine with signing Staubitz for 1 year at league minimum in late July/August if we have our major pieces locked up. Otherwise, I don't care, guys like him are a dime a dozen. I don't think anyone here would say that team toughness is a bad thing, but there's a difference between Chris Neil and Staubitz. Guys like Neil are valuable, they're tough, and can play. Guys like Staubitz are goons who aren't good for much other than fighting. That's the difference.

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Guest habs1952

I've always been of firm believer of protecting your team mates. If a team runs your good players you need someone to run their good players. If it takes a good fourth line of rough and tumble players, who can still play the game with some effectiveness, I'm all for it.

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I've always been of firm believer of protecting your team mates. If a team runs your good players you need someone to run their good players. If it takes a good fourth line of rough and tumble players, who can still play the game with some effectiveness, I'm all for it.

Nicely said there monkey face :rolleyes:

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I've always been of firm believer of protecting your team mates. If a team runs your good players you need someone to run their good players. If it takes a good fourth line of rough and tumble players, who can still play the game with some effectiveness, I'm all for it.

Whats with the new sig 52??? Chara envy???? :lol: :lol: :P

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Dead on. Build a tough team that can play and I'm fine, having a goon doesn't mean what it used to mean though. People were mad at BGL but the reality is that's what a goon does today, challenges the other team's goon to a fight, if he agrees they drop and if he doesn't they don't.

After White's incident last night Matt Kassian clearly challenged him to a fight, Kassian is MUCH bigger than White and in a different weight class. White appeared to just basically laugh in his face and continue chirping.

Anyway, just talking about goons playing on successful teams is a crap argument. Where's ANY evidence it's stopping players from taking runs at their stars? I've seen guys take runs at Bruins star players, we've seen guys take runs at Crosby, we've seen a lot of crap like that all over the league. Burke said the rats are winning, I don't know if I agree with him but there's no doubt vigilantism around the league isn't what it used to be, thankfully.

There is a huge difference when a team is filled with guys who can fight. If you go into Boston, New York, Philly, WSH, etc.. and nail one of their star players, you will pay a price. If not that game, then the next.

The other obvious thing is, these teams can run almost any team out of the building if they choose & especially if they are losing.

Why do you think the NYRs grabbed John Scott? Why does Pitts have Big Mac?

I'll agree that what we once knew as a goon, is now becoming obsolete. However make no mistake, the NHL is not going soft, the players being drafted will be like Lucic, Thornton, Rupp, Prust, Z. Kassian, Sestito (sp?), Rosehill etc... players who can play 10mins or more, can hit , fight, skate, & offer some scoring.

People talk about getting a player like this for MTL, after we get out major players signed in the offseason. What major players? This team needs players like a Neil, Parros, Prust etc.. We already laid our egg with major players when we got Gionta, Gomez, Markov, Kaberle, Cole etc..

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Well I thought we were a hockey team and this guy does nothing for the score. I never wanted to get rid of Ak in the first place,at least he scored some goals now we have nothing,having some one who will fight will not help us win games and BG doesn't look like much help either,bad move.

GO HABS GO :o :o

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Well I thought we were a hockey team and this guy does nothing for the score. I never wanted to get rid of Ak in the first place,at least he scored some goals now we have nothing,having some one who will fight will not help us win games and BG doesn't look like much help either,bad move.

GO HABS GO :o :o

Oh my.

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I'm not against team toughness as a rule, so don't take this post as such, but I do want to point out that for a few years there we were enjoying a fair bit of success by goading the other team into taking penalties and then burning them with our PP. How many years in a row did we have the best power play in the league? The year that we came first in the conference we had abysmal 5-on-5 play and pretty much rode the Kovalev power play show all the way to number one.

Again I'm not saying that toughness is a bad thing, all I'm saying is that there's more than one way to skin a cat ;)

Hey Manatee. I appreciate your response. I think I usually agree with your posts. I thought about your point with the powerplay goals before I wrote my post. Those years are still fresh in my mind too. I sure did like the extra powerplays at the time but it came with the cost of being ridiculed by the entire NHL and it's fans for being a dirty team that can't back up their actions on the ice. It certainly left me ashamed of the Habs. The shame that fans felt must be nothing compared to how the team must feel knowing that the league thinks they're weak and knowing there is nothing they can do to prove them wrong. To have no choice but to get punched in the head after every wistle and have to respond by saying thank you sir, may I have another. For me this can't be the base on which you build a cup contender. You need the respect of your opponent and if you can't have it then you must take it.

Something else I would like to stress and this isn't directed at you specifically Manatee, it's kind of a reminder to everyone. It seems that even some of the mods need reminding that this team we watch every week isn't an EA Sports NHL video game! If someone gets smoked out on the ice by a check or a fist or whatever, you can't just reset the game and ice the same team, that guy is gone and he's in pain. You can't say oh well, are guy just got a concussion from being hit from behind. Nobody retaliate because we will miss a powerplay chance. NO....you retaliate and screw the powerplay chance!

Personally this is the direction I think the NHL is going in and I don't want the Habs to wake up three years from now and find that they have missed the train.

I know that Staubitz isn't the ideal guy and I would rather have a Clarkson or a Neil but Montreal doesn't sign guys of that caliber and they certainly don't make the slightest effort to draft them. So the Canadien's only option is to sign a goon. It must be a choice the Habs made years ago and are comfortable with?

Also, after the lockout refereeing was so bad that it was right off the chart. Refs didn't know what to call and the players didn't know where the limit was. The refs are perfect in today's game compared to then as sad as that sounds. So teams were getting 12 powerplays per game each on a regular basis. The best powerplay teams went to the top of the league. That's the only reason why a team that couldn't score a goal 5 on 5 to save it's life was able to finish 1st in the east.

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You need toughness, period. Whether MTL jumps on the boat or lets the ship pass by once again, we'll see. But I hope PG has awakened from the idea that a team of speedy little guys are going to win us championships.

There is a difference between being tough and being rough we need toughness no argument there but staged fights,what a come down,but our most immediate need is scorers,we are not at the bottom because we couldn't fight we are the bottom because we can't score.If i wanted to watch 60 minutes of fighting then that is what I would do,but I want to see good strong tough hockey.You can't win standing about watching some one fighting and the penalties that takes,get on and play

GO HABS GO :lol: :lol:

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Im not necessarily saying that an enforcer cant help a team, my point was moreso that over the last 2-3 years, 99% of the injuries we have had would not have been prevented if we had an enforcer in the lineup. Even the chara incident is abit of a stretch.

You are right. That's fair. It is a stretch. Probably not as big of a stretch as saying 99.999999% of our injuries wouldn't have been prevented. Both statements are completely unprovable. It would be like trying to prove god does or does not exist. Unless you put an enforcer on the team for a year. Account for how many injuries there were and to whom they were delivered, then travel back in time and you don't sign the enforcer and you count up all the injuries again.

Also, just to be clear. The Chara scenario I suggested was just that, a scenario. I don't necessarily know which situations having an enforcer would effect but I'm confident it would have effected some of them. The only shed of truth I can point to is the Habs. Look at how they played before they got Staubitz and look at the way they play now. They went from being a ringette team to being a hockey team over night! What changed? Why did they stop playing scared? What makes them think they should have permission to go out there and play there game all of a sudden? Did something significant change? Is it because Nokelainen is back in the line up?

I haven't heard one person on this forum say, this team is not playing like they are a half a foot taller than a week ago. Everyone I talk to notices it. Even all the Montreal haters can notice it! You said it's not that an enforcer can't help a team. Well if not by coming to players rescue or intimidation, then how?

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You need toughness, period. Whether MTL jumps on the boat or lets the ship pass by once again, we'll see. But I hope PG has awakened from the idea that a team of speedy little guys are going to win us championships.

Detroit have been one of the best teams in the league for the last 15 years almost..Someone can help me out here but I cant recall them having Brad Staubitz' on their team, and they've won multiple championchips. Yes you need to have some "toughness" on your team..but 4 minute a night goons who cant play a regular shift arent going to win you a championchip, nor will they prevent injuries.

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Amen to this!

He gets it!

Two years ago, near the end of the 2008-09 season, a Toronto player reinjured Andrei Markov.

We are an easy target if we do not have any real enforcers.

Staubitz is just part of what he needs. We need a group of enforcers.

However, some of you would rather be able to complain that we would be such a great team if we did not lead the league in injuries.

This!

If we had bostons fourth line of enforcers that can play at a certain level we'd all be for it, like parros

Now yer talkin!!!

I'd still rather offer Arron Asham a contract if Pittsburgh allows him to walk this summer.

Sold!!! :lol:

Seem's to understand his role and perform it well. Him and white clearly add some spark to the line up.

That's right!!

I know the enforcer role is diminishing but haven't you noticed that everyone seems to be played bigger, hitting more and we're playing with more sandpaper since we got this guy? Burke says alot of things but that doesn't mean he's right in fact he's done a subpar job with that team so far. I'd rather they play a smash mouth game down the stretch it's far more entertaining that's for sure :lol:

Everyone notices!!!

Roy,

Just because Laraque was useless as an enforcer does not mean that enforcers are useless. It is an argument that shows up a lot, and a bad one.

In this case, punk Grabovski got away with it. He knew he could.

Also, do you think Chara would have nearly killed Pacioretty if we had Chris Neil, Evgeny Artyukhin, or any other player capable (and willing) of bashing Chara on our team?

Let's expand the sample size by thinking of other teams.

What do you think of Lucic bashing Ryan Miller earlier in the year? For Lucic, he knows that Buffalo is an obstacle, and therefore that Miller is an obstacle. Ergo, he injured Miller in order to improve Boston's regular season performance. That's how I see it.

That's because that's how it works!!! :D

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