2013-2014 State Of The Habs

[hatethosebruins]

Not an overly huge Armstrong fan, but to play the devil's advocate (against myself?), we heard a lot of talk from Habs players this year about how the chemistry in the room was better... no more Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Martin, Cunneyworth, Cole, etc. and we've seen guys like Prust, Bouillon, Armstrong, Gallagher, Therrien brought in... I don't think we can look at the team and say it is boat-loads more talented than last year's. We had better coaching (but to what degree is that really lifting play?), we had some young guys who produced, and we had better luck with injuries (until we hit the playoffs)... but to what degree does this idea of "chemistry" play a role? And is it possible that a guy like Armstrong, whom multiple players and coaches have cited as being very popular in the room, brings more to the table than we can objectively measure on the ice? The impact of intangibles is almost impossible to measure, but while some (myself included) like the idea of bringing in a younger, faster, more physical or better skilled guy to play the 3rd and 4th lines, I wonder whether management, who have a much better idea of how the locker room works, feels Armstrong brings more to the table that we can't see as a fan. The other major factor for Armstrong is that we somewhat underpaid him as a free agent because he was still receiving salary from the buyout in Toronto. I don't think any of us feel he's worth more than 1M but maybe he does and his asking price may be higher than what it was this past year.

While he managed to stay healthy, and started the season, IMO, actually playing pretty well. He clearly wore down as the season went on and looked like he had cement in his skates. Can still remember that breakaway vs Ottawa where he looked like a timbits player skating.

I can't see him asking for more than what hes already making. At most, id give him 1.25 mil

[BeanCountingHab]

My philosophy is you shouldn't forgo better players because of another guy's character or because "he's good in the room". But when we're talking about inter-changeable role playing guys like 4th line wingers (where you can find a large pool of guys who will perform a similar role for a similar price), I think it's perfectly reasonable and even preferable to bring character/chemistry in to the mix when determining whether to retain/acquire them.

That's why I won't mind if Colby comes back.

[KeepsItReal]

My philosophy is you shouldn't forgo better players because of another guy's character or because "he's good in the room". But when we're talking about inter-changeable role playing guys like 4th line wingers (where you can find a large pool of guys who will perform a similar role for a similar price), I think it's perfectly reasonable and even preferable to bring character/chemistry in to the mix when determining whether to retain/acquire them.

That's why I won't mind if Colby comes back.

I'd like to see them give him 2 years and 875K

[MMAMIKE1981]

Ryder- has already been told hes not coming back.

Halpern- does bring some things to the team like FO's and PK but I think Dumont showed last year hes ready to take that spot if White isn't brought back.

Armstrong is a good chemistry guy but unfortunately doesn't have much more then that to offer. Good guy but I would let him go.

White- I would give him another year to get his crap together. Like Armstrong he is liked in the locker room but hits and fights more. He has more to give while playing a similar role. Just needs to keep it together.

Dumont- I would bring him back. Good faceoff % although in limited chances. 60%+ in aprox 45 draws. Good energy guy but the downside is hes another smaller forward.

Blunden- is a depth guy and will be replaced unless he has a good year. He has good size and could be a good fill in if needed.

Weber- was hurt most of last year and was passed by Tinordi and Beaulieu on the depth chart but could possibly have a good camp and earn a spot? There is no need to rush Tinordi or Beaulieu is someone else steps up.

Ryder, Halpern and Armstrong would be let go and I would sign the 4 RFA's to 1 year "prove yourself" deals.

If we can find someone to come in to support Prust like Ryan Clowe and a Physical bottom 6 Defenceman like Fistric for cheap until Emelin is back I would be happy. DD needs to step it up and be a top 6 center because hes not good enough defensively for the 3rd line and Moen need to have a better year as well. If those things happen and we can stay healthy I like our chances this year. I also think some of the young players will challenge for a spot on the team. Kristo, Leblanc, Bournivale, Colberg (if he isn't back in Sweden) and Nygren should all make things interesting.

[KeepsItReal]

Dunno why people keep saying DD isn't good enough defensively for the 3rd line.

3rd lines usually face lesser defensive match ups...the Habs this past season were a team with 3 scoring lines and an energy/checking line. DD can easily be a point getter on a 3rd line playing against lesser defensive opponents.

Put him with a couple of guys with size (I vote for Prust and Bourque personally) and roll those 3 lines just like they did this previous season.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta

Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher

Prust-Desharnais-Bourque

Moen/Dumont/White/Armstrong/Blunden

Love that line up. Could switch Gionta and Gallagher too, give that young buck line some veteran savvy and give the Plekx/Pac line a real grinding spit fire kinda guy.

[MMAMIKE1981]

Personally I would prefer a bigger checking center for the 3rd line but I agree that's where he is going to have to play. Unfortunately Plecanek is a better 2nd line center however Galchenyuk isn't ready to be the #1 yet. Gionta is almost a 3rd line guy now to? If not this year the next? Maybe Gallagher on the 1st, Bourque on the 2nd and Gionta 3rd?

[KeepsItReal]

Personally I would prefer a bigger checking center for the 3rd line but I agree that's where he is going to have to play. Unfortunately Plecanek is a better 2nd line center however Galchenyuk isn't ready to be the #1 yet. Gionta is almost a 3rd line guy now to? If not this year the next? Maybe Gallagher on the 1st, Bourque on the 2nd and Gionta 3rd?

Looking at it in a "classical" line 1, line 2, line 3 scenario

Strength in numbers. Between Eller, Plekx and Desharnais I really like the center depth this team has for the next season, and knowing that if any one of them go down Galchenyuk can slide into the middle is really reassuring. Haven't had depth like this in years.

[weepingminotaur]

Dunno why people keep saying DD isn't good enough defensively for the 3rd line.

3rd lines usually face lesser defensive match ups...the Habs this past season were a team with 3 scoring lines and an energy/checking line. DD can easily be a point getter on a 3rd line playing against lesser defensive opponents.

Put him with a couple of guys with size (I vote for Prust and Bourque personally) and roll those 3 lines just like they did this previous season.

Well, that's what we're going to have to do, but the thing is: he's not proven in that role. Thus far, he's only been able to put up points with two bull skill wingers, seeing heavily skewed OZone and PP time. What happens when you take him away from Pacioretty, when you scale his ice time back, when you start giving him more Dzone faceoffs? Will there be anything left? The hope is that he can reinvent himself and be effective in precisely the third-line capacity you're talking about. But it's just a hope and nothing more at the moment. If he can't maintain a production pace to justify the contract, it will put us in a bind, because he's not strong enough defensively to contribute in other ways besides playmaking / scoring.

Having said all that, I think your idea for DD is solid and worth pursuing. I just hope Therrien can take off the DD Cheerleader Goggles and do what's best for the team.

[BeanCountingHab]

Well, that's what we're going to have to do, but the thing is: he's not proven in that role. Thus far, he's only been able to put up points with two bull skill wingers, seeing heavily skewed OZone and PP time. What happens when you take him away from Pacioretty, when you scale his ice time back, when you start giving him more Dzone faceoffs? Will there be anything left? The hope is that he can reinvent himself and be effective in precisely the third-line capacity you're talking about. But it's just a hope and nothing more at the moment. If he can't maintain a production pace to justify the contract, it will put us in a bind, because he's not strong enough defensively to contribute in other ways besides playmaking / scoring.

Having said all that, I think your idea for DD is solid and worth pursuing. I just hope Therrien can take off the DD Cheerleader Goggles and do what's best for the team.

We say this, and I'm not saying it isn't valid, but I think it's easy to forget he didn't just walk into the league and get slotted between an emerging Patches and resurgent Cole. The reason he got promoted relatively quickly was because he was able to produce in the bottom 6.

His first half season (2010-11) he was putting up 0.5 PPG from the bottom 6, averaging under 13 minutes of ice time a night. Even with PP time (which he was getting), that's very productive for playing in the bottom half of your lineup, and that's with less offensive depth than we have now. It's not definitive proof he can thrive as a utility/3rd line guy but it's a least a bit of evidence that suggests it's entirely possible.

Before we staple him to the 3rd line though, I really want to try him at wing. He does fine on the cycle and is good around the net, the main differences I see in having him play wing will be less defensive responsibility and less reliance on him to consistently gain the zone which I think will only help him.

[weepingminotaur]

We say this, and I'm not saying it isn't valid, but I think it's easy to forget he didn't just walk into the league and get slotted between an emerging Patches and resurgent Cole. The reason he got promoted relatively quickly was because he was able to produce in the bottom 6.

His first half season (2010-11) he was putting up 0.5 PPG from the bottom 6, averaging under 13 minutes of ice time a night. Even with PP time (which he was getting), that's very productive for playing in the bottom half of your lineup, and that's with less offensive depth than we have now. It's not definitive proof he can thrive as a utility/3rd line guy but it's a least a bit of evidence that suggests it's entirely possible.

Very small sample size, though, and I'd say his promotion had as much to do with Gomez going completely in the tank as with his production. But it's a fair point.

Before we staple him to the 3rd line though, I really want to try him at wing. He does fine on the cycle and is good around the net, the main differences I see in having him play wing will be less defensive responsibility and less reliance on him to consistently gain the zone which I think will only help him.

If he's to be a winger, we need someone on that line to shoot the puck, because he doesn't shoot enough and doesn't have a strong enough shot to produce goals at a winger's clip. I'm not averse to trying it, but then the question becomes: who centers him? If we using DD on the third line, it means Eller is on the top line. Do we want Galchenyuk centering DD when Gally has barely played center at the NHL level and is still very poor on draws?

[BeanCountingHab]

Very small sample size, though, and I'd say his promotion had as much to do with Gomez going completely in the tank as with his production. But it's a fair point.

If he's to be a winger, we need someone on that line to shoot the puck, because he doesn't shoot enough and doesn't have a strong enough shot to produce goals at a winger's clip. I'm not averse to trying it, but then the question becomes: who centers him? If we using DD on the third line, it means Eller is on the top line. Do we want Galchenyuk centering DD when Gally has barely played center at the NHL level and is still very poor on draws?

In 2011-2012 (his first full season), yes I agree Gomez tailing off sparked his promotion. I was talking more about the 2010-2011 season, his rookie season, where he started the year in the AHL. That year Gomez was still being used as a top 6 center with some success between Gionta and Paccioretty (once he was promoted) and he spent that entire season (which for him was the second half of the season) in the bottom 6.

When I suggested him on wing, I actually envisaged Eller centering him and Patches. That scenario would count on Gallagher being able to play Gionta's role on the second line, which I think he is capable of, even if it isn't a perfect transition.

[weepingminotaur]

In 2011-2012 (his first full season), yes I agree Gomez tailing off sparked his promotion. I was talking more about the 2010-2011 season, his rookie season, where he started the year in the AHL. That year Gomez was still being used as a top 6 center with some success between Gionta and Paccioretty (once he was promoted) and he spent that entire season (which for him was the second half of the season) in the bottom 6.

Right, but I was saying that good production or not in 2010-11, he wouldn't have gotten a chance had Gomez not completely messed the bed the following season. I agree that he showed something in limited opportunity in 2010-11.

When I suggested him on wing, I actually envisaged Eller centering him and Patches. That scenario would count on Gallagher being able to play Gionta's role on the second line, which I think he is capable of, even if it isn't a perfect transition.

Hmm. I don't want DD on the top line as a center; even less do I want him there as a winger. At this point, the top 1A offense line should feature our top wingers (Pacioretty and Gallagher) flanked by the center with the most upside. That's either Eller or Galchenyuk to me, not DD. We're at the point where we absolutely need to find out what we have in Eller IMO.

[KeepsItReal]

Right, but I was saying that good production or not in 2010-11, he wouldn't have gotten a chance had Gomez not completely messed the bed the following season. I agree that he showed something in limited opportunity in 2010-11.

Hmm. I don't want DD on the top line as a center; even less do I want him there as a winger. At this point, the top 1A offense line should feature our top wingers (Pacioretty and Gallagher) flanked by the center with the most upside. That's either Eller or Galchenyuk to me, not DD. We're at the point where we absolutely need to find out what we have in Eller IMO.

Why should our top 2 wingers (debateable if Gallagher is there yet, I'd tend to err on the side of caution and then some) play with the center with the most upside as opposed to the best center on the team?

[weepingminotaur]

Why should our top 2 wingers (debateable if Gallagher is there yet, I'd tend to err on the side of caution and then some) play with the center with the most upside as opposed to the best center on the team?

1. Yes, it's debatable about Gallagher, but I'd still put him above Gionta and Bourque at this point.

2. Leaving aside the issue of whether DD is the "best center on the team" (I disagree with that assessment, but let's take it as a given), we are trying to ice a top line that will eventually be better than what we have now. So the hope is to have a center who can post up better numbers than Desharnais without as much massaging, and who has the size and to be effective at the net. If all we want to do is replicate the past, sure, let's keep DD with Pacioretty. IMO we've reached the limit of what we can get there, and it's becoming quite important for us to see whether Lars can thrive in a legit offensive role. If he can't, Desharnais is a nice fallback option in the short term, but one way or another, we need to get that process underway.

[KeepsItReal]

1. Yes, it's debatable about Gallagher, but I'd still put him above Gionta and Bourque at this point.

2. Leaving aside the issue of whether DD is the "best center on the team" (I disagree with that assessment, but let's take it as a given), we are trying to ice a top line that will eventually be better than what we have now. So the hope is to have a center who can post up better numbers than Desharnais without as much massaging, and who has the size and to be effective at the net. If all we want to do is replicate the past, sure, let's keep DD with Pacioretty. IMO we've reached the limit of what we can get there, and it's becoming quite important for us to see whether Lars can thrive in a legit offensive role. If he can't, Desharnais is a nice fallback option in the short term, but one way or another, we need to get that process underway.

1) Bourque is a very solid 2 way player, Gallagher will get there in time but there's no way he's as good of an all around player. I'd say if he can stay healthy Bourque is definitely better at this time than Gallagher. I'm also quite confident either through trade or UFA they will add another winger who will likely be better than Gallagher. People insult Desharnais for his "cushy" minutes all the time but Gallagher got the exact same treatment and no one ever mentions it.

2) You seem to misunderstand me about who I think the teams' best center is...

[weepingminotaur]

1) Bourque is a very solid 2 way player, Gallagher will get there in time but there's no way he's as good of an all around player. I'd say if he can stay healthy Bourque is definitely better at this time than Gallagher. I'm also quite confident either through trade or UFA they will add another winger who will likely be better than Gallagher. People insult Desharnais for his "cushy" minutes all the time but Gallagher got the exact same treatment and no one ever mentions it.

I was speaking in a purely offensive role, discounting two-way play. To me, a line of Pacioretty-CenterX-Gallagher should be focused on scoring. Your confidence in UFA or trade acquisitions is fine, but I'm talking about the roster as we see it right now. Obviously, if we add someone with more scoring punch than Gallagher, all bets are off, but right now, Gallagher is our second-best scoring winger behind Pacioretty.

2) You seem to misunderstand me about who I think the teams' best center is...

Then explain yourself, because your initial post wasn't clear...

[KeepsItReal]

I was speaking in a purely offensive role, discounting two-way play. To me, a line of Pacioretty-CenterX-Gallagher should be focused on scoring. Your confidence in UFA or trade acquisitions is fine, but I'm talking about the roster as we see it right now. Obviously, if we add someone with more scoring punch than Gallagher, all bets are off, but right now, Gallagher is our second-best scoring winger behind Pacioretty.

Then explain yourself, because your initial post wasn't clear...

<EDIT>

Anyways, Plekanec is obviously this teams 'best center.

Please try to stay on topic, debate all you want about possible moves, but please keep personal debates out of it.

This goes for all threads and all members.

Thank you,

FirstStar

Moderator

[FirstStar]

<EDIT>

Anyways, Plekanec is obviously this teams 'best center.

Please try to stay on topic, debate all you want about possible moves, but please keep personal debates out of it.

This goes for all threads and all members.

Thank you,

FirstStar

Moderator

I agree, Pleks is our best centre, hands down.

[BigTed3]

In terms of all-around talent and ability to produce at both ends right now, I'd rank our centers as

1. Plekanec

2. Eller

3. Desharnais

4. Galchenyuk (in the role of a center)

In terms of where I see guys in 3-5 years, it'd be more like:

1. Galchenyuk

2. Eller

3. Plekanec

4. Desharnais

That being said, it doesn't always mean you need to play your best center with your best wingers. That's the beauty of coaching. You can stockpile best overall players on one line, combine offensive guys on one line and defensive guys on another, or just mix and match based on chemistry and hot streaks. At the end of the day, no matter what any of us propose now, those thoughts will change over time as our opinions of players evolve and we gain more experience of seeing those players perform in different situations.

If camp were to start today, I'd like to see Therrien go with Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher as the "top line." That doesn't necessarily mean the most minutes or hardest opposition, but those would be the guys I'd give the 1st PP time to, and it would be a line I'd give top 6 minutes to at ES and which I would stick with for at least 20 games. While Plekanec is the better player, I like the chemistry he developed with Bourque last year and feel they can be an effective two-way duo. Who plays with them depends on off-season moves, Gionta's status after he recovers, and who steps up. With Bourque's ability to play both wings though, it gives flexibility as to who you can put there. Maybe a guy like Leblanc or Kristo steps up. Maybe Galchenyuk is ready. Maybe Gionta shows a full recovery. Maybe we go after a guy like Iginla or Jagr or Horton. At the end of the day, I'd like to see Galchenyuk given a bigger role and at least get PP time on a regular basis, but I also think we have time to develop him. In Eller's case, I think he's clearly a guy who's earned a promotion into the top 6 to start the season, based both on his play last year and based on the projections I posted above, whereby he's likely going to be one of the two top centers here in the medium-to-long term as well.

It doesn't mean you have to ignore Desharnais, who has the ability to produce at an NHL level, but who in my opinion, was out-worked by Eller last year. Barring some surprise trade value, he's going to be a part of this team going forward, but I'd like to see MT put the onus on Desharnais to earn his playing time. He was one of the few players last year who had big minutes and PP time handed to him on a silver platter irrespective of his actual performance and that has to change. But on the other hand, if DD can show good things on the 3rd line, he should be permitted, like every other player, to work his way back into the top 6 and onto the first PP unit. Plus, we all know that injuries will happen at some point, so regardless of what line combinations we devise to begin the season, the opportunity will come for the guys who don't get the top jobs initially. Not everyone is going to play well at once, but the nice thing about having depth is that not everyone has to. MT has the opportunity to shuffle his deck and go with the hot hand as he sees fit, and at the end of the day, there will be the chance for each of the top 9 guys to earn their playing time and linemates.

[weepingminotaur]

Ted, I'd like to see DD earn that top-line spot too, but my gut feeling is that we'll see him there at the start of next year, and it will take severe underperformance for maybe half a season before we see Eller slotted into that spot. I hope to be wrong.

From where I'm standing, the goal in the medium to long term should be to replace DD on the top offense-only line with Galchenyuk, and Plekanec on the 1B two-way scoring line with Eller. But in the interim, there will be a transition period where Eller (hopefully) grabs the reins from DD and demonstrates his readiness to play those minutes. We can then slid DD into a third-line role for a year or two, and then maybe flip him once Galchenyuk is ready and that third-line spot would be filled more capably by Plekanec as the latter enters the twilight of his career.

I also agree that Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher should be our top offensive line. At this point, we need to know what we have in Eller.

[BigTed3]

Ted, I'd like to see DD earn that top-line spot too, but my gut feeling is that we'll see him there at the start of next year, and it will take severe underperformance for maybe half a season before we see Eller slotted into that spot. I hope to be wrong.

From where I'm standing, the goal in the medium to long term should be to replace DD on the top offense-only line with Galchenyuk, and Plekanec on the 1B two-way scoring line with Eller. But in the interim, there will be a transition period where Eller (hopefully) grabs the reins from DD and demonstrates his readiness to play those minutes. We can then slid DD into a third-line role for a year or two, and then maybe flip him once Galchenyuk is ready and that third-line spot would be filled more capably by Plekanec as the latter enters the twilight of his career.

I also agree that Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher should be our top offensive line. At this point, we need to know what we have in Eller.

Agreed on all counts. It seems like the most sensible plan for the team going forward. That can all change if an injury or interesting trade/signing opportunity comes up, but based on what MB is working with now, that should be the de facto Plan A.

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

Alright folks, as Larry said, it's time to start talking about the 2013-14 edition of the team. Feel free to post your thoughts on where this team stands right now and what needs to be done to make it a better squad!

I apologize if I started this thread prematurely. However, I would like this to be a tradition with me - to be the one who sarts up the State of the Habs threads every year. Not to be selfish or anything, but because I love the Habs so much and want this to be somewhat of a signature thing with me and of course, to share with all of you.

[Guest Regis2]

State of the 2013/2014 Habs...........

http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

I know it's July but that's an awfully small roster ............in size

And the " new " division next year, should be interesting

Division C has four Original Six franchises: the Boston Bruins, Detroit Red Wings, Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs. The Buffalo Sabres, Florida Panthers, Ottawa Senators and Tampa Bay Lightning are also in the division.

[KeepsItReal]

State of the 2013/2014 Habs...........

http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

I know it's July but that's an awfully small roster ............in size

And the " new " division next year, should be interesting

Division C has four Original Six franchises: the Boston Bruins, Detroit Red Wings, Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs. The Buffalo Sabres, Florida Panthers, Ottawa Senators and Tampa Bay Lightning are also in the division.

They're a bit small on the back end, but might have the best puck moving defence in the entire league.

As for up front....I see plenty of size, there's a couple of "small" players, but they are outnumbered by bigger guys, and 2 of the small guys are the ones that make their line go.

[Guest Regis2]

As for up front....I see plenty of size,

I guess we have a difference of opinion of what constitutes " size "

There's 5 or 6 guys over 6 ft and maybe 2 of them play like it but I'm sure they all have " character "