2013-14 Michel Therrien and staff

[jennifer_rocket]

This season is already starting to take a turn for the worse with all of the Subban/Therrien "issues" and our record.

.500 hockey is not going to be good enough to make the post-season.

[habby4ever]

An open letter to Michel Therrien

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/11/6/5072030/an-open-letter-to-michel-therrien

[Manatee-X]

An open letter to Michel Therrien

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/11/6/5072030/an-open-letter-to-michel-therrien

Thanks for sharing, Habby. To me this was the most interesting part of that article:

You [Therrien] are using Subban in tough defensive minutes. He had the lowest percentage of offensive zone starts among all defensemen against the Blues. He's dominating in those minutes, and you're usually playing him more than any other defenseman at even strength. That tells me that you understand that he's not only your best defenseman, but your best defensive defenseman.

So it's not as though our coach can't tell that Subban's a good defensive player, seeing as how throughout the game he's playing PK when we're most vulnerable defensively. This leaves me with only two explanations, neither of which look very good on MT.

1) He still thinks that Subban is somehow too gaffe-prone to play in tight situations at the end of the game. This could be his thought process, but seeing as how this decision is completely inconsistent logically from his decision to play Subban in the D-zone throughout the game it paints him in a very bad light strategically. No matter what Therrien's opinion of Subban is he comes out looking bad here: he's either playing a defenceman who he believes to be gaffe-prone in situations where that defenceman is bound to fail, or he's not playing what he believes to be a great defensive defenseman at the end of tight games. Both sides of that are equally head-scratching.

2) He's doing it to "send a message". There are lots of theories here: he doesn't like the player (ego, personality clash, etc); he doesn't like the player's "attitude" (racially motivated or not); he doesn't think Subban plays within the 'team concept'; we can even give him the benefit of the doubt and go with something like 'he thinks it will be good for the Subban's development'. It doesn't matter which option we go with, because in every case the response is the same: Therrien's concerns about one player should not override his concerns for the team as a whole.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't like Subban or if he's trying to help him in some roundabout way that we don't understand, it doesn't change the fact that it's hurting our team to have him sitting on the bench as much as he does. One single player's development (hockey-wise, emotional, whatever) should not come before team success. As an example, let's say that we take it as a given that Galchenyuk would develop better as a centre if we play him at centre now. But now let's say he plays five or six games at centre and is absolutely terrible each time, his line doesn't produce anything and he's getting scored on all over the place. I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be too long before they moved him back to the wing where he had been playing well. It might not be quite as good for his development, sure, but at some point team success in the now needs to trump a single player's potential future needs.

It's the exact same thing with Subban - I don't care what you're trying to do with him, MT, but whatever it is it's not worth us losing out on his skills right now.

[roy_133]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

[Noob616]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

Glad to see we have a management team that values character.

[BeanCountingHab]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

It's really hard to believe, but honestly, there aren't that many other plausible explanations.

[Habs_Hockey_Nutz]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

A travesty... maybe they want Subban to walk eh... dumb-dadumb-dumb... DUMBBBBBBB!

[habby4ever]

In RDS today:

With the possible return of Travis Moen, coach Michel Therrien has revamped his lines.

Galchenyuk-Eller-Moen

Gallagher -White-Parros.

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Bourque,

Bournival-Plekanec-Gionta

or

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta

Desharnais Bournival-Bourque.

[Manatee-X]

Glad to see we have a management team that values character.

Hah! I'm also glad we're getting Subban to buy into the team concept. That's obviously something we value around here.

In RDS today:

With the possible return of Travis Moen, coach Michel Therrien has revamped his lines.

Galchenyuk-Eller-Moen

Gallagher -White-Parros.

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Bourque,

Bournival-Plekanec-Gionta

or

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta

Desharnais Bournival-Bourque.

White and Parros with...... Gallagher?

#whatisthisidonteven

Edit: looks like those lines were messed up a bit, and the EGG line is back together: http://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/leblanc-et-st-pierre-c%C3%A9d%C3%A9s-des-changements-effectu%C3%A9s-1.682288

[BeanCountingHab]

"I will not comment on the ice time of any player," head coach Michel Therrien said Wednesday morning when questioned about Subban's minutes. Therrien did, however, add that Subban played "a hell of a game for us...exactly what we needed from him."

This unfortunately doesn't make things any less confusing.

[FirstStar]

"I will not comment on the ice time of any player," head coach Michel Therrien said Wednesday morning when questioned about Subban's minutes. Therrien did, however, add that Subban played "a hell of a game for us...exactly what we needed from him."

This unfortunately doesn't make things any less confusing.

I didn't like MT's coaching last night, like I said in another thread, this is one of the worst coaching jobs MT has had tht I have seen.

Constant line juggling was ridiculous, we're lucky to have gotten to OT. At one point he even had Patches on the 4th line. Don't know if he was caught in the middle of a line change or if that was MT's plan, but it didn't work.

In all honesty, it looked like the blues blueline was struggling at times last night, instead of going with trios that knew each other (to take advantage of a shaky d-core), he juggled lines. I would've maybe gone back with the EGG line (they always bring a lot of energy) and put patches next to Pleks and Gio. These guys have been with the habs a while, they must've played with each other at some point, in practice at the very least.

I didn't like MT's choice in the shootout either. GallyA was a good choice, he's been wowing his teammates in practice with his dekes, so it was worth a shot. Gallagher and Patches though, not sure I would've gone with those 2. I love GallyB, but he's an energy guy who crashes the net and grabs juicy rebounds. He's very good in game action, but he isn't a finesse, stick handling type player, which is what you want in shootouts. Patches, same thing... He has a very good shot, has beaten man a tender with his quick release, but not sure shootouts are his strong point. Gio's been our best shootout guy over the last few years and his line's been hot as of late, I would've gone with Gio. I have a theory about small players vs big players in shootouts, not getting into it now, but I would've gone with a player who has soft hands.

Halak 9 out of 10 times is going to shut you down low along the ice, he's very strong post to post low. But he's a small tender who plays hybrid/butterfly, which means when he's down on his knees, the whole top half of the net is open. Our shooters would've had to get Halak to move (hard to do, he's very patient) through a deke and get the shot high.

Anyways, we got 1 point. Could've easily lost the game in regulation had price not kept us in the game.

All that said, PK did leave early in the game after blocking a shot. Possible PK wasn't 100% last night, that could explain his lack of icetime last night, but doesn't explain the other games-unless PK's been playing with a minor injury since the start of the season.

[ramcharger440]

interesting interview after practice on rds really felt pk had a strong game last night.

missed bean's earlier post

[CANADIENS27]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

Is it possible we lose Subban because of the way Therrien is handling him?

[habby4ever]

Thanks for sharing, Habby. To me this was the most interesting part of that article:

So it's not as though our coach can't tell that Subban's a good defensive player, seeing as how throughout the game he's playing PK when we're most vulnerable defensively. This leaves me with only two explanations, neither of which look very good on MT.

1) He still thinks that Subban is somehow too gaffe-prone to play in tight situations at the end of the game. This could be his thought process, but seeing as how this decision is completely inconsistent logically from his decision to play Subban in the D-zone throughout the game it paints him in a very bad light strategically. No matter what Therrien's opinion of Subban is he comes out looking bad here: he's either playing a defenceman who he believes to be gaffe-prone in situations where that defenceman is bound to fail, or he's not playing what he believes to be a great defensive defenseman at the end of tight games. Both sides of that are equally head-scratching.

2) He's doing it to "send a message". There are lots of theories here: he doesn't like the player (ego, personality clash, etc); he doesn't like the player's "attitude" (racially motivated or not); he doesn't think Subban plays within the 'team concept'; we can even give him the benefit of the doubt and go with something like 'he thinks it will be good for the Subban's development'. It doesn't matter which option we go with, because in every case the response is the same: Therrien's concerns about one player should not override his concerns for the team as a whole.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't like Subban or if he's trying to help him in some roundabout way that we don't understand, it doesn't change the fact that it's hurting our team to have him sitting on the bench as much as he does. One single player's development (hockey-wise, emotional, whatever) should not come before team success. As an example, let's say that we take it as a given that Galchenyuk would develop better as a centre if we play him at centre now. But now let's say he plays five or six games at centre and is absolutely terrible each time, his line doesn't produce anything and he's getting scored on all over the place. I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be too long before they moved him back to the wing where he had been playing well. It might not be quite as good for his development, sure, but at some point team success in the now needs to trump a single player's potential future needs.

It's the exact same thing with Subban - I don't care what you're trying to do with him, MT, but whatever it is it's not worth us losing out on his skills right now.

Could all this Subban discipline from MT go back as far as the Calgary game? Subban took two penalty’s late in the game against Calgary in the third period, holding against Chris Butler at 6:49 and

Cross checking against Lance Bouma at 18:11 of the third. Consequently losing to Calgary 3-2. It is only one game but it seems, that since that day, MT does not seem to trust Subban late in a game. Also, reading the forum posts, MT has insinuated that a defenseman might have cost them a game. One mistake does not determine a seasons, results. MT says, you learn from your mistakes, than you move on. One might think there has to be much more, to this. I do know this, that the fans are upset with the Subban situation. You browse, over the internet, and even other teams fans, are puzzled with this problem. Subban will certainly, speak up for himself. There is no problem with talent. Personality conflicts, maybe??????

Old School Respect issues, we are all still guessing at this point?

[Guest habs1952]

To be fair I don't think he had a choice with the penalty shot choice. TSN was saying on that type of call it has to go to the last guy to touch the puck.

Rest of it is getting pretty inexcusable though. In a game where we were getting beaten 64%-34% in possession we had our best possession defenseman on the bench in place of Douglas Murray. Hard to keep losing games with Subban on the bench, Parros getting shifts late in games, it just doesn't seem to end. What was St-Pierre doing on the PP late in the game, it just doesn't seem like there's any sense behind some of these decisions.

TSN got it wrong:

63.5 Penalty Shot - If the goal post is deliberately displaced by a

goalkeeper or player during the course of a “breakaway,” a penalty

shot will be awarded to the non-offending team, which shot shall be

taken by the player last in possession of the puck.

If by reason of insufficient time in the regular playing time or by

reason of penalties already imposed, the minor penalty assessed to a

player for deliberately displacing his own goal post cannot be served

in its entirety within the regular playing time of the game or at any time

in overtime, a penalty shot shall be awarded against the offending

team.

[Guest habs1952]

Bob McKenzie: Some around the league believe there may be a link between Therrien's recent usage of Subban & upcoming contract negotiations

If true that's abysmal.

There may not be contract negotiations. With the way things seem to be going with Therrien, who appears to be looking to run PK out of town, Subban may wait to become an RFA. It is totally possible a team out there would throw a very lucrative offer sheet his way.

[FirstStar]

Could all this Subban discipline from MT go back as far as the Calgary game? Subban took two penalty’s late in the game against Calgary in the third period, holding against Chris Butler at 6:49 and

Cross checking against Lance Bouma at 18:11 of the third. Consequently losing to Calgary 3-2. It is only one game but it seems, that since that day, MT does not seem to trust Subban late in a game. Also, reading the forum posts, MT has insinuated that a defenseman might have cost them a game. One mistake does not determine a seasons, results. MT says, you learn from your mistakes, than you move on. One might think there has to be much more, to this. I do know this, that the fans are upset with the Subban situation. You browse, over the internet, and even other teams fans, are puzzled with this problem. Subban will certainly, speak up for himself. There is no problem with talent. Personality conflicts, maybe??????

Old School Respect issues, we are all still guessing at this point?

There could be something to that. If that is the case, PK didn't do himself any favors when played in the final minutes of the Minny game. In the final 2 minutes we were stuck in our end and didn't even get to the ozone due to PK's mishandling of the puck (twice).

You said it yourself in your post, have to learn from mistakes. And PK made a risky play in the final minutes of a close game against minny. This was after a bad decision in the flames game.

Did he flat out lose us the game?

No of course he didn't, but he did foil any attempt to tie up the minny game by mishandling the puck (never even got into minny's zone, barely got to neutral ice) and did the same thing in Calgary with his penalties.

I know we all love PK, he's undoubtedly our best player since the days of Roy.

But if it were any other player (not named PK Subban), who had done the aforementioned mistakes and risks, would we be defending them or throwing them under the bus?

We all know the answer to that, after White costed us a few games last season by letting his emotions run wild, it was all anyone could talk about.

Are we honestly saying that PK shouldn't have to answer for his faults because he won the norris last season and he's a star?

These are the things the Olympic committee will be taking into consideration when choosing their team. It's not like they have a lack of right handed offensive dmen to choose from.

I want Subban to represent Canada and our habs in Sochi. But in all honesty, if he continues to take these risks and bad decisions late in close games, he'll only have himself to blame if he isn't chosen for sochi. Again, they have quite a few right handed dmen to choose from.

i think the thing that's most frustrating for me and probably the coaching staff, is that these late game decisions are avoidable and that Subban is our best chance to tie it up, but not when he's taking unnecessary risks and making bad decisions. I'm sure the coaching staff struggle with that dilemma every game.

Fans have a tendency to turn on a player really fast. And before someone tells me it isn't going to happen with PK, it happened with Patrick Roy after he won them 2 cups (last cup was only a season and a bit removed) Right now PK's coming off a norris winning season, it's the reg season, fans are thinking we'll get it next game, all is forgiven. But if we're in the cup finals, game 7, OT and PK takes a dumb, avoidable penalty, that results in a PP goal and a cup for our opposition, I doubt that the Montreal fans would be so forgiving. Wait 25+ years for another cup and it comes down to a dumb avoidable play?

Just look how the nuck fans have turned on Lou and the sedins for their performances in the post season the last few years. Every time Lou touched the puck in the Olympics the Vancouver local chanted, "Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu". He was obviously a fan favorite, but after several chokes in close games that ultimately led to early playoff exits, the fans turned on him. And they had reason to be upset, one series they were a game away from winning the series and blew it.

I know it sucks and seems illogical not to play your best player in close games. But if the coaching staff don't make him accountable and forgive him for his blunders because he's a fan favorite and a norris winning dman, then it will happen again, may not be a regular season game next time, may be the bigger stage.

Like Santayana's old saying goes (paraphrasing)... "Those who don't learn from past mistakes are destined to repeat them".

If every kid who came into the league were flawless and knew it all, we wouldn't have a need for a coach. But young stars constantly make mistakes, it's up to our coaching staff to ensure they don;t happen again at worse times.

[BigTed3]

Therrien refused to answer questions about Subban's ice time because he doesn't have a good explanation. Either he thinks Subban is a bigger liability than Murray, Gorges, Bouillon, Diaz, and Markov, which makes him look pretty awful as a coach and judge of hockey talent; or he's trying to protect Bergevin ahead of contract negotiations, which means he's willing to risk sacrificing wins for money; or he just plain doesn't like Subban, which is a problem if he's letting it affect his judgment. The major issue I have with this last possibility is that it was clear from the get-go that this was the case even before Bergevin made the hire. Therrien was one of Subban's biggest detractors in the media, without even meeting the kid, and the appearance of things now is that he's allowed that pre-formed opinion to carry over into his management of the team. It was a major concern I had with the hiring of Therrien last year and if it's true (and Therrien has failed to offer another logical alternative by denying requests for answers), then it's on both the coach for acting that way and on the GM for hiring the coach when his dislike for the star player was known ahead of time.

In addition to being the reigning Norris trophy winner, Subban's numbers this year show no drop-off. He's second in the league in scoring for D men, first on the team ahead of every single forward we have, and 21st overall with an average of nearly a point per game. He ranks first among D men in scoring on the powerplay. His Corsi at ES is 20th best in the league among D men with 10 games or more, with several guys ahead of him being propped up by their partners. His Corsi relative is 7th, indicating not only how dominant a player he is but how much trouble we're in when he's not on the ice. And those possession metrics don't measure his invaluable contribution to the PP. Compare Subban's Corsi of over 10 to those of Murray and Bouillon, who post -26 and -21 respectively. Bouillon has been on for all of 1 even strength goal for this year and Murray in his shortened season has yet to be on the ice for a single one. In the last 5 minutes of a tie game, are these the players Therrien is favoring over Subban? Sure, we didn't lose the game in regulation last night, but the last time I checked, the object of the game was to win and it's hard to win a tie game if you have players whose presence on the ice precludes the ability to score and who allow 20-30 extra shot attempts against for every 60 minutes they play.

So maybe Therrien's concerned Subban will take a bad penalty? Well it's true that Subban has taken more penalties than average, but not as many per ice time as Murray. And what might surprise some people is that of the 6 defencemen playing last night, not a single one has a better ratio of penalties drawn to penalties taken than Subban. Not a single one. So any way you cut it, Therrien's possible belief that Subban is weak defensively or that he's a liability in some way just doesn't hold. There is no good argument against keeping Subban glued to the bench in key moments of the game and Therrien knows it, which is why he won't answer the questions and which is why it's becoming sneakingly more suspicious that the decisions being made are more personal in nature than they are anything else.

[Graeme-1]

Therrien refused to answer questions about Subban's ice time because he doesn't have a good explanation. Either he thinks Subban is a bigger liability than Murray, Gorges, Bouillon, Diaz, and Markov, which makes him look pretty awful as a coach and judge of hockey talent; or he's trying to protect Bergevin ahead of contract negotiations, which means he's willing to risk sacrificing wins for money;

I hope our GM and coach aren't that dumb. It's a ridiculous strategy because PK holds all the power here. If he's not happy (and given how he's being treated, that's a distinct possibility) rather than sign a 7 year deal he goes to arbitration, gets a nice 1-2 year pay day (arbitrator probably won't just ignore his trophy case, and the high offensive numbers will work in his favor) and then cashes in big as a UFA with another team.

We should be trying to make Subban to want to stay here for a reasonable price. That doesn't mean not coaching him or giving him a free pass. But the way MT called him out to the media is a good example of something that just isn't helpful in any way or form.

[40andcounting]

This is ridiculous. If MT runs PK out of town and screws up the contract renewal because of his inexplicable antics, I'll be devastated. We CAN NOT LOSE PK Subban. We cannot have a repeat of Tremblay/Roy. We WILL enter another dark age. I used to be worried we'd have to overpay PK for a 7-8 year deal. Now I don't care how much we have to pay - I just want to avoid RFA or a 2 year bridge leveraged by PK and his agent leading to UFA.

This could be a disaster. And it all comes down to MT. Please for the love of god rectify this situation.

[jennifer_rocket]

BigTed3. Can you explain Corsi to me? What is it exactly?

[habby4ever]

There could be something to that. If that is the case, PK didn't do himself any favors when played in the final minutes of the Minny game. In the final 2 minutes we were stuck in our end and didn't even get to the ozone due to PK's mishandling of the puck (twice).

You said it yourself in your post, have to learn from mistakes. And PK made a risky play in the final minutes of a close game against minny. This was after a bad decision in the flames game.

Did he flat out lose us the game?

No of course he didn't, but he did foil any attempt to tie up the minny game by mishandling the puck (never even got into minny's zone, barely got to neutral ice) and did the same thing in Calgary with his penalties.

I know we all love PK, he's undoubtedly our best player since the days of Roy.

But if it were any other player (not named PK Subban), who had done the aforementioned mistakes and risks, would we be defending them or throwing them under the bus?

We all know the answer to that, after White costed us a few games last season by letting his emotions run wild, it was all anyone could talk about.

Are we honestly saying that PK shouldn't have to answer for his faults because he won the norris last season and he's a star?

These are the things the Olympic committee will be taking into consideration when choosing their team. It's not like they have a lack of right handed offensive dmen to choose from.

I want Subban to represent Canada and our habs in Sochi. But in all honesty, if he continues to take these risks and bad decisions late in close games, he'll only have himself to blame if he isn't chosen for sochi. Again, they have quite a few right handed dmen to choose from.

i think the thing that's most frustrating for me and probably the coaching staff, is that these late game decisions are avoidable and that Subban is our best chance to tie it up, but not when he's taking unnecessary risks and making bad decisions. I'm sure the coaching staff struggle with that dilemma every game.

Fans have a tendency to turn on a player really fast. And before someone tells me it isn't going to happen with PK, it happened with Patrick Roy after he won them 2 cups (last cup was only a season and a bit removed) Right now PK's coming off a norris winning season, it's the reg season, fans are thinking we'll get it next game, all is forgiven. But if we're in the cup finals, game 7, OT and PK takes a dumb, avoidable penalty, that results in a PP goal and a cup for our opposition, I doubt that the Montreal fans would be so forgiving. Wait 25+ years for another cup and it comes down to a dumb avoidable play?

Just look how the nuck fans have turned on Lou and the sedins for their performances in the post season the last few years. Every time Lou touched the puck in the Olympics the Vancouver local chanted, "Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu". He was obviously a fan favorite, but after several chokes in close games that ultimately led to early playoff exits, the fans turned on him. And they had reason to be upset, one series they were a game away from winning the series and blew it.

I know it sucks and seems illogical not to play your best player in close games. But if the coaching staff don't make him accountable and forgive him for his blunders because he's a fan favorite and a norris winning dman, then it will happen again, may not be a regular season game next time, may be the bigger stage.

Like Santayana's old saying goes (paraphrasing)... "Those who don't learn from past mistakes are destined to repeat them".

If every kid who came into the league were flawless and knew it all, we wouldn't have a need for a coach. But young stars constantly make mistakes, it's up to our coaching staff to ensure they don;t happen again at worse times.

He has the talent, so the maturity and wisdom, will come.

Each year, he has improved a little. Patience is a virtue.

We will wait, lol. What do you think about the contract

negotiations theory, that the media presents, as a tactic

to keep the price down on Subban's negotiations, 2 years

versus long term????

[BeanCountingHab]

BigTed3. Can you explain Corsi to me? What is it exactly?

I'm not Ted, but in a nutshell:

Corsi = shots directed towards the oposing net - shots directed towards your net

Fenwick (which I kind of prefer) is similar but it pulls out blocked shots (ie: if a shot is blocked it doesn't count as a shot directed towards your net).

Both are proxies for posession since a positive Corsi/Fenwick means your team took more shots than they allowed while you were on the ice, meaning they probably had the puck more.

Nothing is perfect, but Fenwick close (which is Fenwick when the score is tied or within 1 goal) has shown to be a pretty great predictor of team success. There are always a few outliers but usually the teams that make the playoffs end up being some of the better Fenwick teams that year.

[jennifer_rocket]

I'm not Ted, but in a nutshell:

Corsi = shots directed towards the oposing net - shots directed towards your net

Fenwick (which I kind of prefer) is similar but it pulls out blocked shots (ie: if a shot is blocked it doesn't count as a shot directed towards your net).

Both are proxies for posession since a positive Corsi/Fenwick means your team took more shots than they allowed while you were on the ice, meaning they probably had the puck more.

Nothing is perfect, but Fenwick close (which is Fenwick when the score is tied or within 1 goal) has shown to be a pretty great predictor of team success. There are always a few outliers but usually the teams that make the playoffs end up being some of the better Fenwick teams that year.

Thank you, sir.

[careypricefan]

Do you all think that Michel Therrien is still the right choice?

If not, who would you prefer?